I've actually been thinking about this some more since my original post and I hope that they do try testing some 8 man group mechanics during alpha. I know coming up with 6 man groups could be difficult at times but you could get by with 4-5 if you were good at your class and appropriately geared. So if they were to follow that methodology like others have suggested and designed it so 8 was the limit but you could get by with 6 at a slower pace, I would be good with that. I would be interested in what kind of game design they come up with to warrant 8 man groups outside of just needing the extra DPS.
Warlored said:I understand that and I previously read the faq. Due to a lot of missing information I just don't see how you can adjust pros/cons toward anything. It's all up in the air at this point. I too have never played a game with any group size over 6 BUT I have never played a game that is going beyond the holy trinity and making support/cc it's own role.
I understand it's all a guessing game, but strongly feel the appropriate number for a group will be largely dependant on the game itself.
In previous games you sacrificed DPS or that cc/support role. Perhaps in Pantheon you NEED that CC/support AND extra DPS. I don't know??
Thanks for replying.
Rift definitely had support as its own role in groups. They were mostly semi-healers with buff/debuffs, at least thats what the Bard soul was for. There were others but im not sure about their specific abilities.
I dont know about CC being part of that Holy Trinity thing, where would the other term "glass-canon" fit into all that? Would be interesting to play a game without an actual DPS though. Everyone has the same damage potential, equally important roles, no DPS overpopulation and *gasp* no artificial rage timers! OMG DO IT!
While I am thrilled that CC will be important again, I want to remark that needing a CC is not a novel concept to groups. Even in vanilla/BC WoW (yes I used that game on purpose :) ) you had to make sure at least one of the players (usually DPS) was a CC for 5 man content.
Kayo said:Warlored said:I understand that and I previously read the faq. Due to a lot of missing information I just don't see how you can adjust pros/cons toward anything. It's all up in the air at this point. I too have never played a game with any group size over 6 BUT I have never played a game that is going beyond the holy trinity and making support/cc it's own role.
I understand it's all a guessing game, but strongly feel the appropriate number for a group will be largely dependant on the game itself.
In previous games you sacrificed DPS or that cc/support role. Perhaps in Pantheon you NEED that CC/support AND extra DPS. I don't know??
Thanks for replying.
Rift definitely had support as its own role in groups. They were mostly semi-healers with buff/debuffs, at least thats what the Bard soul was for. There were others but im not sure about their specific abilities.
I dont know about CC being part of that Holy Trinity thing, where would the other term "glass-canon" fit into all that? Would be interesting to play a game without an actual DPS though. Everyone has the same damage potential, equally important roles, no DPS overpopulation and *gasp* no artificial rage timers! OMG DO IT!
Glass cannon refers to nothing more that a toon....Wizzy rogue etc that is a massive damage dealer but cant take damage. They hit like a cannon and shatter like glass. CC was 100% part of the Trinity when EQ launched, it wasnt dropped until later on in the life of WoW and other mmos that moved dps to a more prominante role. And in no way would I ever play a game that has no DPS but everyone doing that as part of their job...truely thats mostly what the MMO world is. When I play a healer, I want to heal...not dps. When I am a buffer / debuffer that is what I want to do, not DPS....DPS is fun for some people and not others, thats the beauty of the class system...you can find one that fits your play style. I do agree with the no Rage Timers...how stupid is that really?
Sevens said:Kayo said:Warlored said:I understand that and I previously read the faq. Due to a lot of missing information I just don't see how you can adjust pros/cons toward anything. It's all up in the air at this point. I too have never played a game with any group size over 6 BUT I have never played a game that is going beyond the holy trinity and making support/cc it's own role.
I understand it's all a guessing game, but strongly feel the appropriate number for a group will be largely dependant on the game itself.
In previous games you sacrificed DPS or that cc/support role. Perhaps in Pantheon you NEED that CC/support AND extra DPS. I don't know??
Thanks for replying.
Rift definitely had support as its own role in groups. They were mostly semi-healers with buff/debuffs, at least thats what the Bard soul was for. There were others but im not sure about their specific abilities.
I dont know about CC being part of that Holy Trinity thing, where would the other term "glass-canon" fit into all that? Would be interesting to play a game without an actual DPS though. Everyone has the same damage potential, equally important roles, no DPS overpopulation and *gasp* no artificial rage timers! OMG DO IT!
Glass cannon refers to nothing more that a toon....Wizzy rogue etc that is a massive damage dealer but cant take damage. They hit like a cannon and shatter like glass. CC was 100% part of the Trinity when EQ launched, it wasnt dropped until later on in the life of WoW and other mmos that moved dps to a more prominante role. And in no way would I ever play a game that has no DPS but everyone doing that as part of their job...truely thats mostly what the MMO world is. When I play a healer, I want to heal...not dps. When I am a buffer / debuffer that is what I want to do, not DPS....DPS is fun for some people and not others, thats the beauty of the class system...you can find one that fits your play style. I do agree with the no Rage Timers...how stupid is that really?
CC/support is very important in the Trinity. Like Seven said EQ1 and EQ2 you had to depend on it in almost all the raid encounters and quite a few group settings. Either controlling ADDS or supporting healers DPS with buffs that allow them to perform at there class better. It used to be almost impossible to clear a lot of content with out CC/Support.
I also agree the class system is great. I hate playing DPS classes like Mage or scout I much rather Offtank/paladin or a support class like bard. The class system allows me to do this and enjoy the class I play.
Just repeating what everyone one else has already said, but yes, DPS was never part of the 'trinity' until WoW came out. (WoW had such weak CC to begin with, (mage could only polymorph a single human or animal target, rogue sap only one target etc - now WoW's CC consists of the tank pulling the whole room using AoE taunts while all the Dps in the group just spam AoE abilities and stare at damage meters) CC was nowhere near as important in WoW as it was in EQ). It was always Tank/Healer/CC, and CC was always needed in higher level groups in certain areas - groups wouldn't even go into Sebilis or Karnor's for example without one since the multiple mobs would just overwhelm them.
Sevens said:Glass cannon refers to nothing more that a toon....Wizzy rogue etc that is a massive damage dealer but cant take damage. They hit like a cannon and shatter like glass. CC was 100% part of the Trinity when EQ launched, it wasnt dropped until later on in the life of WoW and other mmos that moved dps to a more prominante role. And in no way would I ever play a game that has no DPS but everyone doing that as part of their job...truely thats mostly what the MMO world is. When I play a healer, I want to heal...not dps. When I am a buffer / debuffer that is what I want to do, not DPS....DPS is fun for some people and not others, thats the beauty of the class system...you can find one that fits your play style. I do agree with the no Rage Timers...how stupid is that really?
My whole point with the glass cannon thing was its name alone suggests its a damage dealer. High damage, paper armor. Not denying CC was or is part of the original Trinity but the term glass-cannon itself suggests there was a class (or classes) before WoW, probably some kind of caster, which far out damaged the rest.
As for the DPS thing, I meant as in no specific role for DPS. Obviously a Healer wouldnt be doing damage but a tank likely will ragardless. They cant just be expected to pop defensive cooldowns all the time. CC cant just stare at rooted mobs all day. Support cant just stare at timers. All classes, even healers will be able to do damage. Basically making DPS a secondary afterthought, no matter the class. Much as I like seeing those massive crits pop... having DPS as a primary role is how those filthy Rage Timers came to be. Id even argue it can bring back a practical use for hybrids. How did EQ do it before with no official DD role?
Even in EQ every class could do damage. Some times tanks can put out huge amounts of damage due to the buffs but that primary concern was TANK you never yelled at your tank because he wasnt top ten in the DPS you yelled at the tank if he pulled wrong or spun a mob to face a raid. CC could also put out damage and they were expected to but they were also expected to keep mobs stunned and under control.
EQ had the enchanter at launch (Almost certain) Which was responsible for CC. EQ2 had the Coercer and the Illusionest that was a support/CC class but they could still put out some damage depending on the encounter.
Glass Cannon would most often be asscioted with a mage someone that put out huge damage but if they got hit they died in pretty much one shot. Rogues werent really considered it as they might survive one or 2 hits before dieing.
Personally of the opinion that 6 is an ideal number for group content. Tuning for 8 makes it harder to fill that group, think a year after launch when the out of the way dungeon thats not the "popular" one has some content you want to do. I know talking 5 others to Dalnir was sometimes a PITA, can't imagine talking 7 others out...
6 gives you your quad and 2 extra spots for anyone to fill, tho I suspect they'll be filled mostly with DPS roles.
Kayo said:Sevens said:Glass cannon refers to nothing more that a toon....Wizzy rogue etc that is a massive damage dealer but cant take damage. They hit like a cannon and shatter like glass. CC was 100% part of the Trinity when EQ launched, it wasnt dropped until later on in the life of WoW and other mmos that moved dps to a more prominante role. And in no way would I ever play a game that has no DPS but everyone doing that as part of their job...truely thats mostly what the MMO world is. When I play a healer, I want to heal...not dps. When I am a buffer / debuffer that is what I want to do, not DPS....DPS is fun for some people and not others, thats the beauty of the class system...you can find one that fits your play style. I do agree with the no Rage Timers...how stupid is that really?
My whole point with the glass cannon thing was its name alone suggests its a damage dealer. High damage, paper armor. Not denying CC was or is part of the original Trinity but the term glass-cannon itself suggests there was a class (or classes) before WoW, probably some kind of caster, which far out damaged the rest.
As for the DPS thing, I meant as in no specific role for DPS. Obviously a Healer wouldnt be doing damage but a tank likely will ragardless. They cant just be expected to pop defensive cooldowns all the time. CC cant just stare at rooted mobs all day. Support cant just stare at timers. All classes, even healers will be able to do damage. Basically making DPS a secondary afterthought, no matter the class. Much as I like seeing those massive crits pop... having DPS as a primary role is how those filthy Rage Timers came to be. Id even argue it can bring back a practical use for hybrids. How did EQ do it before with no official DD role?
It doesn't sound like you played EQ because you're way off. Group and encounter depending, in dungeons it was rare for shamans or druids or enchanters to do much active damage, and almost unheard of for clerics unless they were nuking undead. In small groups, a shaman or druid might drop a DoT, while the vast majority of what they did was passively assist with thorns/haste and buffs. Their active or direct damage was routinely 0. Beyond quite a low level, if your cleric was casting their wrath nuke or your shaman was meleeing, they were doing it wrong.
If you were not a melee class, pet class or wizard, DPS was routinely completely outside the scope of your roll. It wasn't a second thought, it wasn't a thought at all.
It's all about efficiency and class roll dependencies. If a shaman can use their mana hasting and slowing, and that is more efficient than them DoTing or nuking(which it was in EQ in most non solo situations beyond low level), then that is absolutely what they will be doing.
What you're talking about seems contradictory to one of the core tenets of ROTF. I fully expect there to be multiple classes, that outside of limited situations, will not care much about doing any "active" damage. They won't be nuking or DoTing or meleeing.
I'd like to see eight person groups, but largely because of the diversity/specialization that's going to be available in Pantheon. As an example, having two clerics with different disciplines or specializations seems a lot more viable if you have more than just 4 slots to fill with other classes.
Larger groups may mean that we can accommodate more players in popular zones. Back in EQ, I always felt that some zones were flawed in that there was really only room for 6 people of any level range in the zone. Castle Mistmoore was a prime example. There were maybe 4 distinct camps, but they were progressively tougher so you moved from one to the next as you leveled up, but you could spend hours in the zone LFG waiting for a slot to open up in the appropriate group.
Kayo said:Sevens said:Glass cannon refers to nothing more that a toon....Wizzy rogue etc that is a massive damage dealer but cant take damage. They hit like a cannon and shatter like glass. CC was 100% part of the Trinity when EQ launched, it wasnt dropped until later on in the life of WoW and other mmos that moved dps to a more prominante role. And in no way would I ever play a game that has no DPS but everyone doing that as part of their job...truely thats mostly what the MMO world is. When I play a healer, I want to heal...not dps. When I am a buffer / debuffer that is what I want to do, not DPS....DPS is fun for some people and not others, thats the beauty of the class system...you can find one that fits your play style. I do agree with the no Rage Timers...how stupid is that really?
My whole point with the glass cannon thing was its name alone suggests its a damage dealer. High damage, paper armor. Not denying CC was or is part of the original Trinity but the term glass-cannon itself suggests there was a class (or classes) before WoW, probably some kind of caster, which far out damaged the rest.
As for the DPS thing, I meant as in no specific role for DPS. Obviously a Healer wouldnt be doing damage but a tank likely will ragardless. They cant just be expected to pop defensive cooldowns all the time. CC cant just stare at rooted mobs all day. Support cant just stare at timers. All classes, even healers will be able to do damage. Basically making DPS a secondary afterthought, no matter the class. Much as I like seeing those massive crits pop... having DPS as a primary role is how those filthy Rage Timers came to be. Id even argue it can bring back a practical use for hybrids. How did EQ do it before with no official DD role?
Im not sure Im understanding you...a glass cannon was a dps class. Yes it was but DPS wasnt part of what was considered the Trinity. Tanks Heals and CC were NEEDED, for most content you couldnt do them with out those three classes. DPS is what you added only after you had your Trinity set and any Tom Dick or Harry could fill the role and it wasnt a big deal. In EQ yes a CC was expected to stare at mezzed mobs all day...if mez breaks things get ugly fast, and not only that, once you have the mobs locked down you best sit on your ass and regen some mana (no food or drink to fill it up, you HAD to med) because those mez timers are counting down faster than your mana is regening. That is, to me, what is missing from most modern MMOS....managing your resources be it Mana, stamina or other, now days its not ever an issue
Krixus said:Kayo said:Sevens said:Glass cannon refers to nothing more that a toon....Wizzy rogue etc that is a massive damage dealer but cant take damage. They hit like a cannon and shatter like glass. CC was 100% part of the Trinity when EQ launched, it wasnt dropped until later on in the life of WoW and other mmos that moved dps to a more prominante role. And in no way would I ever play a game that has no DPS but everyone doing that as part of their job...truely thats mostly what the MMO world is. When I play a healer, I want to heal...not dps. When I am a buffer / debuffer that is what I want to do, not DPS....DPS is fun for some people and not others, thats the beauty of the class system...you can find one that fits your play style. I do agree with the no Rage Timers...how stupid is that really?
My whole point with the glass cannon thing was its name alone suggests its a damage dealer. High damage, paper armor. Not denying CC was or is part of the original Trinity but the term glass-cannon itself suggests there was a class (or classes) before WoW, probably some kind of caster, which far out damaged the rest.
As for the DPS thing, I meant as in no specific role for DPS. Obviously a Healer wouldnt be doing damage but a tank likely will ragardless. They cant just be expected to pop defensive cooldowns all the time. CC cant just stare at rooted mobs all day. Support cant just stare at timers. All classes, even healers will be able to do damage. Basically making DPS a secondary afterthought, no matter the class. Much as I like seeing those massive crits pop... having DPS as a primary role is how those filthy Rage Timers came to be. Id even argue it can bring back a practical use for hybrids. How did EQ do it before with no official DD role?
It doesn't sound like you played EQ because you're way off. Group and encounter depending, in dungeons it was rare for shamans or druids or enchanters to do much active damage, and almost unheard of for clerics unless they were nuking undead. In small groups, a shaman or druid might drop a DoT, while the vast majority of what they did was passively assist with thorns/haste and buffs. Their active or direct damage was routinely 0. Beyond quite a low level, if your cleric was casting their wrath nuke or your shaman was meleeing, they were doing it wrong.
If you were not a melee class, pet class or wizard, DPS was routinely completely outside the scope of your roll. It wasn't a second thought, it wasn't a thought at all.
It's all about efficiency and class roll dependencies. If a shaman can use their mana hasting and slowing, and that is more efficient than them DoTing or nuking(which it was in EQ in most non solo situations beyond low level), then that is absolutely what they will be doing.
What you're talking about seems contradictory to one of the core tenets of ROTF. I fully expect there to be multiple classes, that outside of limited situations, will not care much about doing any "active" damage. They won't be nuking or DoTing or meleeing.
This here ^^^ couldnt have said it better myself
I suppose I stand corrected then since I had always thought the Holy Trinity was something different. So with that, how is the Quintrinity going to change that perspective. Does this mean the role of "DPS" is differen't? Does this mean that you will absolutely, no questions asked HAVE to have a DPS? It must have some meaning to call it something different.
Warlored said:I suppose I stand corrected then since I had always thought the Holy Trinity was something different. So with that, how is the Quintrinity going to change that perspective. Does this mean the role of "DPS" is differen't? Does this mean that you will absolutely, no questions asked HAVE to have a DPS? It must have some meaning to call it something different.
From what I am understanding it will be Tank, Heal, CC then Utility (puller buffer debuffer etc)
Dps is once again what you use to fill in the group as they are usually the most played toons so easeier to get for groups
Sevens said:Warlored said:I suppose I stand corrected then since I had always thought the Holy Trinity was something different. So with that, how is the Quintrinity going to change that perspective. Does this mean the role of "DPS" is differen't? Does this mean that you will absolutely, no questions asked HAVE to have a DPS? It must have some meaning to call it something different.
From what I am understanding it will be Tank, Heal, CC then Utility (puller buffer debuffer etc)
Dps is once again what you use to fill in the group as they are usually the most played toons so easeier to get for groups
Hmm, interesting. It looks like that would mean you'd never several options for every role. Like at least 3 classes per role, idk? What would be considered a "support" role? I've always considered classes like Bard, enchanter, druid to be within that but 2 of those fill the CC role. Maybe more classes are going to have these abilities. hmm
Only time will tell I guess.
Warlored said:Sevens said:Warlored said:I suppose I stand corrected then since I had always thought the Holy Trinity was something different. So with that, how is the Quintrinity going to change that perspective. Does this mean the role of "DPS" is differen't? Does this mean that you will absolutely, no questions asked HAVE to have a DPS? It must have some meaning to call it something different.
From what I am understanding it will be Tank, Heal, CC then Utility (puller buffer debuffer etc)
Dps is once again what you use to fill in the group as they are usually the most played toons so easeier to get for groups
Hmm, interesting. It looks like that would mean you'd never several options for every role. Like at least 3 classes per role, idk? What would be considered a "support" role? I've always considered classes like Bard, enchanter, druid to be within that but 2 of those fill the CC role. Maybe more classes are going to have these abilities. hmm
Only time will tell I guess.
My idea of support / utility would be Bards (they can cc but not main job) Shammy (they can heal but not main job, they buff / debuff) Druids (they can heal but also good for ports buffs runspeed) monks for pulling...anything that is useful for the group but not the main job of anyone in the group.
Keep in mind that these are using EQ classes as the source...Im sure the set up will be different in PROTF (Like Shammys can heal as well as a cleric so they can be main healers)
From Wikipedia;
Even and odd sizes
As a group gets larger, adding another person has less effect on its characteristics. A consideration at least in smaller groups, though, is whether the number of members is even or odd. Doing things together is easy if all those involved agree on what to do, or if majority opinion is able to override objections without repelling the objectors. A group of six or eight members can split into two equal factions, so decision-making is not apt to be as easy as if the size were five, seven or nine. As groups get larger stalemates are less likely but still can be troublesome. If a group makes decisions by voting it can adopt a means of tie-breaking (requiring one vote more than 50% for a measure to be adopted, giving the presiding officer a tie-breaking vote, or deciding by coin toss).
Menon and Phillips (2011) found that even-sized small groups often experience lower cohesion than odd-sized small groups.
I think 7 would be a fair size.
1 x Tank
1 x Off-Tank / DPS
1 x Healer
1 x Off-Healer / Buffer / De-Buffer
2 x DPS
1 x CC
Sevens said:From what I am understanding it will be Tank, Heal, CC then Utility (puller buffer debuffer etc)
Dps is once again what you use to fill in the group as they are usually the most played toons so easeier to get for groups
This is pulled from the FAQ: although I disagree with the FAQ's point on the Holy Trinity and agree with what you said that the Holy Trinity is Tank/Heal/CC (which is how it was in EQ): But here's the FAQs mention of the quaternity system:
Pantheon does indeed use a class based system, and those classes do fulfill roles, especially in group and raid contexts. There will also be opportunities to focus each class on more specific and specialized roles, especially at higher levels. That said, because we feel it’s important that classes fulfill distinct roles, creating interdependence is vital to a fulfilling social and cooperative experience. If everyone is the same, this simply cannot be achieved. Likewise, if every class is absolutely unique, grouping can become overly complicated and, in some cases, certain classes could be less desirable to have in a group than others. To avoid this, Pantheon will use a ‘quaternity’ system consisting of tank, healer, DPS, and crowd-control.
@Celandor - You also make some good points on being able to add more to a group - especially given that there may be specializations, but, I've also been in many groups that didn't have enough people but that tried to get by on 3-4 members. That wouldn't be the case if group content was scaled for 8 members versus 6.
Raidan said:Sevens said:From what I am understanding it will be Tank, Heal, CC then Utility (puller buffer debuffer etc)
Dps is once again what you use to fill in the group as they are usually the most played toons so easeier to get for groups
This is pulled from the FAQ: although I disagree with the FAQ's point on the Holy Trinity and agree with what you said that the Holy Trinity is Tank/Heal/CC (which is how it was in EQ): But here's the FAQs mention of the quaternity system:
Will Pantheon's classes have clear-cut roles such as the holy trinity (tank, healer, dps) or will they be much more flexible/customizable?
Pantheon does indeed use a class based system, and those classes do fulfill roles, especially in group and raid contexts. There will also be opportunities to focus each class on more specific and specialized roles, especially at higher levels. That said, because we feel it’s important that classes fulfill distinct roles, creating interdependence is vital to a fulfilling social and cooperative experience. If everyone is the same, this simply cannot be achieved. Likewise, if every class is absolutely unique, grouping can become overly complicated and, in some cases, certain classes could be less desirable to have in a group than others. To avoid this, Pantheon will use a ‘quaternity’ system consisting of tank, healer, DPS, and crowd-control.
@Celandor - You also make some good points on being able to add more to a group - especially given that there may be specializations, but, I've also been in many groups that didn't have enough people but that tried to get by on 3-4 members. That wouldn't be the case if group content was scaled for 8 members versus 6.
Yep, youre right.
It will be DPS as part of the core and the utility will be spread amonst the other roles.
Probally should read the FAQ more often before talking :)
Raidan said:...snip...
I've also been in many groups that didn't have enough people but that tried to get by on 3-4 members. That wouldn't be the case if group content was scaled for 8 members versus 6.
That is a very good point about 8. It would stink hanging around with 2 or 3 others and not being able to accomplish much.
Raidan said:...snip...
I've also been in many groups that didn't have enough people but that tried to get by on 3-4 members. That wouldn't be the case if group content was scaled for 8 members versus 6.
That is a very good point about 8. It would stink hanging around with 2 or 3 others and not being able to accomplish much.
I think with larger group size, I'd also be more concerned with level differences between group members. Greater latitude between character levels would open up more possible group members. I'm guessing that the level difference might also be larger to make this accomodation? Just a guess.
6. If the dynamic of a group consists of a tank, healer, CC for adds, and then nothing else specifically required but filler.
5 seems to restrict group makeup too much, where you will not be able to consider odd or uncommon group makeups. Taking that pally for tanking the first time will commit your group to him and you can't later get a "real tank" (this is just an example, pally lovers don't hate) without truly crippling your groups dmg output (since the pally would then fall into that role). Same potentially goes for the shaman or druid main healer, but to a lesser detrimental effect since they had better alternatives than a tank when trying to fill a dmg slot.
5 is too small for creativity in the group makeup, 6 allows better players to carry the odd class easier if necessary, and for every player you add, that's one more person to find before starting a dungeon crawl. I think the majority are screaming for traveling to matter, the game world to kick our ass if not paying attention, so you are going to want that full group before moving out in most cases.
7.... maybe. For me it would come down to weighing is it truly worth it to carve out a specific role for a class(or ability in multiple classes), the "quaternity", and to maintain the extra 3 filler spots to allow for creative group makeups. I'm not sure if there is a real gain to be had there? Especially since you'd have to make content harder to justify the 7th person in groups.