Thanks that makes sense now... I am with you, I can take bits and pieces from games but they individually lack something. I liked Vanguard too and still think it had the best fishing mechanic ever. Hey, let's you and I develop a game that combines the best from EQ and Vanguard... err wait a minute, that is PANTHEON!!
Pyye
Pyye said:Thanks that makes sense now... I am with you, I can take bits and pieces from games but they individually lack something. I liked Vanguard too and still think it had the best fishing mechanic ever. Hey, let's you and I develop a game that combines the best from EQ and Vanguard... err wait a minute, that is PANTHEON!!
Pyye
I certainly hope so. Pantheon is really the only MMORPG on my radar right now, and that's the only reason why.
BRADGAMES "R" US HYPETRAIN GOOOOO~
Now don't toss me out but i like the idea of sales been driven by location ie where the crafters are. Something i quite like in ESO was the amount of trade that occured around the blacksmith. People were there as they needed to craft (for basic items) and due to that you had people there wanting to buy.
this wasn't just gear, but you had trades occurring: ore for lumber etc
In addition (not instead of)
i like the idea of guild stalls.
A guild could work together to build a stall (something i think would add guild value and pride), choose its location (possibly be able to move it if sales were slow, but at a cost??). Guild crafters, gatherers could then sell items through their market to anyone who visited (mini AH guild not global). If crafting is as good as i hope and develops so that skilled crafters are sought after, guilds would gain benefit of having gatherers and carfters. they would create sales for the guild and bring the buyers?
Alternatively, rather than have AH style markets, perhaps these stalls only list guild members patterns/schematics. Alowed for messages to be sent from buyer to crafter or allow for communication between the two?
There are some strong and conflicting opinions in this thread about how trade should be handled. Points have been made for both arguments (AH vs player trading). However this ends up, I hope the devs choose the system that best fits the style of game they're making and the playerbase they're hoping to capture. While having an AH isnt single handedly going to destroy the game for us old schoolers, judging by the responses in this thread it would clearly be a chink in the armor. Too many of these caveats I fear will spark concerns of feature creep.
Interdependance is a major tenant of this game, and I fail to see how an auction house supports this vision. That said, I am not wholesale against tools that greese the wheels of commerce. A system with less opportunity for abuse and subsequently mudflation would be my preference.
Tuhart said:What does old schoolers mean exactly please?
Those who played and prefer old school style MMO's, which is what this game is being based on. To quote from the Game Features and Summary thread: A classic take on epic MMO adventure.
Liav said:I don't really agree that the extreme inconveniences of original EQ are what made the game meaningful. Everyone's first MMO is their most memorable experience, generally speaking. EQ was the trendsetter for the genre in a lot of ways, and recapturing the "old magic" is probably going to be an impossibility until someone makes a memory destroying drug.
Pantheon is going to be a race to the endgame just like any other game (for a lot of people), and the people who want to make a more casual experience out of it will have the ability too, just like any other game. As I've stated in other threads, this is pretty much an inevitability.
Let's take Project 1999 for instance. Pretty much all of the inconveniences of classic EQ exist now and existed when the server launched. That didn't hinder the game from becoming a rush to the endgame, and it still doesn't. Before anyone says it, the fact that the game was locked to the Kunark era for several years is irrelevant to the point I'm making.
Maybe I'm stubborn, but, Pantheon is the first hope I've had for a great MMO in a long time, so, I'm not trying to argue/debate in many threads with you out of spite, but I want to share my thoughts and hopefully you'll realize that I and others aren't just EQ homers. With that said...
EQ wasn't my first MMO - I played Sierra Online Games (Mainly Shadows of Yserbius) and Ultima Online for many years before I ever played Everquest - EQ was just the best experience I have had in an MMO past or present, so it's not nostalgia that I'm trying to recapture. The dismissal of old game features as simply being nostalgic and being impossible to replicate is a terrible argument, and I apologize if that sounds rude, but I've been told that I'm arguing for nostalgia for over 10 years now after seeing one casual MMO after another miserably fail. And, strangely enough, I didn't even realize that EQ was special or unique in the moment. All the people I gamed with at the time felt that EQ was going to be the first of many great 3D MMOs. Obviously that didn't occur. It wasn't until many years and casual MMOs later that I started realizing what made EQ special and unique and what made EQ great and why the experience hadn't been recaptured.
And I agree with you that some of the unncessary inconvenience/punishing mechanics of original EQ should be removed such as staring at the spellbook when medding not being able to see the screen, class exp penalities when some of the classes were worse than those who didn't receive exp penalities, or non-stacking items (especially tradeskill). Or changing bad class design like warriors/rogues only having 1-2 usuable skills (until much later expansions). And improvements like VG made such as offensive/defensive targeting; but where we differ is when you expand inconvenience to include necessary time-sinks to make the world feel alive. Remove corpse runs, player trading, inventory management, meaningful travel, etc. and Pantheon just becomes another "game" and not a virtual world. There has to be boredom, excitement, grinds, frustration, anger, downtime etc. to make the gains and achievements feel more satisifying. EQ mastered the ever dangling carrot.
And yes, all games (even EQ) will have/had those who race to the end game, but again, if you remove all the necessary immersion adding time-sinks (see above), then even the power gamer has a longer leveling curve - but that really isn't even the point. You're correct that there will always be players that will skip content in order to achieve max level the quickest, but that does not mean Pantheon should be designed to cater to their playstyle. Let them celebrate their large... and be able to shout server firsts, but don't dumb down the game world to cater to the lowest common denominator. I don't want immersive time-sinks built in to punish power-levelers - I want them integrated to create a living, breathing world.
And, as much as you want to argue aganist it, you can't use P1999 as a comparison. All P1999 is is a nice run down memory lane. Most players that played on P1999 were already familiar with EQ: the best zones to level in, the quickest ways to travel, the quests, the best drops, gameplay tactics, class mechanics, mob behaviors, maps were available, wikis were available, etc. There's been no games released since EQ that have had the same mechanics, so there is no true basis for comparison to say what will happen if Pantheon took the best of EQ and added elements from VG and new ideas to make it even better. Powerlevers may still bypass much of the content like they did at EQlaunch, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to recapture EQ's magic.
And, a final thought, but why do you let the rush to end game be the main point in many of your arguments? All people are going to have different play styles, available play times, etc., but what made EQ special is the game was built and players adapted (or they didn't) - they didn't build a game and try to cater to all. And it was the journey to 50, 60, 70 that was special - not the raiding game. I hope Pantheon adopts the "You're in OUR world now" motto.
*Edit formatting
I've never been a big fan of the Auction Hall. I think its just one more thing that removes Player to Player interaction. If Pantheon wants to bring back the "Social" aspect of the MMO, I think AHs should be left out. But I dont think thats going to happen. I think theyll find there way into the game in some form or another.
So why not treat Selling/Trading like a tradeskill. Give those that thrive on the economic portion of an MMO goals to reach and abilities/progression to unlock.
Everyone starts out the same of course:
Street Merchant (Street Corner Salesman):
These merchants do there business on the streets. Shouting out to passer-bys, advertising there wares.
Your inventory is limited to what you can carry....or if you're near a bank, whatever is in your bank. This is basically what EQ was at launch. EC Tunnel for most. North Freeport for others
As you acrue amounts of skill, xp, reputation, etc., you, as a merchant, gain abilities/advantages.
The Fruit Stand:
Maybe at a certain point you're able to set up a Stand along the streets of a city. This enables you to have a larger inventory, and a stable location to do your business. You can still shout out what you're selling, but players can also left click on your stand to see what you have for sale. (Your Fruit Stand would be built by a Craftsman, woodworker perhaps)
The Street Merchant and the Fruit Stand make up your basic street Bazaar.
The Shop Around the Corner
As your skill/xp/reputation grows you can buy/rent a permanent building. You can go partners with others of the same or greater skill level. or you can go it on you own. This allows for an even larger inventory of goods. You will also be able to hire some help. This will be an NPC that can man your store while you're out adventuring, crafting, exploring...or not online at all. It will be able to complete transactions with any patron that enters your store.
Also at this level, you get put on the City Registry of Merchants. This Registry can be accessed at various locations throughout the city. The registry (Character, Store Name, and Location), will be a list of all Shop Owners that have a store in the city or surrounding provinces. (Trade District). Any player can access the registry. Just click on a name and see what he/she has for sale. If said player finds something worth buying then they must go to the store and buy from the NPC or Store Owner (if available).
Now, the NPC is hired help. The NPC gets paid. Its not a slave. It won't be working 24/7. It will come to work in the morning and go home at night. So, unless you personally man your store during the night hours, it will be closed.
And this is where fees start piling up on the merchant. Rent, wages, and listing fees with the City Registry. So your goods will most likely be priced higher than the street bazaar, but you have the benefit of the citywide listing, a stable location, and an npc that can complete transactions while you're away.
As you continue to advance, you gain Registry access in your store. So now you can browse the local markets while manning (restocking, setting prices) your own store. You also gain the ability to hire more than one NPC, so your store can remain open at all hours without your need to be present or online.
Franchises:
An even further progression could allow you to open stores in multiple cities. You can have your primary location at Kingsreach. Then have start-ups in Reignfall or Wild's End.
And perhaps you can rent out a portion of your store to a fellow merchant, thus lowering your overhead, but maybe cutting into your total inventory.
Also at this highest merchant level you can make a purchase directly from your In Store City Registry of Merchants. This won't be a mailbox transaction. A Registry purchase would entail you sending an NPC runner to the store from which you're buying. So the lag time from clicking "Buy" to when you receive the item is dependent upon the proximity between the two stores.
Of course for separate Trade Districts to develop and flourish on their own, Instant Travel between cities needs to be at non-existant.
Another thing to encourage player to player interaction by way of buying/selling would be to modify the mailbox system.
Mailbox for sending messages is a good thing. "Meet you here at so and so time" "Raid on friday" etc etc.
Mailbox should not be used to tranfer items or coin. Thats should happen face to face. (or player to Store NPC)
Liav said:Sniggz said:I'm completely for a 100% player driven market. One of the coolest things about classic EQ to me was how East Common Lands tunnel became the trading hub of the world organically. The devs didn't program any infrastructure, or declare it as such. It just happened naturally as players explored and put their mark on the world.
Its just fascinating to me and something I'd rather see than any sort of system or area hard programmed into the game.
in my opinion, if you give players the opportunity to create and put their mark on the world instead of doing everything for them (this is the market area, this is where you do market things), it creates a deeper connection between players and the world that the devs have created.
Just my own crazy thoughts and opinions of course.
Like I said though, take Project 1999 for instance.
This is what buying things in Project 1999 (classic EC tunnel) has been reduced to: http://ahungry.com/eqauctions
Even if there is no hard-coded way to do it, someone is going to. Right now in P99, there is next to no communication between seller and buyer. You just use the searchable list to find stuff you want to buy, send a tell, and pick it up. It's not like there's some transcendental communication going on between players. Your average conversation looks like this:
"yo, I'll buy that X for 1.3k"
"k, meet me at t2"
Open trade, click accept, say "ty", go about your day.
Is the level of inconvenience involved in the auctioning process worth this extremely limited player interaction?
You're view point on what you want out of this game is completely opposite of what I'm desperately hoping it's going to be.
To answer the question you posed at the end of your post - YES. I hope to god VR takes every step to preserve any and all social interaction as possible. These little convenience features you're looking for, such as an AH so you don't have to interact with other players because it's an inconvenience for you, are what has ruined the genre in my opinion. Following your logic that the social interaction isn't important, why not add a dungeon finder tool as it exists in WoW today... because I mean your average conversation looks like this:
"LFG X Dungeon"
:: receive invite to group ::
I sure as hell don't want a dungeon finder tool, and I sure as hell don't want an Auction House tool. I want to interact with the other people playing the game as much as possible.
You also posted something about Pantheon being a race to end game, and I have no idea what that has to do with anything. Especially regarding how in-game trading / sales should be handled. Some mad frenzied rush to end game may be how you choose to approach MMO's, but it certainly isn't how I approach them. I want to take the world in and interact with other players as much as possible.
It honestly sounds to me like you'd enjoy any of the hundreds of other MMOs in the market today filled with all the convenience features to make your heart content and tools that directly encourage racing through content. It's literally every MMO on the market right now. Pick any one of them. I personally hope this isn't what Pantheon becomes.
I feel like changing fundamental, classic mechanics that have gathered us all here is the path that new generation MMOs have taken, and lost us. If we start to veer away from the original ideals, try to 'improve' on them, then we lose what we found attractive about them in the first place.
I for one, feel that the original EQ market system of interacting with one another was great. Plus it's less programing :) The current state of P99 isn't a great example of a healthy market system... mostly because the amount of time the server was stuck in Kunark and the overwhelming amount of items available.
I really don't know how the devs feel, or know where the game is headed, but if even small portion of the suggested changes from this forum are listened to and made to Pantheon, then this wouldn't be the game we all loved and hoped for. Hopefully y'all are just bored and looking to make chat because most of what I read lately is apparently some other game I didn't come here for.
I would play a Cleric, Bard, Monk, Ranger, all of them of course. Why limit your selection. Oh and before people blow a gasket I won't be boxing, I don't have the coordination for that. How about an ingame forum. You can auction stuff set up times and its all interpersonal. I am sure I am simplifying stuff too much and it probably wouldn't work. But my opinion is the game has to be about interaction and interdependency. It's about the journey not the destination if someone misses say Dalnir (for example) people will be like woah you never been to dalnir to raid such and such!?!?!
Make cool adventures for all levels, now how to lock out the more powerful levels is up to you, if you decide to do that idea. I never seen a level 10 raid. Besides, like I mentioned before in a post take all my suggestions with a crap ton of salt cause feature creep will kill a game. You all have a vision for the game stick with it then consider adding on to it.
How do you all feel about a lot of items being one per account yet tradeable? I am talking items not reagents or stackable drops. Reason I am thinking is it would cut down on camping spots to own the market. It would keep the player economy in check as well. So once you make your way somewhere and happen to get your desired item, it would be time to head somewhere else because you could only carry one.
If you think, well yeah but my other toon cannot carry one, you would just bank it over. Just throwing ideas...
Pyye said:How do you all feel about a lot of items being one per account yet tradeable? I am talking items not reagents or stackable drops. Reason I am thinking is it would cut down on camping spots to own the market. It would keep the player economy in check as well. So once you make your way somewhere and happen to get your desired item, it would be time to head somewhere else because you could only carry one.
If you think, well yeah but my other toon cannot carry one, you would just bank it over. Just throwing ideas...
Sounds super inconvenient and a sure way to guarantee that I never roll an alt, ever.
I think the biggest problems with game economies getting inflated is that over time, plat sinks start to fade from games. I don't know why developers of games decide to do that.
Take EQ for instance. All of the money trades places between player's hands, there isn't any actual money leaving the economy. There's billions (literally, billions with a B) of plat changing hands in EQ and I can't remember the last time I actually spent decent money at an NPC. I probably spend a few thousand plat on NPCs every expansion. A few thousand compared to the tens of millions sitting in my bags.
Pyye said:How do you all feel about a lot of items being one per account yet tradeable?
I see your intentions, but it wouldn't restrict farming. People would sell the items, trade them to friends, guildies, etc. and be free to farm for lore items again. Farming will never be fully controlled without a instancing, trivial loot codes,and bind-on pickup, but I wouldn't want any of those options to prevent/restrict farming as I feel they trivialize/restrict gameplay.
I'd rather creative mechanics be implemented than restrictions be in place such as non-static spawn points (even in a camp style dungeon) - maybe the Kobold King spawns in his throne room, study, and bedroom, multiple forms of horizontal progression - example - multiple zones across the world dropping similar best in slot group gear versus one location such as the FBSS (Maybe a 20% haste item with 10 AC and another with 20% haste/10 str., etc), a mob calls in reinforcement when he spawns versus just "spawning" to prevent /afk solo necro-type classes and the need for a group/crowd control, and I'm sure with the introduction of climates as a factor in Pantheon could result in some creative mechanics that would restrict farming as well (such as needing buffs etc. to be extremely effective in zone). Just a few ideas, but I'm sure many more could be brainstormed.
Sniggz said:I'm completely for a 100% player driven market. One of the coolest things about classic EQ to me was how East Common Lands tunnel became the trading hub of the world organically. The devs didn't program any infrastructure, or declare it as such. It just happened naturally as players explored and put their mark on the world.
Its just fascinating to me and something I'd rather see than any sort of system or area hard programmed into the game.
in my opinion, if you give players the opportunity to create and put their mark on the world instead of doing everything for them (this is the market area, this is where you do market things), it creates a deeper connection between players and the world that the devs have created.
Just my own crazy thoughts and opinions of course.
100% this. I do not wish to see any Auction House system implemented at all. EC Tunnels in EQ was such a great community. Not having an Auction House is also a deterrent against botters who do nothing but monitor the Auction House to buy low and sell high.
Dekaden said:In the EC tunnel days, you had to be in the trading game for a while to understand what items were sold for, what items were desired. It was learned knowledge that took time and effort to aquire. I like this aspect and think it adds a level of investment and pride to the game. These two things can keep people playing well beyond the games expiration date. I also enjoyed the organic creation the the EC tunnel trading area. People were proud of that, and pride drives time investment which keeps players playing.
The biggest problem with auction houses is that the system is fundamentally flawed to item inflation. It has to be by definition. As Item_X gets farmed more and more and posted on the Auction House at Price Y. Then the more people will post it for Y-1. And Y-2 and so on... Yes it might level out eventually, but it is still designed for an undercutters market, which ruins the economy in the long term.
Auction houses also cut out the middle man trade, which I was a HUGE fan of during my short time in Vanguard (Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe there was an auction house at release)
I became friends with one of the best crafters on my server (Shoutout to Spongiform) and he would sell me UR horseshoes at 6k gold each. I would buy them in bulk, and sell them to players at 8k each. It even got to the point where he would just mail me UR horseshoes without me even paying him upfront because of the relationship we had built as crafter and distributer. This does not exist in a system with an Auction House. Pantheon is preaching about being community based but if an Auction House is implemented, it is by definition, endorsing anti-social gameplay.
Two great points about programs (bots) and middle man selling...
Having a free and open selling market does allow for cool opportunities to make your coin. This is dynamic and adds to immersion in itself. It would certainly cut down on abusive programs that auto buy and sell to control the market, I would much rather see an individual's work effort to acheive this...
That brings up a great point... I am hoping that players can only "specialize" in two key areas of tradeskills. This way, like the class set-ups, it creates individuality and differences on what players can and cannot do. So let's say there was a merchant specialty, this might allow someone to accept offers from others and sell via marketplace. If you do not specialize in merchant, you can only sell to players that have merchant skill. You would still be able to make coin, just not as much as the merchants, who control pricing in the market against each other. Obviously, you could make a heck of a deal to a merchant that does not know his business. If you are a merchant on top of your buisness, you could arrange sales with regular players for prices much less than what you know things are selling for. Think this could be a cool twist...
Pyye
East Commonlands tunnels became the default place for sales because it was convenient and relatively safe for trading(not on RZ where I was tho lol).
I'd like to see something like that but designed into the game. A trading post at some convenient location run by NPC's.
In order to solve the spam of it all you could have a local auction house interface that only worked while while you were standing in the trading post.
Or if you were really crazy you could pay NPC auctioneers to fire up an on the spot bidding war. This would probably only be used for hot ticket items.
Trick is to only have one of these places so everyone has to come from far and wide to trade. That was you have to commit to a trip over there if you want to unload goods.
Thanks for reading,
Kiz~
Perhaps you could include an auction house fee as an incentive for people to sell in person, but if desperate, willing to pay the fee to post their sale and the purchaser to pay their fee to buy the item. That way the lazy sellers and buyers pay a bit extra and the more active players get better deals to compensate for not always being online at the right time. You could also have guild auction houses, where the fees are added to the guild's coffers for communal use and need, maybe to help with guild upgrades. I liked how a player in Aion would go into merchant mode and literally set up his little shop so that you could click on him to see his wares and prices. It's a great immersion tool, whether used for both online and offline sales and can turn any location into an business opportunity.
While I don't think that we MUST have an "organic" in game sale like EQ did, I don't want to see a zero-interaction auction house/mail system either. In classic EQ, you actually needed to physically be there to sell your item. You needed to barter, know the value of an item, and it also gave you the option to trade items instead of just doing a pure-cash transaction. I preferred that the best personally. Then, later when the bazaar came out, you could go AFK and have a person auto buy from your shop, but at least you still needed to be online. I didn't like that as much, but at least you still had to be there.
Then along comes the WoW style. You can put your item up for sale with zero additional effort on your part, then go about your day. Eventually someone buys your item, then through some magical system, the funds and instantly transfered to you and the person gets their item magically delivered. I'm sorry, but that's just stupid. It's like we're in a fantasy world where people haven't figured out guns yet, but ebay exists? And you don't even need to be bothered to drop the item in the mail yourself?
Here's a system I thought up that could balance it all out while avoiding the "cheating" mechanic of the WoW system. I would propose three methods of sale, all existing side by side.
1) The old fashioned. You run a manual auction where you can haggle, barter etc. You need to actually be there, but it's free and players can find their own faction-neutral area to do it so you can trade with "the enemy" if you so desire, like the EC tunnle in classic EQ.
2) Player run shop in a housing setting. This would be sort of similar to UO, where you could have your house double as a trade station where people could come. Maybe you could "hire" an NPC to run your shop, so you don't need to be online/home for the sale to happen, but you need to pay a monthly stipend to have this NPC around. The buying player needs to actually come to your house, and when the sale is made, you need to actually come pick the money up at your house. None of this "instant e-trade" crap like WoW had. This would be ideal for selling crafted items, and you could gain a reputation for being a jeweler/smith etc. Maybe you could even buy advertising space in major cities so people know they can come to your house.
3) Public bazaar with NPC middle men run similar to the above option. You need to pay a % of the total sale to the auction NPC as a gold sink. The player buying the item needs to actually come pay/pick the item up in person, and you need to go get the money in person later. This would obviously be a regional system keeping the economy local. If you want to trade with an enemy faction, you'd need to go to the site mentioned in area 1.
Any combination (preferrably) all of the above would be great. Again, the only thing I do NOT want to see is this low-effort immersion breaking WoW style auction house, where you do nothing and the item/money magically appears in every mailbox in the world simultaneously until you decide which mailbox to go to. If there is a mail system in game, item mail should NOT be instant travel, and you should need to pick ONE pick up location. The item should reach that item in a realistic travel time based on how far away it is coming from.
What do you guys think about the system that was used (if I recall correctly) in Lineage 2? Where people would have stands. You would just go up to them and buy.
Or perhaps a mix-match of a system that was used in Path of Exile (poe.trade). Okay, I know it's a third party but you could easily go on and haggle with the various players and have that player interaction.
I'm not a big fan on AH to be truthful, I'm not really looking for a dumpster.
@Arksien has a pretty good point that seems enjoyable at 2). I feel like regional systems may be a bit of a hassle though. I wouldn't want to personally travel all over the place just to find an item. It'd cut down my gameplay a hell of a lot for an upgrade? May as well farm it at that point.
There were already two mega-threads on this issue that were locked because they got a bit "out-of-hand" and pretty much hashed everything to death. My guess is this one will follow suit. Here's the other threads if you want a good read:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2594/death-to-the-auction-house
I don't tend to like the concept of the auction house tbh. Its too.. streamlined.
But i'll roll with the concept. What i would really like to see is mechanics to provide faction-based auction houses. I'm going to use EQ races for this example.
Lets say you have Ogres, Humans, and Dark Elves in your game. Each gets their own auction house(or trade area) in their own starting city. Items bought from each Auction House require the faction of the particular race of the Auction House it was bought at to wear or use. As an example.. lets say Alice is a Human. She buys a Short Sword from Bob in the Freeport Auction House. If she then tanks her faction with the humans, she can no longer wear that sword. Similarly, if she wants to buy something in the Dark Elves Auction House, she has to raise her faction with the Dark Elves to buy and use it. Automated Trade is easy within your own faction, hard with members of another faction or race, unless its done manually face to face.
You should also be able to set prices based on faction. If selling out-of-faction, that gets one price, in-faction another. Because you likely want stuff that is easy to farm for Dark Elves, be valuable for Humans, and vice versa. To spur trade(assuming you're in favor and haven't been killing us).