Here is a quick exert on how Caravans were to work in vanguard that I found on an old VG wiki.
Players can join a caravan and then log out within 10 Minutes and after 3 hours offline they will have the option of moving their character to the location of caravan leader or remain where they originally left their character.
So you have to be part of it for at least 10 minutes before logging and then you must be offline for at least 3 hours before joining the leader. It would make the aforementioned monk flopping past mobs and others rejoining after much more difficult.
Duffy said:I can't find it, but Kilsin said multiple times that also people with limited time (like two hours a day) can and will accomplish somehing in Pantheon. And I for one am glad for that, because I am married to a non gamer, and work 9 hours a day. Please don't shove people like me who can't play 8-12 hours a day off to another game which caters to "quick and sporadic" gameplay. We don't want "quick and sporadic gameplay", otherwise we would be in THAT games.
Extremes are always bad and pleading for something not extreme doesn't mean someone belongs to the "entitlement" crowd. I want Pantheon very very much to work, just like you! But please don't try to create a niche inside a niche game and presume that people who questions frequent one hour travels are some instant gratification plebs.
Sorry who said anything about shoving you off? :) - I only have 4-6 hours a night. Eh? Only if you demand gameplay changes for everything (and I do mean everything) to catered for your 1-3 hours of gameplay I think you're entitled... and you're not. I don't see the issue... no ones attacking. /soothe
"I paid $50 for this game. I want _everything_ (should be soloable) catered around me and myself soley! I have 1-2 hours game time. Why can't I have this?!" = entitled. With abit of luck Pantheon won't listen and make the game for us golden oldies (as in EQ/group based).
If you really are dedicated to the way this game is meant to be played, then you will enjoy spending one of those 1-2 hour sessions going where you need to go.
I never usually get more than 3 hours at a time, and I play on Project 1999 and also the LockJaw TLP eq live server.
During my lunch break whilst relaxing I run to where I will want to play that night :) Half the experience is the journey! I think if they can balance this a little and not make it tooooo bad then it should work out well, or if you do want fast travel, it should be reliant on a service someone else is giving you, that way the socialness is not lost :)
-My 2cp :)
Nimryl said:Sorry who said anything about shoving you off? :) - I only have 4-6 hours a night. Eh? Only if you demand gameplay changes for everything (and I do mean everything) to catered for your 1-3 hours of gameplay I think you're entitled... and you're not. I don't see the issue... no ones attacking. /soothe
"I paid $50 for this game. I want _everything_ (should be soloable) catered around me and myself soley! I have 1-2 hours game time. Why can't I have this?!" = entitled. With abit of luck Pantheon won't listen and make the game for us golden oldies (as in EQ/group based).
Ah I got it. My apologies for jumping to conclusions, I thought it was directed to the more measured approach regarding traveling. Of course nobody wants to see something you describes, me neither. I'd stay in EQ2 if I wanted to have that ;)
Deadlyfury said: During my lunch break whilst relaxing I run to where I will want to play that night :) Half the experience is the journey! I think if they can balance this a little and not make it tooooo bad then it should work out well, or if you do want fast travel, it should be reliant on a service someone else is giving you, that way the socialness is not lost :)
For me it isn't just about the balance of travel vs the time you have, but it's more about making travel more interesting so you don't say things like "and not make it tooo bad" etc. But I 100% agree if there's quick travel in game.. it should be a service/social thing, but that's up to Pantheon. :)
The only kind of "quick travel" I'm OK with would be things like certain classes being able to teleport, or other types of casters using magical means to transport themself. If pure melee classes are getting magical abilities to transport themself around I would be pretty disappointed. I wouldn't mind things like "Gate potions" but those are limited items you have to buy and you could spin it in a roleplaying sense.
Regarding boats -EQ did boats right becuase it made boat rides meaninful. Yes, you had a destination you were heading towards but they also had stops along the way that made it more interesting. In VG there were boats but it left the dock and went through a teleporter then arrived at the other dock. That's putting in a boat just to say you have a boat, not to have meaningful transportation. You might as well not even have boats if your just going to TP them.
Just my two cents, but EQ had fast travel from the very beginning. Everyone who played an EQ Wizard knows that. They had spells to teleport you all over the world. Any mage could bind and you could recall from anywhere to your bind point. That's fast travel.
I think the real question isn't whether fast travel exists, but what form it takes. It's not really a yes or no question, it's a question of balancing fast travel in a way that preserves some sense of the size of the world. IMHO class specific fast travel to a limited set of places that grows as you level is a good compromise.
My strong belief is that low levels should be tough and travel should be more difficult, so that one of the perks of higher levels is more convient travel.
I am also sympathetic to the idea of ways to assemble a group quickly. However, I'm a bit dubioud that it can be done in a way that can't be exploited to bypass limits of fast travel.
Heck, Shadows of Luclin changed the dynamic of travel in EQ before even Planes of Power arrived ... granted, I absolutely loved Planes of Power. Plane of Time is still one of my favorite zones.
But anyway, it definitely shrunk the epic size of EverQuest. It squished a beach ball into the size of a baseball, comparatively.
I'm on the fence about quick ports. Perhaps just to preserve the feel of the game you really should be restrained to manual travel and teleportation by Wizards, Druids, so on.
Vade said:Heck, Shadows of Luclin changed the dynamic of travel in EQ before even Planes of Power arrived ...
Definitely, but offering one portal to each continent (two to antonica) didn't really affect travel nearly to the point that putting a portal stone in almost every zone did.
One of my favorite WoW memories was making the trip to Scarlet Monastery as a human priest for the first time. My friends and I made the hour-long trip after swimming around cliffs, sneaking around the Undead starting area, and making our way into a zone where we could be PVP'd at any moment. It was a FREAKING BLAST. We spent 4 hours doing multiple runs in the dungeon on a drunken Saturday night. What I wouldn't do to play more vanilla WoW with old friends...
Now, this was in a game where fast travel abounded - griffons, boats, and hearthstones made travel pretty much a non-issue. That said, we made our own adventure. We decided to go somewhere we didn't belong and that risk/reward heightened our sense of gameplay and made the game that much more enjoyable.
At the end of the day, you should be able to play the game how you want depending on your personal schedule. Some pre-planning and strategizing should have you earning EXP and enjoying the game regardless of life's distractions. So, if you have extra time to kill on a weekend night, coordinate a crazy run into unknown territory and just go for it! Who cares if it takes a few hours to get there.
At the end of the day, you should be able to play the game how you want depending on your personal schedule.
I'm not at all sympathetic to the whole line of reasoning that you should be able to play the game the way you want. Honestly, and I'm not saying this to be critical, but I think it's nonsense because it negates the whole concept of games. What if I want a button to be level 50 instantly. Lots of people might lobby for it, and by that rational you they should have it so they can play the game the way they want, but it doesn't make a good game. The whole concept of games is to give you challenges and then put up barriers to accomplishing them. If you let everyone play the game the way they want then the evolution is toward games that are no longer games, just a pile of eye candy. Where all barriers vanish, and you have no game in your game. Then the vocal few who find almost anything that stands in their way an annoyance turn the entire industry away from what it was all about to begin with.
It is up to designers to balance things so that the challenges are fun and not overly frustrating, then everyone should have to play that game the way it was intended so that the game means the same thing and gives the same playing experience to everyone.
First, I believe it is paramount that the game be developed in a manner that needing to travel from one location far from another or from one edge of the world to the other not be needed until possibly end game. Players who are just starting should be able to adventure without having to spend many hours traveling. You can explore and see new sights without having to travel 2 hours. But that requires smart development. I like the principle of early levels requiring little to no travel. Then the intermediate levels would start to stretch the world out and require players to travel farther distances. If the game was developed in such a manner then fast travel would not be needed until later in the game's life when players are high level and are in need of traveling to far places.
I still love the idea of CRAFTERS crafting a travel system where the crafters create an entire grid for transportation. They would start in each city, or maybe each big city, and create the hub where the transport would dock at, load and unload travelers, and prepare to move on to the next locale. Then they would craft outwards to connect each city and create a grid where the transportation could travel. This would create a system where you couldn't just quickly transport from one edge of the world to another, you'd have to go from city to city. This would create a system that was quicker than just simply walking or riding by mount but would still have its limits. The transportation possibly could only travel in one direction or maybe it could travel in both.
But the beauty of it would be that there wouldn't be this faster means of travel right from launch. Over time crafters would create this system and players could witness it grow. And if handled properly crafters could have this transportation system crafted in time for when players hit that area of levels where they require longer periods of travel. It's a great alternative for instant travel and it gives meaning to the game's fast travel.
Kayd said:At the end of the day, you should be able to play the game how you want depending on your personal schedule.
I'm not at all sympathetic to the whole line of reasoning that you should be able to play the game the way you want. Honestly, and I'm not saying this to be critical, but I think it's nonsense because it negates the whole concept of games. What if I want a button to be level 50 instantly. Lots of people might lobby for it, and by that rational you they should have it so they can play the game the way they want, but it doesn't make a good game. The whole concept of games is to give you challenges and then put up barriers to accomplishing them. If you let everyone play the game the way they want then the evolution is toward games that are no longer games, just a pile of eye candy. Where all barriers vanish, and you have no game in your game. Then the vocal few who find almost anything that stands in their way an annoyance turn the entire industry away from what it was all about to begin with.
It is up to designers to balance things so that the challenges are fun and not overly frustrating, then everyone should have to play that game the way it was intended so that the game means the same thing and gives the same playing experience to everyone.
Completely agree. These games that cater to quick travel/personal schedules etc feel hallow and just become a boring numbers/stats game. If you've been to the top and the bottom of most mmos you'd realise what really matters is adventure.. Epeen/gear means nothing to me.. sure it's kinda fun getting a rare uber item. But if someone said to me "Hey wanna go do 'this raid' again for the 100th time?" vs "Hey wanna go travel and explore this unexplored area/dungeon; see what we can find/get?". I know which I'd pick.
There are sooooo many ways to handle quick travel. Most of the problems & issues that many have with Fast Travel is how trivial it eventually gets. Such as in EQ.
But, if you already know this and have played a cornucopia of MMORPG over the last 15 years, you tend to ferret out those ideas that do & don't work. So to solve someone's (perceived) problem, you have to get to the core of why it is a problem. (As most don't really know the actual mechanic, that is causing their angst).
Once you know the root cause, you can then begin to ponder and work with solutions and play them out in your head. It just takes a premis... and some meditation and inner-vetting of undless one-off ideas to find one mechanic that does what everyone wants, and solve many problms with one idea.
No need to back yammer. Take your ideas and bounce them around more. Bring those to the table. Obvious ideas aside, dig. Don't suggest stuff, that any AD&D dude knows... don't waste our time with your lack of...
Agree on this:
-Fast travel must always have a cost.
-Fast travel must always have a price.
-Fast travel must have risk & even failure. (always be a roll of the dice and not certain)
Solution:
Is to agree on what costs, whats price and what risks Fast Travel takes.
I will offer up my ideas once the new forums take hold. But understandably, there are many forms of Fast Travel.. and the key is to understanding & defining their mechanics. Try to expand the mind and delve into the game mechanics.
A Gate is technically different than a Portal. In todays game, each type can be it's own mechanic, with it own requirments, etc. Portal open up and anyone around can jump through.. gate is personal, or communal, & instant...
Also, certain form of Fast Travel can have different Costs, Prices & Failures associated with them. (Important)
As an example of extremes:
-a personal gate back to bind, might require a simple reagent, almost found anywhere... but a 5% change to appear someplace you recently been.
-a communal gate of friends all to you, threw the ether to a known destination, might require a substantial amount of the Character's mana, & use a semi-rare reagent because it spoils over 30 days.
-a portal opening with no assurances of how long it will last, might take a rare stone and random sap of mana.
-a portal opening away from the city and metal, might take a different reagent and use less mana and has higher chance of success, etc.
-a portal stone that activates by touch, might not cost anything, but once on the other side you suffer from death sickness..? Or, a special crystal coin must be purchased from some Faction lord, before portal stone works.
-a portal opening in your guild hall, to a some far off place that your guild is raiding & that You (personally) previously went there. And with some rare inks, scribed a portal stone on that exact location. So that later, it can be used for when your guild is assembled and ready to raid.. With all those measures, you can then open that portal, knowing it will stay in place for 30m. The portal itself was essentially a guild effort in costs and material for the inks, stones, reagents, etc..
-a portal scroll that was found in a chest. Unknwn where is open a portal to, or even how many times the scroll can be used.. or what reagents it might use.
All simple mechanics, that constantly bring crafter and adventurers and people together. Again, you have to look forward, because past games don't have it right.
@Hieromonk
I don't know if that's directed at my post or in general.. But that's not for us to decide (mechanics). It's up to the designer and VR.
I guess we can discuss it for fun, but there isn't much point.
IMO Fast travel should only be provided by the classes that will be designed to offer it (Druid, Wizard, Summoner (CoH when they get it)?). All these different explanations and ideas to fit it into where anyone can use it at anytime/set areas (reminds me of pok), or etc need to go away. We need the social interaction, class interdependence, and a world that "feels large and real." All these discussions concerning this, res'ing, scrolls, and others to me seem to be people wanting to dilute the game to make it easier on themselves no matter what limits you want to put on it. One thing many people did not care for in EQ was when PoK came out and largely trivialized wizard and druid portals. The world was no longer large. It was just a flew clicks away.
Really wish those people played back in the late 90's EQ. People were SOCIAL back then and didn't demand instant gratification and the need to be able to do everything on their own.
-- Note: a Gate/Bind (with the usual limitations) for caster classes is fine. We had it in the original EQ.
Kayd said:At the end of the day, you should be able to play the game how you want depending on your personal schedule.
I'm not at all sympathetic to the whole line of reasoning that you should be able to play the game the way you want. Honestly, and I'm not saying this to be critical, but I think it's nonsense because it negates the whole concept of games. What if I want a button to be level 50 instantly. Lots of people might lobby for it, and by that rational you they should have it so they can play the game the way they want, but it doesn't make a good game. The whole concept of games is to give you challenges and then put up barriers to accomplishing them. If you let everyone play the game the way they want then the evolution is toward games that are no longer games, just a pile of eye candy. Where all barriers vanish, and you have no game in your game. Then the vocal few who find almost anything that stands in their way an annoyance turn the entire industry away from what it was all about to begin with.
It is up to designers to balance things so that the challenges are fun and not overly frustrating, then everyone should have to play that game the way it was intended so that the game means the same thing and gives the same playing experience to everyone.
I agree also.
Nimryl said:@Hieromonk
I don't know if that's directed at my post or in general.. But that's not for us to decide (mechanics). It's up to the designer and VR.
I guess we can discuss it for fun, but there isn't much point.
You are incorrect. This community has a massive effect and influence on the final game mechanics. Once I start alpha testing, I will know more of what is missing, or needs help, etc. Obviously certain base-line mechanics are in stone. Things such as Fast Travel are not yet definable, because Visionary Realms doesn't know how they are going to puzzle the mechanics.. this way, or that.
Alpha comes before beta.
Hieromonk said:Nimryl said:@Hieromonk
I don't know if that's directed at my post or in general.. But that's not for us to decide (mechanics). It's up to the designer and VR.
I guess we can discuss it for fun, but there isn't much point.
You are incorrect. This community has a massive effect and influence on the final game mechanics. Once I start alpha testing, I will know more of what is missing, or needs help, etc. Obviously certain base-line mechanics are in stone. Things such as Fast Travel are not yet definable, because Visionary Realms doesn't know how they are going to puzzle the mechanics.. this way, or that.
Alpha comes before beta.
Nimryl said:Hieromonk said:Nimryl said:@Hieromonk
I don't know if that's directed at my post or in general.. But that's not for us to decide (mechanics). It's up to the designer and VR.
I guess we can discuss it for fun, but there isn't much point.
You are incorrect. This community has a massive effect and influence on the final game mechanics. Once I start alpha testing, I will know more of what is missing, or needs help, etc. Obviously certain base-line mechanics are in stone. Things such as Fast Travel are not yet definable, because Visionary Realms doesn't know how they are going to puzzle the mechanics.. this way, or that.
Alpha comes before beta.
Sure it's fun to openly discuss and speculate.. as long as it is just that. But until a developer directly says otherwise.. personally am not gunna tread on someone elses toes. Not my place.
That is a smart stance to take Nimryl.
Just because we haven't released information on something or openly spoken about it, doesn't mean that we don't already have it implemented or are actively working on it, unless it comes from a VR staff member, it is a guess or an assumption at best. ;)
Kilsin said:Nimryl said:Hieromonk said:Nimryl said:@Hieromonk
I don't know if that's directed at my post or in general.. But that's not for us to decide (mechanics). It's up to the designer and VR.
I guess we can discuss it for fun, but there isn't much point.
You are incorrect. This community has a massive effect and influence on the final game mechanics. Once I start alpha testing, I will know more of what is missing, or needs help, etc. Obviously certain base-line mechanics are in stone. Things such as Fast Travel are not yet definable, because Visionary Realms doesn't know how they are going to puzzle the mechanics.. this way, or that.
Alpha comes before beta.
Sure it's fun to openly discuss and speculate.. as long as it is just that. But until a developer directly says otherwise.. personally am not gunna tread on someone elses toes. Not my place.That is a smart stance to take Nimryl.
Just because we haven't released information on something or openly spoken about it, doesn't mean that we don't already have it implemented or are actively working on it, unless it comes from a VR staff member, it is a guess or an assumption at best. ;)
Great, so you both agree the community plays a role in how the game's mechanics advance. I've been around in the early stages of two of Brad's other projects. Milestones/tenets aside.. what "Fast Travel" is/becomes may change several times over the next year. Combat, spell, crafting... all will have player input. Nothing is set in stone, and/or may change.
You don't have to take a stance, or a wait & see approach.
alpha ~ beta is a process that involves the core community.
Hieromonk said:Kilsin said:Nimryl said:Hieromonk said:Nimryl said:@Hieromonk
I don't know if that's directed at my post or in general.. But that's not for us to decide (mechanics). It's up to the designer and VR.
I guess we can discuss it for fun, but there isn't much point.
You are incorrect. This community has a massive effect and influence on the final game mechanics. Once I start alpha testing, I will know more of what is missing, or needs help, etc. Obviously certain base-line mechanics are in stone. Things such as Fast Travel are not yet definable, because Visionary Realms doesn't know how they are going to puzzle the mechanics.. this way, or that.
Alpha comes before beta.
Sure it's fun to openly discuss and speculate.. as long as it is just that. But until a developer directly says otherwise.. personally am not gunna tread on someone elses toes. Not my place.That is a smart stance to take Nimryl.
Just because we haven't released information on something or openly spoken about it, doesn't mean that we don't already have it implemented or are actively working on it, unless it comes from a VR staff member, it is a guess or an assumption at best. ;)
Great, so you both agree the community plays a role in how the game's mechanics advance. I've been around in the early stages of two of Brad's other projects. Milestones/tenets aside.. what "Fast Travel" is/becomes may change several times over the next year. Combat, spell, crafting... all will have player input. Nothing is set in stone, and/or may change.
You don't have to take a stance, or a wait & see approach.
alpha ~ beta is a process that involves the core community.
Absolutely, the community plays a part and will continue to do so in the testing phases, my post was a friendly general reminder to everyone to post personal opinions/suggestions/ideas and not state it as official fact, as anything stated as official fact will be dismissed or moderated by the team.
If we haven't released an official word on a mechanic or feature etc. then only opinions, suggestions and ideas can be discussed.