I really hope that gear variety can shine in Pantheon and that at the end game there will be very blurry lines as to what gear is BIS for your character.
I hope that at endgame you will have to choose between having a lot of hit points on armor or having various stats but not everything on one item.
For instance one leather bracer might have +25hps and 8ac while another would have +3str and +5dex and 3ac.
This means you have to make choices and that not everyone will value stats the same.
I really hate it when armor just has every stat but its better cause the numbers are just a bit higher.
What do you think about BIS gear ?
Thanks for reading,
Kiz~
No getting around BIS thinking. Part of making a persistent character in an MMORPG is some amount of MinMaxing. No getting around it.
You get to (15) in Blacksmithing, you want to be (16). You have the +5 Uber Sword of Teh R0xx0rz, you want the +6 version. Your mana pool is 8500, but you want 10k. Gear is no different.
Even without spoiler sites, forums, and a ton of meta, you'll BIS your gear because why wouldn't you? It might not be game/server-wide BIS, but it will be for you.
And there is a way to avoid BIS meta - don't pay attention to any of it. Avoid all that out of game info and stay on the n00b side of the 4th wall.
"The fourth wall" is an expression stemming from the world of theater. In most modern theater design, a room will consist of three physical walls, as well as a an imaginary fourth that serves to separate the world of the characters from that of the audience.
Essentially, the "noob" side of the wall is solely using in-game resources to build a list of gear that you want. However, using BiS builders outside of the game is considered "breaking" this wall between the characters and us, the players. There really isn't a way to avoid a BiS meta, and that is alright. As Pantheon will allow us to edit skills (in a way, anyways), the BiS meta must change depending on location.
Taledar said:First, what is the 4th wall.
Ssecond- Yeah i agree, Something will always be best for a particular situation, but I think hes saying theres should no BIS for every situation because everything has the same stats one just has more.
Yes this is what I'm saying..
Thinking about what gear is best for the situation brings much more strategy than just putting on one suit with all the stats you will ever need like it has been in a lot of games for a long time now.
Kiz~
P.S. Even Vanguard had this problem so I'm hoping that it can be avoided in Pantheon.
Taledar said:First, what is the 4th wall.
4th wall is the imaginary line that seperates fiction from reality. Breaking the 4th wall is when a fictional character makes comments about the media (tv, game, etc) they are in, so it's not really a good use here imo. As far as avoiding bis stuff , just don't pay any attention to it - because people will always say this is better than that
There is definitely no preventing the BIS situation. At the end of the day its all number crunching and people will find a way to determine rank the best items. The best thing to do is to step back and do.wear whatever you like.
That being said, I do think the devs should try hard to make dungeon/raids varied enough that it might force players to choose different sets of gear. That would be an interesting balancing issue for the team.
jimm0thy said:Taledar said:First, what is the 4th wall.
4th wall is the imaginary line that seperates fiction from reality. Breaking the 4th wall is when a fictional character makes comments about the media (tv, game, etc) they are in, so it's not really a good use here imo. As far as avoiding bis stuff , just don't pay any attention to it - because people will always say this is better than that
It's not about players perceptions of the loot it's about the developers intentions...
In Vanguard end game loot had every stat under the sun... the stat list was so long it would take up your whole screen at times.
You wore these items and they were the undisputed BIS gear that you could have... there were no choices or strategy in what you equipped because it was obvious what items had bigger numbers.
I hope Pantheon take a more diverse approach to gear so that at any given time the choices may not be as clear and people wear different items for their own reasons not just because its BIS.
Thanks again,
Kiz~
If it isn't one piece of gear, it will be gear in your inventory that you equip as BIS for the situation then. Believe me, I swapped out gear in plenty of games depending on situation. Heck, I do it in single player games.
I get the thinking behind making gear more situational, but all that means is people will carry more in their bags. Played games that do it both ways, and really, it comes down to how OCD you are about how tidy your inventory is. Not much different after that, minus the 5-10 seconds it takes to swap in the right gear for the current task.
As long as gear has stats and players have a choice in what to equip, there will be BIS gear. Sure, there is environmental and situational gear, but that just creates additional categories for more BIS gear. BIS fire gear for wizard, BIS darkness gear for wizard, etc etc.
Players that chose to minmax will always have an advantage over those that choose not to. Its as simple as making better decisions on what gear is better for your character. Thats all this is, and frankly I dont think it can be avoided. These types of decisions are encouraged by design by displaying stats on armor.
Suggestion:
One way to avoid minmaxing at least in part, would be to hide the stats on gear and replace it with a text description of how it helps your character. Example: "You feel awesome power radiating from these gloves, although they dont offer much in the form of protection. Your mind sharpens and you feel shouded in warmth." Sounds to me like this item might have low AC, increased intelligence, and maybe a boost to fire damage or cold resistance. Let players experiment with different gear and judge for themselves which items are more effective. And on the character sheet where we normally see our stats, remove the numbers in favor of graph bars or something that is more vague. You may be able to see that equipping an item moves your intelligence bar up, but it will be hard to mathimatically quantify the change. Minmaxers hate this sort of non-sense, but it would help solve the BIS problem.
Keep in mind no matter what you do, minmaxing and BIS gear will always be discovered, touted on websites, and ultimately used by those who wish to maximize their characters potential.
There will always be BIS gear. But, I do think there could be an argument made for how many BIS gear pieces could potentially be available, which may get groups to experience more content versus following one linear gear path.
EQ controlled it fairly well through Launch-Kunark by having stats that matter (somewhat) and large racial differences between stats. An Ogre Warrior in EQ with approximately 150 strength versus a gnome with 90ish made a difference. So, that gnome warrior might have went for Strength versus Dex/Agi (although, ultimately AC/HP trumped most everything for a tank - it just wasn't well known at launch). But, the point is, if there are are large racial divides between starting stats, and stats that matter and are equally important for the role - Agi affecting dodge; dex affecting blocking/riposte, AC effecting mitigation, STA affecting HP total, etc. and if one stat doesn't monopolize all others for being most important - then I think there could be BIS gear pieces based off your class/race selection and trying to fill in the "stat gaps." And with Hybrid tanks the above would be similar with adding either INT/WIS to the equation. I realize that's a lot of "IFs." Either way, there would still be BIS gear, but it would be 10 BIS helmets depending on what race you chose, versus 1 overall BIS helmet.
I think this discussion brings up the larger issue as well, on how to control mudflation with expansions while also increasing the power. I'd rather see gear progression follow a similar path from launch forward. Example: if a BIS AC/Str/Dex Bracer was 8 AC 5 str/3 dex at launch - first expansion could be 15 AC 10 str/6 dex instead of adding 15 AC 10 str/6 dex/6 agi 50 hps/mana. It might be more "boring" as you would follow a similar path of progression each expansion depending on race, but I think it could control BIS from one BIS overall, to multiple BIS pieces based off race selection.
Think they are solving this by having a large variety of gear options that will have to be switched out under certain conditions. i.e. - you enter an icy crypt with cold traps etc., if you do not equip cold resist items in enough slots, the cold damage and miscellaneous effects could cause too many issues for you to effectively progress. Keep in mind, just because it is cold in there does not mean that is the only thing you realize you need to counter by additional gear switching on the fly.
BiS gear would start to be talked about for various conditions or specific zones instead of "overall" best...
Pyye
Good suggestions, Raidan. I'd love to see items that transcend expansion mudflation, similar to items we saw in EQ1. Flow Black Silk Sash, Wurmslayer, Shruken Goblin Skull Earring, Blade of Carnage, Fungi Tunic, etc. These items were valuable far beyond their expansion. They werent exactly top tier compared to raid gear, but until then, they held great value and were some of the most coveted and traded items.
It's important to note that all of these dropped from max lvl mobs either. I would love to see unique and coveted gear like this in Pantheon.
Amsai said: Even if you could break it down to 10 or so BiS pieces per class/slot/mana type/etc. I bet players would migrate towards a preferred BiS. Ive seen it before, different buy equall pieces dont work. What happens is one piece of gear is considered by community better than the other, no matter how false that mathematically is.
I agree - I've seen it before as well, which is why there'd be a lot of "IFs" to not fall into that trap. Especially once expansions are released.
Hypothetical example:
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1. Assume Rogue needs STR/DEX/AGI
2. Assume STR/DEX/AGI does the following:
STR = Weapon Min/Max Damage
DEX = Weapon Accuracy
AGI = Weapon Speed
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Now consider the following race starting stats example where the three important main stats are "equal":
Barbarian Rogue has starting stats of 120 Str / 80 Dex / 90 Agi
Hafling Rogue has 80 STR / 100 DEX / 110 AGI
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Now again, this is assuming an "IF" that all those 3 stats are equal among importance for a rogue, then BIS gear would be different based off starting race.
A Barbarian rogue would want more DEX/AGI gear; whereas, a halfling rogue would want STR gear. And, then, BIS gear drops could be modified further. BIS Dex/Agi gear being 10 AC, 5 dex/5agi OR you could have BIS 10 AC/10AGI and another at 10AC/10 DEX
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Where BIS gear is really "only" one piece of gear is when stats don't matter anymore because everyone has maxed stats, gear becomes like EQlive currently where gear is AC +All stats, or there is only truly "one" main stat of importance that trumps all others for classes so they focus on that stat.
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But again, there will always be BIS gear, even with my suggestions, but you could provide more BIS options than just one BIS item overall for all class/races.
To expand on what Raiden was saying, I think giving all stats a little more relative value to every class will also help blur the lines between what is BiS. One of the problems I found in many MMOs is that you only had to focus on your HP stat (stamina/constitution) and then 1, maybe 2 other stats for any class. When you actually make something like intelligence useful to a rogue or agility useful to a caster, it could open up different builds organically before even considering specializations. I mean, how many times have you actually seen a wizard focus on dodging rather than pumping whatever stat most boosted mana or dps? I think its time to start thinking outside of that box.
Elrandir said:The colored mana system makes it seem like BiS will at least be somewhat subjective since the mana-color will be gear-dependent.
I so hope this is true...with stat differences for starting races (my ogre should be stronger than your gnome!) and colored mana. I could see BIS being more subjective than just 1 piece no matter what. Also if they are still going for the divergent paths of classes (like the cleric can wear Plate as a more defensive character or plate woven raiment for the more caster type cleric) then BIS is once more split on how you play your cleric