If this is possible, I too would be worried about wether people could behave the old school fashion. If they do than I will follow suit to the community edicate as I all ways have in games I play. At the same time I thought this game was about open world contested content. It seems weird to discourage what seems like the purpose of this type of content.
A mechanic I was used to was if you were clearing to a mini-boss, momentum and timing were key to being successfull. You could only med for so long, you were never at full mana, and if you cleared as you went, you created a small cleared area around you that moved with you. Farther you got in, the monsters behind would then respawn- let alone the random roamers- that could also aggro the back spawns if you were not quick enough to dispatch it.
A mini-crawl I suppose. If a higher level guild came in, they would be clearing the re-spawns behind you and normaly you would hear them and they would run into you. Customarily this is where objectives were discussed, buffs shared, items traded- time permitting occured. If you were heading to the same target the uberguild were heading to, normally they would give you right of way- I guess is the best to explain it. Occasionally you would head to the area that another group was already set up in- this created the cry "Camp check!" upon entry (and replies:"disco"..."foreman"... "bugs"..."golems")
However the issue being raised as I understand it is about kill-stealing, and I think to truehearts (sry going form memory on name) point, if it were outside: Player attacks a bear, bear wins, player dies. Player begins corpse run back to corpse two zones away. Bear at half health, then meanders away on its roaming path. Another player comes from the other end passing through sees the bear half health, sees no one around, kills the bear, loots high quality hide and then goes on. First player is still en route, that would not be considered Kill-stealing.
So if a group attempts and fails and monster is at 2pts health, and another player happens to show up and kill the monster- even seeing all the bodies. it is this kind of scenario that determines much of the rules and discussions over contested content in an old MMO model. It begets discussion on things like rotations, and first to engage.
I don't know how it can be prevented in an old MMO model, outside of crucial reputational rumors/observations/criticisms/opinions. I have had players claimed I trained them, when I just zoned into the zone, how do you dispute that?
Like in VG you die/wipe and mob resets automatically. While you will have players who are friendly and helpful they may let you take another shot at the mob. But at the end of the day who takes ownership of the mob gets the loot.... So if you had ownership guild Z kills it you still get loot, give them a peace sign and move on. Every mob is contested...
Tuhart said:Well if everyone comes from the EQ old school there will be no problem what so ever.
If however VR are hoping to have a new wave of people, like end game progression guilds coming across on block from WoW, for World firsts etc I can see there being a problem.(these guilds tend to stick to themselves and to not co-operate with others outside the guild, indeed they have no need too)
This is pretty much correct, and why I believe it is rather naive of people to think that it's going to be anything like the good ol' days. That's not to say the Pantheon community won't consist mostly of honest, decent people, but it only takes one or two organized guilds to lock everyone else out. And there isn't much you can really do about that; it's simply a sign of the times.
But we should really reserve judgement until we know more, at least until the alpha is out there.
itvar said:Tuhart said:Well if everyone comes from the EQ old school there will be no problem what so ever.
If however VR are hoping to have a new wave of people, like end game progression guilds coming across on block from WoW, for World firsts etc I can see there being a problem.(these guilds tend to stick to themselves and to not co-operate with others outside the guild, indeed they have no need too)
This is pretty much correct, and why I believe it is rather naive of people to think that it's going to be anything like the good ol' days. That's not to say the Pantheon community won't consist mostly of honest, decent people, but it only takes one or two organized guilds to lock everyone else out. And there isn't much you can really do about that; it's simply a sign of the times.
But we should really reserve judgement until we know more, at least until the alpha is out there.
Eventhough us "old schoolers" will uphold the Golden Rule, the reality is we're going to be playing with some players who honestly dont care. However, I dont think there will be so much of this that it will ruin the game for the rest of us. I think having clearly defined rules of conduct and a good group of GM's in-game to handle individuals, groups, and guilds that are chronic offenders would suffice.
@Amsai
I see your perspective, but it really again depends on dungeon design (EQesque Camp vs. WoW Crawl), content development (having enough) and server populations (1500-2000?). Take a zone like Gukbottom for example in EQ, it had multiple camp spots in which a high level group could fight - probably at least 5-6 fairly easily with constant pulls. And, the zone often had 60+ people, so there were many more areas to fight other than max level - the range was approximately 35-50ish. So, while there was only one "instance" of Gukbottom, there was much more opportunity to fight within that zone other than with 1 group which tackles all dungeon content like an instanced WoW crawl. As long as there's enough content to meet the population's demands, guilds won't be able to lock all content (group content especially). I'd say just try to be patient and let it play out. It's easy to add instances of the zones that are already developed if your fears are realized - there's no going back once every zone is instanced.
Azraell said:Like in VG you die/wipe and mob resets automatically. While you will have players who are friendly and helpful they may let you take another shot at the mob. But at the end of the day who takes ownership of the mob gets the loot.... So if you had ownership guild Z kills it you still get loot, give them a peace sign and move on. Every mob is contested...
Agreed. MMOs are both cooperative and competitive games. If you battle your way into a dungeon and wipe, then why would it be wrong for a different group to give it a try?
Amsai, at what point in your scenarios do you have a conversation with the group or players camping the spawn? Maybe you could offer your help or come to an agreement on the length of time on the claim. Maybe offer to take turns and send them a text msg when it pops. Then if they refuse, give them a week.
Then, if the person or group is still unreasonable and still won't allow you access to the content, your diplomacy turns to duplicity. And you go get your suicidal Mage friends and burst down that bossmob the moment it spawns. And, when they try to shame you, you have the higher moral ground, because the chat logs don't lie.
But, more often than not, being diplomatic about a situation will always yield amicable results. And, you won't have those mage friends without it.
@Amsai Good point I can see some people coming in here thinking thats the way this content works. Then some will say edicate should this way some the other and neither would be wrong. They would just be different players with different ideas on how open world contested content should work.
Amsai said: @ Raidan Thanks for the response. And ill say thats why I am happy to take a wait and see approach. That being said I didnt mean to give the impresion that I want instances or channels. Far from it. I will say I support the idea of more dev controls in the open world. And while I would also support content other than only contested (farmed, popped, triggered, or quested boss mobs) in the open world. I still would most definitely want most content to be contested. And I dont see a problem with it being highly competitive and wouldnt see that as bad behavior so much as healthy competition so long as there are plenty of boss mobs to go after. My problem is different from the OP. I imagine a scenario where everyone is expected to be too nice. (Because its ok to be a little selfish). I go to see if X boss is up. Its being camped so I politely leave as per EQ community rules. I check back for the next 30 days and someone is always camping. At what point am I allowed to camp yhe mob Im after? How long am I expected to pass up on what I want to do before I can safely do it without retribution of community isolation on OPEN WORLD content? Here is another scenario. What if after 5 days the camp is free and I begin camping my mob with ny group and then 2 more groups come and dont follow the community rules. Its fine if its rare or isolated but personally I dont think iy will be. Are we gonna blacklist half the server? This game isnt just being made for EQ fans and I think many are underestimating how many non- EQ vets will come to Pantheon. And in fact if you started blacklisting them for the behavior the OP stated, many would feel righteous indignation because they wouldnt think it wrong. I know if it happened to me an I knew nothing of it Id be pissed and hurt that I got blacklisted for something I saw as only natural in contested content. It might come down to what Dullahan said. Maybe have different servers. A PvP server, A PvE normal server and a PvE RP server (for more community focus and policing(?
I really don't see any of these mentioned "fears", in Pantheon.
The games and dungeons you all keep speaking about are in the past & have STATIC spawns with known timer windows. All within a very limited game world (Sol B, Lower Guk, Hate, Fear & Sky.. etc). <-- That is the past.
Expand your minds to a game world with 10x massive higher level dungeons upon release... & triggered quests & mobs, and/or random spawn times. Imagine your worries and questions and fears within that context. How is another guild going to find your raid... or know that it is taking place... or how are they going to assemble their own guild quickly enough to follow you down threw a dungeon..?
Logistically, how will another Guild assemble themselves quickly enough to get everyone to the dungeon so quickly? (That is the first part of the OP question, that he didn't think about).
All pointless ideas, because that^ shadow guild might not even have the Boss mob trigger, to get him to even spawn. So it may be moot, to even follow another guild in hopes of stealing a raid target. Or not have enough the keyed memebers to keep following the raiding guild. The idea that you can follow another guild, knowing what is going to happen along the way is a joke. This isn't 17 years ago... when they used limited resounrces (coding) to build dungeons.
Further more, how does the poser guild that is following the Raid Guild get summoned into that part of the dungeon, or are at the same point in a quest, or past quest blocks..? See how none of what most fear is not possible with simple 2016 game coding?
People have to learn to frame their experiences, under new world order. Pantheon is not going to be the small meager game world EQ was... it will be 10X larger upon release. Guilds will not be on top of each other... they will all be off persuing their own quest lines. Not waiting their turn in Chardok, to get their healer a piece of their epic. Their Healer might have a different quest, etc..
Open Contested mobs are not an issue, their fate is first come, first serve. As always..
No.
I was around for UO beta, EQ beta, WoW beta and just know how to make games, & I simply would not make any of the static camp'able raid mobs in my new game. And knowing Brad's sadistic nature, He won't be having any of that Candy-Cane in his game either. Specially when today's technology you can make it much more exciting dungeon crawls. Stastic spawns...lol
Additionally, EQ was really, really small.
With SOW you could run from Freeport to Qeynos in under 30m. In Pantheon, imagine a starter dungeon like befallen being the size of both Upper & Lower Guk.. befallen is a 2-day adventure. Imagine that being a 2 week adventure at teen lvls. Now, imagine how big/deep the higher level dungeons will be. (Or even if you can find, or know where thay are.)
Most forget how hard it was to find a backpack in EQ.. I would say knowing raid timers in Pantheon is the least of most people's worries.
This concern would be a good direct FAQ.
It is addressed a bit in the FAQ here:
Pantheon is most definitely a modern MMO, with modern graphics and new and exciting features and mechanics. There are already emulators out there that are clones of earlier MMOs and Visionary Realms has no desire to make another emulator. That said, we also feel that many of the features and mechanics of previous MMOs have been abandoned in more recent games, resulting in a less challenging, compelling, deep, and social experience. Pantheon, therefore, will indeed bring back some of these ‘older’ mechanics and ideas, but always with a fresh perspective, some tweaks and revisions, and with an understanding that while gamers’ tastes don’t fundamentally change over time, their situations, lives, and responsibilities do. Likewise, some game mechanics often associated with earlier MMOs involve inordinate amounts of downtime, overly severe penalties, too much competition over content and resources, and even downright boring or overly repetitive gameplay. Our intention, therefore, is not to bring back ‘everything’ from the old days, but rather to pick and choose what makes sense and what is needed to make a fun, social, cooperative, and challenging game.
But maybe a bit more explanation when they are ready to present it. It may be a bit too early in development to divulge that yet, but as we can see it is a concern that the developers have an eye on, which makes me feel good about it.
You can easily divide groups, paths in dungeons. Look at Keasora. It pays to know. And it make crawling them... much more mindful or respective of environment.
Things such as pitfalls, invis walls, false floors, traps, etc. Or the many other nast things you may come across. Every such encounter can tear at the cohesiveness of unprepaired groups & pugs.
KNOWING.. and the knowledge of things is what will win out.
Even things such as pickable locked doors, or "quest enabled" wall lever, that opens a tunnel for group... 30s. Or, inside a chest a "quest spell".. that once you travel deeper & find the pool of faith... and your entire party wades into the pool, allowing One to encate the spell... teleporting your entire raid.. to a new wing and/or lower level.. etc.
I can go on... and on with how a dungeon crawl for two different groups might end up. What you came to do, might not be what you end up doing.
So you see, there are endless ways to have a -Dungeon Head- gobble groups up & spin them in different directions...
Town Scrier: "You don't own that dungeon, it has been here eons and will eat your entire regiment..."
Tuhart said:sorry to press.
So we clear the trash etc all the way to the boss, wipe and a group following does not have to encounter the trash and walks straight up to the boss to have a go at 100%. (correct timings assumed on trash not respawning if they do at all.)
Easily solved in that you can't take down the boss until you/your group: have personally killed the bosses minion's, lesser mobs, and cleared the trash leading up to the final encounter. When the first group wipes, the dungeon resets. And the boss disappears or goes into God mode.
Also, early EQ dungeons Bosses did not reset in an hour. You could have a very long wait til the boss reappeared and when that happened, the entire dungeon respawned. If you were setting on the Boss when that happened and all ready to kill steal, you actually were in a world of hurt. The mobs behind you were all on you at once and either the Boss wiped you or ignored you because you had not followed the dungeon progression. Either way you were in a very bad spot.
Many bosses that were stolen were the rare spawns in the outside world. You could set a week, camping a mob, only to have a higher level, or a group: swoop down on you and take it away from you.
I also see as the core of Truharts concern as being one of character: The altruist being- I got my thing, and I am never coming back here again( or we are a guild of 70, so once all 70 get the thing, we are never coming back here again- and only for mains, not for alts because alts are held to their level. you a level 10 and start a level 1 alt? your level 10 friends find you missing, and after time you no longer have those friends, but then at level 1 you have to make new friends with the available level 1's)
Versis the non-altruist: I got this thing, I see it sells for uber-plat in the wonderfull community driven open marketplace that everyone loves. Instead of moving on, I will subject myself to years of stagnant staleness- skin becoming pale like wormwood in two-towers, camping this thing over and over just so I can sell it and call myself Ferenghi and you cant say anything becaus that is how I likeot play.- kind of character- who would you kiss?
I guess, you just got to know. "Wisdom is knowing what to do when you dont know what to do" likewise, people. ( Me: "Hi I am tailoring." Them: "Yes I know you are tailoring, you have mentioned using acrylia to skillup many times in all our groups, I for one am not skilling nor interested, you have freely given to me many things, many times to help me" Me: Yes I am looking for acrylia now, as this is a down time" Them: " I have acrylia, I have one smal piece, I will sell it to you for..." Me: * FLAG*