Sevens said:Forelis said:I used to be relatively ambivalent towards boxing. However, when Daybeak Games opened up their new classicish progression servers, the servers were dominated by 6 boxers. Honestly, it was ruinous to the legitimacy of the game, and if the game doesn't feel legitimate, the enjoyment factor is lost. I was so disheartened by it that I must admit that I actually tried 6 boxing, which ultimately made the game feel even more worthless.
They need to make sure there is nothing like autofollow. If we see autofollow in Pantheon, it would be something I'd challenge.
I have been calling for the removal of /autofollow for years now...taking out 1 command could clear up alot (not all) of this mess
I regret that I never thought of this before. No autofollow would either discourage boxers, or lead to some form of automation.
I'd certainly give up that little convenience if it led to less boxers.
Dullahan said:Sevens said:I have been calling for the removal of /autofollow for years now...taking out 1 command could clear up alot (not all) of this mess
I regret that I never thought of this before. No autofollow would either discourage boxers, or lead to some form of automation.
I'd certainly give up that little convenience if it led to less boxers.
...
I too would give up the convenience of a "/follow" type of command if it could help reduce the number of (the wrong type of) boxers/botters. I think boxers should be allowed IF:
A) they were paying for however many accounts they had.
B) They were playing earch account, in real time, on multiple computers. (extreme multitasking!)
I would like to say I don't multibox. The closest to that I have ever been was I had 2 accounts in Star Wars Galaxies, one for my main combat class, one for my crafter/merchant. I would log in and out between them, my computer at the time could not play both at the same time :P
Rachael
Talvaris said:The only time two-boxing really hurt a group, IMO, was when a sneaky fella I knew began rolling on loot for each character he'd managed to finagle into a group. Basically, he was rolling with his Shaman and again on his Monk, making his odds 2/5 against the group. Two-boxers should disclose their status to the group so as to even the odds and communicate the potential vulnerabilities such a status brings about.
I can see both sides of the macro argument, I just personally think there are bigger fish to fry.
Talv.
I dislike boxing and sincerly hope this game won't be slow/simple enough to allow someone to box with a major disadvantage. That said, if someone is 2-boxing and filling 2/5 of the group, why shouldn't they get 2/5 rolls on the loot?
Multiboxing isnt a big deal for me in PvE. They pay extra subs, dont really disadvantage anyone else other than farmers I guess, its somewhat tougher than playing a single toon (at least the set up?) ... honestly, the only way this will affect me is the "immersion" of seeing 5 perfectly synced clones running in a perfect line.
PvP though, no. Specially not BG/Arena style PvP with a limited number of players per team.
Kayo said:Multiboxing isnt a big deal for me in PvE. They pay extra subs, dont really disadvantage anyone else other than farmers I guess, its somewhat tougher than playing a single toon (at least the set up?) ... honestly, the only way this will affect me is the "immersion" of seeing 5 perfectly synced clones running in a perfect line.
PvP though, no. Specially not BG/Arena style PvP with a limited number of players per team.
if you see 5 perfectly synced clones running in a perfect line thats probally a program running the toons and should be 100% bannable
Now if you have 1 person running 5 accounts but playing each independantly then I really have no problem with that. I do hope that they get rid of /follow and make the game engaging enough that running more than 1 toon is just to much hassle to be worth it
Sevens said:if you see 5 perfectly synced clones running in a perfect line thats probally a program running the toons and should be 100% bannable
Now if you have 1 person running 5 accounts but playing each independantly then I really have no problem with that. I do hope that they get rid of /follow and make the game engaging enough that running more than 1 toon is just to much hassle to be worth it
Well Ive never multiboxed before so im not sure what id see different but it was my understanding multiboxing was multiple characters being set up with macros and what not to follow and react to a lead toon (auto-follow, target of target, etc) ... maybe "perfectly synced" was wrong choice of words. Very thin line between multiboxing and botting AFAIK.
I've always had multiple accounts. 3 accounts in EQ1, 2 in EQ2, 4 in EVE, 2 in Rift. Rarely were the accounts used simultaneously like in the same group or raid. One might be back in town working on tradeskills or monitoring the Bazaar or trade hub area. In EVE, due to their skill training system if you want to be a PVPer and still do Industry or high-sec ganking or any number of other things you pretty much had to have multiple accounts. Being able to move your own capital ship (carrier, dreadnaught, jump freighter) across the galaxy by yourself using just your cyno alts is a huge benefit.
I'll definitely have multiple accounts in Pantheon. At least 2.
Kayo said:Sevens said:if you see 5 perfectly synced clones running in a perfect line thats probally a program running the toons and should be 100% bannable
Now if you have 1 person running 5 accounts but playing each independantly then I really have no problem with that. I do hope that they get rid of /follow and make the game engaging enough that running more than 1 toon is just to much hassle to be worth it
Well Ive never multiboxed before so im not sure what id see different but it was my understanding multiboxing was multiple characters being set up with macros and what not to follow and react to a lead toon (auto-follow, target of target, etc) ... maybe "perfectly synced" was wrong choice of words. Very thin line between multiboxing and botting AFAIK.
To me the difference is...if you have 5 accounts and you can play all 5 by YOURSELF...with no automation what so ever, cool. I know in EQ it wasnt that big of a deal to run that many. Now if you have 5 accounts and have 3rd party software help you with macros and or certain keystrokes working on multiple accounts, then no, that should be bannable.
The problem is already solved.
Clear EULA & trueboxing only. All other forms of boxing are bannable. (All enforceable with stronger EULA and client control.)
And with a possible One Character per account in Pantheon, means most people boxing are not doing it for grouping, but for crafting or trading, etc.
Hieromonk said:And with a possible One Character per account in Pantheon, means most people boxing are not doing it for grouping, but for crafting or trading, etc.
You keep repeating this and it's a completely baseless claim. The closest I've seen anyone from VRi coming to this is stating the possibility of a special rules set server where this could be true. In fact, one of the pledge rewards is an additional character slot.
geatz said: I cant believe so many people are okay with what is so obviously cheating. Not just cheating themselves, but cheating others out of the experience of playing an MMO. Kind of disheartening. I hope they put in place a login server that would only allow maybe one login per IP or something to make this even more difficult. I know people like to LAN and this would kill that but even if you could limit this to an RP sever I would just play on that and let the farmers and cheaters use the general servers.
Your leap in logic eludes me. How do you equate someone who is legitimately paying for multiple accounts to cheating? As if they are one and the same? My choice to run 2 characters (like I did in EQ1 with a Shaman and Beastlord) had zero impact on anybody else. Could I handle dungeon locations where otherwise full groups were adventuring? No. Where I could go were the fringes, those places that full groups ignored and soloers couldn't handle. I consumed content nobody else was using.
Vandraad said:geatz said: I cant believe so many people are okay with what is so obviously cheating. Not just cheating themselves, but cheating others out of the experience of playing an MMO. Kind of disheartening. I hope they put in place a login server that would only allow maybe one login per IP or something to make this even more difficult. I know people like to LAN and this would kill that but even if you could limit this to an RP sever I would just play on that and let the farmers and cheaters use the general servers.Your leap in logic eludes me. How do you equate someone who is legitimately paying for multiple accounts to cheating? As if they are one and the same? My choice to run 2 characters (like I did in EQ1 with a Shaman and Beastlord) had zero impact on anybody else. Could I handle dungeon locations where otherwise full groups were adventuring? No. Where I could go were the fringes, those places that full groups ignored and soloers couldn't handle. I consumed content nobody else was using.
Excuse me, I didnt try nor am I going to try and equate purchasing multiple accounts with cheating, I was and do equate boxing with cheating. I dont know if you are playing ignorant or you are ignorant, that you don't see the difference between purchasing multiple accounts and what we are referring to here as boxing.
So now let me clarify this a little, if its in the EULA, and specifically states or it can be interrepreted to state that boxing isn't allowed, then you're cheating, simple. If there is nothing in the EULA that would prohibit what we are referring to as boxing, then you are just a theif and that's why many of us on here want something in the EULA. And I don't think it's quite the leap you think, there are many others on here who share the same view. To be honest the fact that you said it had zero impact shows your ignorance. How many camps did you hold over legitimate groups or duo's, that came and walked away or never said anything. How many groups did you infiltrate and roll 2x on items. How many times would you have grouped instead of playing by yourself. How many people lost the opportunity to socialize with someone in a trio where 2 were you. Boxing robs the community, individually it doesnt make that big of a deal, but if everyone thought as you, well...I'll let your logic figure that out.
I have boxed for years so lets answer your questions.
How many camps did you hold over legitimate groups or duo's: Zero because I boxed for a specific reason. But what makes them legitimmate if we are both paying customers?
How many groups did you infiltrate and roll 2x on items. Zero because I could duo most content or just didnt care about the loot.
How many times would you have grouped instead of playing by yourself. Who says I have to group with anyone regardless of what im doing. Its my money I can play it how i find it fun.
How many people lost the opportunity to socialize with someone in a trio where 2 were you. Zero because even if I dual boxed I still talk with other people when they are in my group. In fact because I always rolled the Rare class that every wants but not many play My alt was able to form more groups and allow alot more groups to succeed.
In EQ2 I rolled a Dirge because your clan only had 1. Because I boxed that toon I could level him up at the same time and if the raid didnt need my paladin but needed another Dirge to succeed guess what my boxed account just gave 23 other people enjoyment and the ability to function as a group.. As my Dirge was fully raid geared and went on easily 500 raids by my math 500 raidsx23 other people on raids I made it more enjoyable 11,300 times for other players making it a better community
I will have 2, 3 accounts, box mine whenever I want, get the L / P to friends', box an entire group, and anyone who wants to cry about it I don't care what you think unless you're funding me or I'm bedding you.
But if someone isn't a blatant jerk and you want to join my group and show me such in a pleasant fashion, come on in. That's the way the great majority of boxers I know operate. We can and will drop our own characters, invite you, and keep our extra characters outside of group and contribute with them (re: outside of group!), not only for my benefit, but for you, too.
14 odd years of EQ or so -- never had a problem with someone boxing and nobody had an issue with me boxing, either, or they simply didn't tell me. I'll tell you what did happen, friends I was playing when they were sleeping I had to tell them they needed to log in and spend all the experience points (AA's) I got them because I capped them out all the time. Dastardly of me, I know. That is how I roll, evidently.
Vade said:I will have 2, 3 accounts, box mine whenever I want, get the L / P to friends', box an entire group, and anyone who wants to cry about it I don't care what you think unless you're funding me or I'm bedding you.
But if someone isn't a blatant jerk and you want to join my group and show me such in a pleasant fashion, come on in. That's the way the great majority of boxers I know operate. We can and will drop our own characters, invite you, and keep our extra characters outside of group and contribute with them (re: outside of group!), not only for my benefit, but for you, too.
14 odd years of EQ or so -- never had a problem with someone boxing and nobody had an issue with me boxing, either, or they simply didn't tell me. I'll tell you what did happen, friends I was playing when they were sleeping I had to tell them they needed to log in and spend all the experience points (AA's) I got them because I capped them out all the time. Dastardly of me, I know. That is how I roll, evidently.
Agree with this Statement 100 percent. No one every said me to my stealing from them nor did I ever hold a spot for my boxed toon over a live person.
Kalgore said:Agree with this Statement 100 percent. No one every said me to my stealing from them nor did I ever hold a spot for my boxed toon over a live person.
I don't even box often ... I don't even prefer to box. But if it's late at night, my friends aren't on, I do enjoy it sometimes. Or if it's in the middle of the day and I need to get up and do something on a moment's notice I don't want to be a jerk and bail on a group. It's very annoying when a core member of the group just up and bails and doesn't let you know you should be looking for a replacement. How's that for everyone, boxing to NOT be a jerk. lol ;-)
Kalgore said:I have boxed for years so lets answer your questions.
How many camps did you hold over legitimate groups or duo's: Zero because I boxed for a specific reason. But what makes them legitimmate if we are both paying customers?
How many groups did you infiltrate and roll 2x on items. Zero because I could duo most content or just didnt care about the loot.
How many times would you have grouped instead of playing by yourself. Who says I have to group with anyone regardless of what im doing. Its my money I can play it how i find it fun.
How many people lost the opportunity to socialize with someone in a trio where 2 were you. Zero because even if I dual boxed I still talk with other people when they are in my group. In fact because I always rolled the Rare class that every wants but not many play My alt was able to form more groups and allow alot more groups to succeed.
In EQ2 I rolled a Dirge because your clan only had 1. Because I boxed that toon I could level him up at the same time and if the raid didnt need my paladin but needed another Dirge to succeed guess what my boxed account just gave 23 other people enjoyment and the ability to function as a group.. As my Dirge was fully raid geared and went on easily 500 raids by my math 500 raidsx23 other people on raids I made it more enjoyable 11,300 times for other players making it a better community
Kalgore I'm not even going to argue your answers because I straight up dont believe you for a second. It's obvious that you are just completly blinded by the consequences of boxing by attempting to justify your own individual actions, instead of comming up with a solution that prevents the realities of allowing it. I mentioned my solution to the issue, but of course you ignore that and instead attempt to foolishly excuse and legitimize your behavior, even patting yourself on the back and giving yourself praise 11,300 times, like some sort of narcisicist. Well good luck trying to convince the community, cause I'm not drinking the koolaid.
geatz said:Kalgore said:I have boxed for years so lets answer your questions.
How many camps did you hold over legitimate groups or duo's: Zero because I boxed for a specific reason. But what makes them legitimmate if we are both paying customers?
How many groups did you infiltrate and roll 2x on items. Zero because I could duo most content or just didnt care about the loot.
How many times would you have grouped instead of playing by yourself. Who says I have to group with anyone regardless of what im doing. Its my money I can play it how i find it fun.
How many people lost the opportunity to socialize with someone in a trio where 2 were you. Zero because even if I dual boxed I still talk with other people when they are in my group. In fact because I always rolled the Rare class that every wants but not many play My alt was able to form more groups and allow alot more groups to succeed.
In EQ2 I rolled a Dirge because your clan only had 1. Because I boxed that toon I could level him up at the same time and if the raid didnt need my paladin but needed another Dirge to succeed guess what my boxed account just gave 23 other people enjoyment and the ability to function as a group.. As my Dirge was fully raid geared and went on easily 500 raids by my math 500 raidsx23 other people on raids I made it more enjoyable 11,300 times for other players making it a better community
Kalgore I'm not even going to argue your answers because I straight up dont believe you for a second. It's obvious that you are just completly blinded by the consequences of boxing by attempting to justify your own individual actions, instead of comming up with a solution that prevents the realities of allowing it. I mentioned my solution to the issue, but of course you ignore that and instead attempt to foolishly excuse and legitimize your behavior, even patting yourself on the back and giving yourself praise 11,300 times, like some sort of narcisicist. Well good luck trying to convince the community, cause I'm not drinking the koolaid.
As soon as you result in childish name calling and you invalidate your reasoning. You act like it hurts the community but look a tthe attuide you show on the forums. If someone doesnt agree with you then they are wrong and a lair or whatever else you wish to call them. How many groups did you ruin with that attitude??
Also you seem to think just because a boxer might have 2 account sin a group of 6 it takes away from the communtity but how does it do that. Plenty of people don;t say anything in an entire zone while in group. does that mean they shouldnt be allowed to group??
I honestly don't really care if you beleive me but most people roll second accounts for the exact same reason as me because the guild has a need and its easier then recruiting. I have been a member in some of the best raid guilds in EQ1 and EQ2 so obviously my boxing had didnt affect my community relationships in the slightest
geatz said:Kalgore said:I have boxed for years so lets answer your questions.
How many camps did you hold over legitimate groups or duo's: Zero because I boxed for a specific reason. But what makes them legitimmate if we are both paying customers?
How many groups did you infiltrate and roll 2x on items. Zero because I could duo most content or just didnt care about the loot.
How many times would you have grouped instead of playing by yourself. Who says I have to group with anyone regardless of what im doing. Its my money I can play it how i find it fun.
How many people lost the opportunity to socialize with someone in a trio where 2 were you. Zero because even if I dual boxed I still talk with other people when they are in my group. In fact because I always rolled the Rare class that every wants but not many play My alt was able to form more groups and allow alot more groups to succeed.
In EQ2 I rolled a Dirge because your clan only had 1. Because I boxed that toon I could level him up at the same time and if the raid didnt need my paladin but needed another Dirge to succeed guess what my boxed account just gave 23 other people enjoyment and the ability to function as a group.. As my Dirge was fully raid geared and went on easily 500 raids by my math 500 raidsx23 other people on raids I made it more enjoyable 11,300 times for other players making it a better community
Kalgore I'm not even going to argue your answers because I straight up dont believe you for a second. It's obvious that you are just completly blinded by the consequences of boxing by attempting to justify your own individual actions, instead of comming up with a solution that prevents the realities of allowing it. I mentioned my solution to the issue, but of course you ignore that and instead attempt to foolishly excuse and legitimize your behavior, even patting yourself on the back and giving yourself praise 11,300 times, like some sort of narcisicist. Well good luck trying to convince the community, cause I'm not drinking the koolaid.
You dislike doesn't invalidate his reasons for boxing, i used to 3 box in daoc (pve only - scroll farming in TOA) and 3/4 box in EQ. That never stopped me from grouping, i never joined a group and acted like i was two different people. I boxxed because i could do progression on my own schedule and could more easily farm items that needed a group when i couldn't get a group of guild mates. Not all boxers pull the shennanigans that happened on the TLP servers due to mage armies and krono sales.
I also encountered it in Vanguard, I had a short lived character on a pvp server and after a boxing troll gloated after killing me I left and started on a pve server, this was near the end of Vanguard but still. Vanguard no PvP was fine don't remember seeing it happen. After going through that on Vanguard I wouldnt even jump on a pvp server if they allowed boxing.