DarknessAngel said:Its easy enough for them to implement systems like this, that are similar, yet different without being sued. I think we all would love to see something like the diplo system implemented. Something new thats meaningful would be awesome along the same lines, or at least a mechanic, other than crafting/fighting that you can level, and that is important to the game world in one fashion or another.
I know i've asked this question on facebook before, and it seems lots of people are onboard with this. The biggest thing, is we got to remember, these things take time to develope ideas, concepts, mechanics, develope them, and implment them.
I personally would like to see them, but i would not like to see them delay the games release. I would rather see it being worked on after release if its not something already in the development plan.
Well said :)
Aradune said:ps. as for the hype train, I *do* need to be careful here... I've been talking about where we want to take Pantheon post-launch, and while I don't mind talking about it, I do want the focus to be on what we're launching with.... talking about the Grand Vision (which is the term I'm trying to use when I'm talking about the Vision(TM) for post-launch) is fine to a degree I suppose, as long as the focus stays on what Pantheon will be at launch... I don't want people so excited about and thinking about what Pantheon will become months or years after it launches that they lose focus on how great it will be *at* launch....
Ah well Aradune, too late. I've been so excited since I found the kickstarter a couple of years ago, that I can hardly stand it :).
In all seriousness, I understand what you're saying. I have been focusing on the launch and the content as it is discussed. But, I just cant help but be very happy about the long term content, your description of what you want to see in the game world eventually.
I really like the paths described: that there just may be ways that allow growing my character thru, not just adventuring, but dipolmacy, maybe crafting - if you want to go into a specialty perhaps.
I like the ideas of building in non-instanced zones and building ships ala VG (but with wide enough rivers to really sail them on :) ).
I'm all for pvp servers.
I'd love to see skills practiced similar to the way EQ did it: Bards learning to 'twist their songs', and Terminus's Gates "raining Monks".
Mainly, I like having so much to look forward to.
Edit: quotes
Very good discussion and some very good ideas. This is why I am excited about being "in on the ground level", so to speak. Getting to discuss things with the devs and talk about a game that is not even out yet with so much positive energy that I can see it flickering across my monitor. Yeah...good times!
December 20, 2015 8:59 PM EST
Aradune said:Our plan is to launch a solid game, a PvE focused, cooperative, community based MMO. That will be our focus, although we will also have a crafting system and some other cool systems (see the 'Pantheon Difference'). Create a foundation that works, and build upon it some new ideas and some new approaches to some old ideas that haven't been taken where they could have or should have gone in past efforts.
One of the great things about MMOs, assuming you design them to last months and years, is that you can always build upon the game, adding new systems, classes, mechanics, etc.
The most important thing is to make sure you have a solid and fun PvE foundation. We also have said we don't want to just create a modern emulator of an old school MMO. If you look at the FAQ and the 'Pantheon Difference' you'll see the newer and more advanced systems and ideas we want to build upon this solid foundation by launch.
The current plan is to deliver on what has been described on the web page by launch. We also are planning and designing around systems and content that will last. We plan on sticking with Pantheon for a very long time. We're definitely in this for the long haul -- launch will provide a fantastic and compelling game, but it's also a starting point in one sense. That starting point, like I've said, is a solid foundation build around PvE, traditional cooperative and social systems, and then the newer and more advanced systems described in 'The Pantheon Difference'.
We're confident that we can launch this game as described and that it will be a compelling and rewarding experience. But with launch being also just a starting point, we're designing systems that are meant to be expanded. The typical 'expansion' is more areas to explore, an increased level cap, and new and exciting (and often more powerful) items and abilities.
But we want to do more than that post-launch. We also want to add some uniquely playing classes like the Bard. We want to have alternate ruleset servers, like PvP and RP servers. Then we want to take the game even further, some of which we've hinted at on the web page and in interviews and such. Something like Diplomacy, while I am *not* announcing or promising such a system this early on, would be another way to advance your character and contend with the environment that we could add post-launch, building upon our solid foundation. Building houses in a non-instanced environment is another. More complex means of travel, like owning your own persistent ship might be another. Evolving vehicles (horses, ships, etc.) beyond transportation and allowing them to engage in combat would be another. Harnessing user-generated content yet another.
So I guess what I'm trying to say is that while Pantheon will be fantastic and fun at launch, to us it's just the first phase of development in a sense. It's a solid foundation plus the newer ideas we want to be in place. But what really gets me excited, and one of the reasons why I am committed to making MMOs until my last dying breath, is the potential they have to keep expanding both vertically *and* horizontally. I wasn't able to fully realize this long term potential of MMOs with EQ and Vanguard, but with Pantheon I definitely intend to. We want to keep the company small and focused, perhaps explore the idea of another game, but NOT to create another SoE where we have lots of different games in development. We'd rather have fewer games, a smaller more focused company, not sell out the company and stick by our games for many years. There are so many ideas we have for MMOs, but you just can't get all of those ideas into an MMO by launch. It's a process that should take years, keeping us busy and happy, and hopefully keeping all of the players excited as well -- create more than a game but an actual home -- having a blast with the game at launch, but also looking forward to what Pantheon could become months, years, and even a decade down the road. I look at EQ and how long it's been online and am very proud and encouraged. But with EQ, it didn't really expand that much horizontally -- the focus was on new zones, new mobs, higher level caps, new AAs, etc. Very vertical. So while I'm proud that EQ has lasted so long, I won't be satisfied again with an MMO that just expands vertically.
People often talk about Sandbox vs. Themepark. The way I look at the grand vision behind Pantheon is that it's a Sandbox that starts with some Themeparks within that Sandbox. But instead of just adding to the themeparks, I'd like to see the game evolve where there are more and more Themeparks within this ever expanding Sandbox. That's what I mean when I talk about horizontal expansion, where an MMO offers more and more things for its players to do, perhaps some very different advancement paths that all co-exist within the greater Sandbox.
I also don't think sequels make much sense in terms of where I'd like to see MMOs go. Content must be preserved -- developers cannot just start over every so many years, re-creating an MMO from scratch, building the foundation again, the core gameplay and mechanics, and all of the content (mobs, quests, lore, regions, etc.) again. Instead I think at some point you 'fork' the game, leaving behind, say, Pantheon 1.0 for people who are happy with the game just growing vertically. And then instead of a sequel, the game forks into Pantheon 2.0, retains and preserves the content and mechanics from before, but then pushes out horizontally, adding new ways to advance and grow your character, providing new experiences, new challenges, etc. They key is you don't start over -- you preserve the past and then keep building and adding.
One of the challenges, of course, is that technology continues to advance, and a game designed to last the long haul will have to get some makeovers and facelifts along the way. New technology, say graphics, has to be integrated into the game periodically lest it start looking dated or limited. So integrating newer technology while preserving content would be the goal, essentially continuing to evolve a game for years, and perhaps even decades. Easier said than done, of course, and there will certainly be hurdles to jump over and challenges to overcome. But it can be done, and it needs to be done.
In summary, while it's too early to commit to the specifics of our post-launch plans, the answer to the OPs question is a general yes -- adding new classes that work very differently than previous classes (like a Bard) is indeed part of the Grand Vision. Adding new advancement paths (perhaps something like Diplomacy) is also part of the Grand Vision. Taking both PvE and PvP a lot farther than most games have is as well. Housing, ships, user generated content, controlling regions (conquest, etc.), integrating some RTS elements into MMOs... I could go on and on... and I've gone on enough for this post, but you can be assured our plans are very long term and where we want to take Pantheon over the years is by no means limited to simply adding more vertical content (more levels, more mobs, more zones, more of the same). It's much, much more than that :)
"So I guess what I'm trying to say is that while Pantheon will be fantastic and fun at launch, to us it's just the first phase of development in a sense. It's a solid foundation plus the newer ideas we want to be in place. But what really gets me excited, and one of the reasons why I am committed to making MMOs until my last dying breath, is the potential they have to keep expanding both vertically *and* horizontally."
Can we get maybe some more tidbits on Horizontally expanding ideas... Is Diplomacy still scheduled for an expansion or will it make launch? What other spheres will our character to be able to grow with? Hunting, Farming, Scholar, Order etc.? Will these Horizontals only benefit individuals or perhaps regionally areas, like diplomacy did in Vanguard, or Guildwide or Global?
Aradune said:Our plan is to launch a solid game, a PvE focused, cooperative, community based MMO. That will be our focus, although we will also have a crafting system and some other cool systems (see the 'Pantheon Difference'). Create a foundation that works, and build upon it some new ideas and some new approaches to some old ideas that haven't been taken where they could have or should have gone in past efforts.
One of the great things about MMOs, assuming you design them to last months and years, is that you can always build upon the game, adding new systems, classes, mechanics, etc.
The most important thing is to make sure you have a solid and fun PvE foundation. We also have said we don't want to just create a modern emulator of an old school MMO. If you look at the FAQ and the 'Pantheon Difference' you'll see the newer and more advanced systems and ideas we want to build upon this solid foundation by launch.
The current plan is to deliver on what has been described on the web page by launch. We also are planning and designing around systems and content that will last. We plan on sticking with Pantheon for a very long time. We're definitely in this for the long haul -- launch will provide a fantastic and compelling game, but it's also a starting point in one sense. That starting point, like I've said, is a solid foundation build around PvE, traditional cooperative and social systems, and then the newer and more advanced systems described in 'The Pantheon Difference'.
We're confident that we can launch this game as described and that it will be a compelling and rewarding experience. But with launch being also just a starting point, we're designing systems that are meant to be expanded. The typical 'expansion' is more areas to explore, an increased level cap, and new and exciting (and often more powerful) items and abilities.
But we want to do more than that post-launch. We also want to add some uniquely playing classes like the Bard. We want to have alternate ruleset servers, like PvP and RP servers. Then we want to take the game even further, some of which we've hinted at on the web page and in interviews and such. Something like Diplomacy, while I am *not* announcing or promising such a system this early on, would be another way to advance your character and contend with the environment that we could add post-launch, building upon our solid foundation. Building houses in a non-instanced environment is another. More complex means of travel, like owning your own persistent ship might be another. Evolving vehicles (horses, ships, etc.) beyond transportation and allowing them to engage in combat would be another. Harnessing user-generated content yet another.
So I guess what I'm trying to say is that while Pantheon will be fantastic and fun at launch, to us it's just the first phase of development in a sense. It's a solid foundation plus the newer ideas we want to be in place. But what really gets me excited, and one of the reasons why I am committed to making MMOs until my last dying breath, is the potential they have to keep expanding both vertically *and* horizontally. I wasn't able to fully realize this long term potential of MMOs with EQ and Vanguard, but with Pantheon I definitely intend to. We want to keep the company small and focused, perhaps explore the idea of another game, but NOT to create another SoE where we have lots of different games in development. We'd rather have fewer games, a smaller more focused company, not sell out the company and stick by our games for many years. There are so many ideas we have for MMOs, but you just can't get all of those ideas into an MMO by launch. It's a process that should take years, keeping us busy and happy, and hopefully keeping all of the players excited as well -- create more than a game but an actual home -- having a blast with the game at launch, but also looking forward to what Pantheon could become months, years, and even a decade down the road. I look at EQ and how long it's been online and am very proud and encouraged. But with EQ, it didn't really expand that much horizontally -- the focus was on new zones, new mobs, higher level caps, new AAs, etc. Very vertical. So while I'm proud that EQ has lasted so long, I won't be satisfied again with an MMO that just expands vertically.
People often talk about Sandbox vs. Themepark. The way I look at the grand vision behind Pantheon is that it's a Sandbox that starts with some Themeparks within that Sandbox. But instead of just adding to the themeparks, I'd like to see the game evolve where there are more and more Themeparks within this ever expanding Sandbox. That's what I mean when I talk about horizontal expansion, where an MMO offers more and more things for its players to do, perhaps some very different advancement paths that all co-exist within the greater Sandbox.
I also don't think sequels make much sense in terms of where I'd like to see MMOs go. Content must be preserved -- developers cannot just start over every so many years, re-creating an MMO from scratch, building the foundation again, the core gameplay and mechanics, and all of the content (mobs, quests, lore, regions, etc.) again. Instead I think at some point you 'fork' the game, leaving behind, say, Pantheon 1.0 for people who are happy with the game just growing vertically. And then instead of a sequel, the game forks into Pantheon 2.0, retains and preserves the content and mechanics from before, but then pushes out horizontally, adding new ways to advance and grow your character, providing new experiences, new challenges, etc. They key is you don't start over -- you preserve the past and then keep building and adding.
One of the challenges, of course, is that technology continues to advance, and a game designed to last the long haul will have to get some makeovers and facelifts along the way. New technology, say graphics, has to be integrated into the game periodically lest it start looking dated or limited. So integrating newer technology while preserving content would be the goal, essentially continuing to evolve a game for years, and perhaps even decades. Easier said than done, of course, and there will certainly be hurdles to jump over and challenges to overcome. But it can be done, and it needs to be done.
In summary, while it's too early to commit to the specifics of our post-launch plans, the answer to the OPs question is a general yes -- adding new classes that work very differently than previous classes (like a Bard) is indeed part of the Grand Vision. Adding new advancement paths (perhaps something like Diplomacy) is also part of the Grand Vision. Taking both PvE and PvP a lot farther than most games have is as well. Housing, ships, user generated content, controlling regions (conquest, etc.), integrating some RTS elements into MMOs... I could go on and on... and I've gone on enough for this post, but you can be assured our plans are very long term and where we want to take Pantheon over the years is by no means limited to simply adding more vertical content (more levels, more mobs, more zones, more of the same). It's much, much more than that :)
Well said. I'm glad you're staying true to your vision and not falling for mission creep. That is, adding more and more features, which delay the game and in the end your game is nothing like your original vision. Make the game. Make it awesome. And then after it's out and you have a million + subs, work on adding good quality features
Personally, I'd like to see diplomacy be more of an end-game feature that impacts the world, even if just in small ways. When you think about it, it really makes sense. Great adventurer reaches max level (or close), maybe has an offspring to continue the adventure (progeny), uses accumulated knowledge and relationships built over the last 45-50 levels to advance {insert cause here}. Maybe it's a 'sensible' dark myr diplomat who's friendly with the elves and has convinced them that there are others who are sympathetic to their causes. The elves agree to put a trading caravan at the edge of their territory so the dark myr can bring trophies from their adventures or things they've crafted and exchange them for better standing with the elves. Maybe it takes a diplomat to convince another race (even npc) to access or share certain areas or lore. Maybe diplomacy can be used to sway your own leadership in some way. Maybe you can help broker alliances between factions against common enemies. Maybe you can get in good with the humans to help the Black Rose take them down, or vice versa (which might be an interesting way of getting rid of an underplayed faction). Whatever the goal, leaving it til end game would be an interesting alternative to raiding, harvesting, crafting, etc. night after night.
Aradune said:[Lots of interesting stuff]
It's so, so great to hear from Aradune (and all the team). They always make me feel that they have an excellent attitude and I feel ever more confident that they will not only deliver a fantastic game, but will make the industry see that the direction modern MMORPGs (and other genres) have gone is not the best way.
Enough smoke blowing hehe, but thanks Aradune, so much for your comments. Inspirational and exciting!
As for Diplomacy: I barely got a chance to play Vanguard, but it sounds excellent and I'd love to see something similar to Diplomacy in Pantheon.
One thing it makes me think, though: I would like Diplomacy, and any horizontal progress/content, to not feel too 'stand alone'. I would like to see it well 'integrated' so it doesn't feel like a different game tacked on.
To illustrate my point, perhaps Diplomacy is integrated with Faction, eg. you can gain faction with The Dragons by killing 10,000 Dwarves, but also by progressing Diplomatic avenues with the Dragons.
And perhaps Diplomacy is integrated with Crafting, eg. you can learn how to make Skar racial armor by killing 1000 Skar warriors and disassembling any looted armor, but also by making Diplomatic progress with the Skar.
Perhaps if you are a Diplomat of a certain reputation you get discounts with some vendors?
Could Diplomacy even effect some of the more mental/social adventuring skills? Would a Diplomat enchanter be better at mezmerising foes? Would a Diplomat Warrior be better at taunting foes and inspiring friends? Would a Diplomat cleric be better at resisting compulsions?
That makes me wonder about other horizontal progression possibilities that might integrate well, like Athelitcs? (Obvious physical fighting effects, but also climbing, movement speed, environmental resistences)
Or Woodcraft? (Some fighting effects maybe, but also foraging, backpack management, environmental resistences)
It would be great to see more than just adventuring, crafting and trading and it would be great for them to be nice and tightly integrated with the game as a whole.