Cheating is always using something in ways it was not meant to do (cheat codes, third party sniffing programs, third party programs that decrypt ini files to change player health etc), exploiting are ussually using game mechanics thorugh bugs, or in ways not intended to further your self. In a single player game exploiting is whatever, if you want to great, if you dont even better. In a MMO though exploiting is same thing as cheating. If you find an exploit you should report it, and not do it repeatedly to get to lvl 100 fast...
Z-axis bugs were one of the more popular ways for jealous spectators to cry foul. IIRC, the Conquest ban in Sleepers was a z-axis bug being exploited, but it was on the 4th Warder, so it wasn't like Conquest didn't have the game or skills. SOE just knew their Sleeper script was fubar, so they had designed the 4th warder to be an impenetrable brick wall and the z-axis thing got Conquest over that wall. This angered SOE, so they banned that entire guild, or most of it.
And my Katta example got me reported by angry spectator who wanted the camp, and when the GM came to warn me and then monitor me, I did exactly what you suggest. The pathing exploit was 100% stress free, but it wasn't like fear kiting was the hardest thing in the world anyway. The exploit simply added two more guards to my rotation because of mana efficiency.
And the people crying foul on exploits are the same folks who decided the winning strats on Aaryonar and every other "unbeatable boss" of the Velious era were also exploits. Go through the history of exploit drama in EQ1, and like 95% of the reports came from either middle/lower tier guilds who were angry that the uber guilds kept doing more than them with fewer people, or from whiny soloers who saw someone doing it easier, faster and better than them.
Here are my consolidated thoughts on the matter after reading some other people's comments.
If you don't explicitly say that I can't do something. Then it isn't cheating. If an exploit is determined to be against the TOS, then it goes from "clever use of game mechanics" to "bannable offense". But until that point, I will push the limits of every game that I play.
Furor said:Here are my consolidated thoughts on the matter after reading some other people's comments.
If you don't explicitly say that I can't do something. Then it isn't cheating. If an exploit is determined to be against the TOS, then it goes from "clever use of game mechanics" to "bannable offense". But until that point, I will push the limits of every game that I play.
I see it like this: The game sets certain implicit rules. Like, a mob that you attack must be able to attack you back (unless you can keep it from doing so by using in-world means as root, snare, fear, ...). If you find a clever way to avoid following these implicit rules, you are exploiting, wether its an actual bug or just something the devs didn't think of. As others said above, it is often a grey area...but IMO not everything must be spelled out to see it's wrong (or at least, no good sportsmanship :)
Still I think finding exploits is a good thing, if you inform the devs. Finding an exploit and telling it only your friends/guild with the intent to abuse it is cheating however.
jimm0thy said:Kilsin said:jimm0thy said:No difference, exploiting is cheating - people exploiting know what they are doing isn't suppose to work that way but they do it anyway to get something easily
Some exploits are bad enough that they can be game breaking but they still can't be classified as cheating, since the devs provided us with those methods of exploiting their content, if you are thinking of duping etc. will that is straight up cheating not an exploit and should be dealt with quickly and severely in my opinion.
So if we're playing Monopoly and I'm the banker you are ok with me taking bonuses from the bank , because I'm simply exploiting the games rules / mechanics , not cheating
If we're both taking a test to get a job and I happen to walk to the front and grab the answer sheet while the instructor is away , you're fine with that. Its not cheating, its just exploiting the fact that the answers were there
If you and I are both camping for super awesome magic drop that only drops once per server and I just happen to know that by standing 5 feet away ontop of the third hill and spin my character counterclockwise that I can get a one hit kill , you're ok with that cause its not cheating
Example 1: No because it's blatant cheating, not exploiting. You're stealing money or abusing your power in a position of trust to cheat which I would have no chance of doing even if I wanted to.
Example 2: No because it's blatant cheating, not exploiting. You're stealing test results, which I could do too if I wanted, but it's cheating.
Example 3: Yes, but I would report you and the exploit to the devs because it's an exploit that is achieved by using in-game mechanics that can be fixed by the devs and remove/rollback of any items/currency gained and anyone in the game could do it.
I am not sure you have a good understanding of the difference between the two mate, I will paste the meaning below so you can hopefully see what I mean but this is in no way a dig at you, I have had many people reply across multiple platforms that do not understand the difference properly.
Exploit:
I associate it with the following compared to EQ1:
- Exploit= crouching and shrinking and wriggling to get through the door to the hole (which I did not understand, it was easy enough to get a key). The Hermit in South Karana to a mage (before he found his keys).
- Cheating = warping or suddenly appearing when a special mob appears. RMT'ing or suddenly selling your account after all this time.
Ok so Cheats are something that are 3rd party creations, so the act of cheating is a players fault, and the 3rd party who created the cheats in the first place.
Now Exploits are caused by code written by the devs, but they didn't put them there on purpose, they are essentially bugs, so you cannot fault them for it. Exploits are found typically by players, and said player has a fundamental choice to make:
A- Report the exploit so the devs can patch it up
B- Begin exploiting it for their benefit
C- Do nothing and move along.
Options A and C are essentially a proper response and a neutral response, so no fault at all. Option B, choosing to begin exploiting is ONLY the players fault.
With this explanation in mind, the acts of cheating and exploiting are one in the same as far as the player is concerned, and should be treated the exact same way. Permanent Ban. A game company cannot show leniency when it comes to actions that directly damage the game and its environment.
Kilsin said:lyrina said:"Exploiting" is (in most cases) another word for "using gamefeatures in a clever way":P. "Cheating" is always a bad thing, imo.
Spot on ;)
It is interesting hearing people's takes on it, but Exploiting is basically using features and mechanics to your advantage, usually not in a way that the developers intended, so it isn't classified as cheating because we are just using what the game provides us with ;)
Using features and mechanics to your advantage, usually not in a way that the developers intended, is not an exploit, it is emergent gameplay.
An exploit is using a bug(broken aspects of the game) in the game for personal gain, such as currency or Item Dupe.
cram9030 said:I am with the majority here. Exploiting is doing something in game that gives you an advantage but was not intended.
The issue I have, is that MMO's do not come with a set of instructions of what is or isn't intended. Most of the time it is a generic manual and you have to work it out for yourself.
So if by bad programming you can do something, then how can you tell if it was intentionally programmed that way or is an exploit.?
Back in EQ where you cast a damage shield on a lower level char running past, could be considered an exploit of a game mechanic depending on if it was designed that way. Would the players know. I can do it so it must be right, but it is possible it was only intended for people in your own group (like EQ2). When I started playing I would never have known.
In game there might be a mechanic when you walk past a certain point that mobs spawn and attack. Now is it cheating/exploiting if your got back and walk past that spot again to spawn the mobs?
You can say it is exploiting the mechanics of the same but it was designed that way.
It is a grey area. Cheating is where you use 3rd party software to bot while you are asleep. Sadly this is pretty much in all MMO's and FPS games where an application can control what info is sent to the servers.
It's like if a mining node in a particular location for example always had a rare ore in it when it spawns. Is it exploiting to mine that particular node when you see it because you know it has a rare ore? It may not have been the programmers intent but you know from experience.
Like I said it's that mysteriously grey area in game play.
Exploiting is cheating. I mean, dupe bugs are generally considered to be exploits if you subscribe to the cheating/exploiting being two different things. Whether or not you use CheatEngine to modify your plat values or find an in-game means to duplicate plat infinitely is irrelevant. The end result is the same.
I could say the same thing about finding an in-game means to break your run speed to be 6x faster than it should be, or using CE to modify the memory values. At the end of the day, you're getting the exact same end result and it isn't intended gameplay.
That said, things like these actually need to be patched out of the game in a timely manner when discovered. The z-axis leashing exploit in VG:SOH is a great example of unintended gameplay that goes unpatched for so long that it actually becomes a core game mechanic.
If you abuse an exploit or use a third party application to cause unintended gameplay, the punishment for it should be the same, given that you didn't make an effort to bring it to the attention of the developers. If you use it for personal gain, you deserve to have your character stripped (in the event of a plat dupe) at the very least, a suspension/ban at the worst.
Boulda said:The issue I have, is that MMO's do not come with a set of instructions of what is or isn't intended. Most of the time it is a generic manual and you have to work it out for yourself.
So if by bad programming you can do something, then how can you tell if it was intentionally programmed that way or is an exploit.?
....
Like I said it's that mysteriously grey area in game play.
/agree on the above, and I am no big fan of punishing the player for the developer's mistake.
Everyone seems to be on board with the "if you do not announce the exploit ASAP, we shall ban you for your treachery" line of thinking, and I just don't get that. If I find a mining node that lets me mine it 20x instead of once, I didn't write that code, I didn't put it in the game, I just discovered something neato. Okie doke. So if I do the action I do on every other mining node, I am now guilty of an MMO capital offense if I interact with the object the same way I always have but the object responds differently than normal, and also, I did not appraise my superior officers of the infraction in a timely manner?
Has a very Loyalty to Big Brother vibe to it, this whole "if you see the broken pathing and do not report immediately, we will find you and we will ban you, for the good the Party" thing.
Odd that so many people champion being treated as subjects instead of paid customers, but alright. :boggle:
Venjenz said:Boulda said:The issue I have, is that MMO's do not come with a set of instructions of what is or isn't intended. Most of the time it is a generic manual and you have to work it out for yourself.
So if by bad programming you can do something, then how can you tell if it was intentionally programmed that way or is an exploit.?
....
Like I said it's that mysteriously grey area in game play.
/agree on the above, and I am no big fan of punishing the player for the developer's mistake.
Everyone seems to be on board with the "if you do not announce the exploit ASAP, we shall ban you for your treachery" line of thinking, and I just don't get that. If I find a mining node that lets me mine it 20x instead of once, I didn't write that code, I didn't put it in the game, I just discovered something neato. Okie doke. So if I do the action I do on every other mining node, I am now guilty of an MMO capital offense if I interact with the object the same way I always have but the object responds differently than normal, and also, I did not appraise my superior officers of the infraction in a timely manner?
Has a very Loyalty to Big Brother vibe to it, this whole "if you see the broken pathing and do not report immediately, we will find you and we will ban you, for the good the Party" thing.
Odd that so many people champion being treated as subjects instead of paid customers, but alright. :boggle:
It's really not that hard to figure out what constitutes intended and unintended gameplay.
If every mining node goes down in one swing, except this one specific mining node over here that takes 20 swings, it's not a stretch to assume that it's probably a bug with that mining node. If you sit there and farm thousands of ore from the node (and subsequently destroy the economy) then yeah, you deserve to have your character stripped or for you to be banned. It doesn't matter if you didn't write the code. Errors in software are to be expected.
Taking advantage of something as opposed to reporting it should earn you some form of punishment. Period.
So much hyperbole in this thread it isn't even funny. It's the same reason people get convicted of fraud when they try to find a way to exploit the system. Are you saying that anarchy is preferable to some form of order?