Kilsin said:
I hope this makes more sense to everyone.
Kilsin,
I appreciate the clarification - I do understand it now, but it makes absolutely no sense. Although, it probably wouldn't be a huge monetary gain as there were approximately 1500-2000 subscribers prior to that Feburary Cutoff, and the likelihood of those 1500-2000 pledging more is probably fairly slim - there's no reason to lose any potential funding source. The only reason I could see this occuring is if the developers don't want to track the original pledge rewards - or don't know how to honor the pledge rewards plus receiving additional from upgraded packages.
I have a simple solution to that, although it may take some legwork (not sure if the old pledges would have to be entered manually versus the new pledges being entered automatically). Once you move to VBulletin, have the pledgers current rewards shown on their account home page- hopefully being able to be entered automatically but if not, entered manually. I would offer assistance with data entry if manpower was an issue.
Then, if that current pledger upgrading from say the Pathfinder Pledge with the $1 lifetime sub - they don't lose it, but gain any additional rewards such as the Invite to the Founder's guild. It makes zero sense to punish the player for the rewards that they have already earned. There's no reward that would be detrimental to VRI's financial success other than the $1 subscription which has already been earned. By "removing" an early supporter's ability to have that lifetime sub by "upgrading", it screams of a Comcast/Verizon/Time-Warner Bill that has hidden fine-print. And, by effectively removing some of the pledgers rewards at this time by pledging additionally - that's just 100% wrong. At this time, I would hope that anyone who has pledged additionally prior to your clarification Kilsin would have their pledges honored (like Niien it appears), because this pledge system has not been clear until your latest reply and many of the supporters have been here through all the drama..
Again, although I don't believe is meant to be shady or with ill-will - it is a poor financial move and very punishing to the longest supporters - those who have supported Pantheon when most felt there was no hope for its existence.
Like Wellspring though, this will be my last post on the topic as well because my feelings on the issue are evident and I'm not trying to intentionally stir drama and I wish your development team the best, but if this decision stands, it's extremely disappointing. With that said, I appreciate the honoring of the "original pledges" and it definitely will not deter me from playing a finished game, but, it obviously would prevent me from additionally pledging any further.
I'll stick with the tier I'm at. If I can't keep current rewards and add upgraded rewards as well, then it's not worth my money. I guess that's why I have already donated over $550.00 to Shroud of the Avatar. I originally started at the $150.00 tier. Each tier includes all of the items from previous tiers. Instead of removing or moving items around as they get nearer to release, they have increased the prices of each tier for late comers, rewarding early adopters with cheaper prices while allowing newcomers to still gain access to desirable benefits and virtual items.
Great discussion.
The real issue it seems is this... people who made a pledge 'back-in-the-day' want to give more to Pantheon's creation but not to it's continued success (having to sub normally instead of $1 or life). VR realized it was going to end up with a finished game and too few actual subscribers to continue with development post launch.
I can understand both sides of the discussion. VR is pulling the verizon stunt (i got caught in it as I was told there was no way to keep unlimited data if i didnt keep the same phone, period), but without any option at all to be grandfathered if upgrading. The contributors, who want to pay more now to help VR and to get more stuff, do not want to help VR later with a subscription once the game is launched because they are not getting anything extra for that money.
I don't mean to misrepresent either side, but that is how I see the problem.
The other problem I see coming up once VR regroups and makes changes to allow for 'upgrading' and not losing the lifetime sub perk, is people wondering why they don't have another lifetime sub option... since the 'deadline' for all of this is essentially 'dead'. :D
P.S. I also had trouble getting this site to accept my pledge payments (january) for the first time and I was told I should wait until the kinks were worked out. I'm not complaining, but in my case, the cut-off date was actually earlier than February because I was unable to make my pledge in January/February.
I personally do NOT have the lifetime sub perk ! Yet I do not wish to lose my map or the other perks by upgrading . I personally will most certainly be supporting pantheon rotf and paying monthly subs. although I do fully understand both sides . It still is a backwards way of doing things and I'm glad they are working on it . I have full confidence in the VR team
Shea said:I personally do NOT have the lifetime sub perk ! Yet I do not wish to lose my map or the other perks by upgrading . I personally will most certainly be supporting pantheon rotf and paying monthly subs. although I do fully understand both sides . It still is a backwards way of doing things and I'm glad they are working on it . I have full confidence in the VR team
Same here, I don't have nor was I seeking a cheaper subscription. I just wanted the upgraded perks and items while retaining those I started with. Most of these perks and items are virtual in nature and should not be a financial burden on the game by allowing them to be obtained in additive installments.
Vorthanion said:Same here, I don't have nor was I seeking a cheaper subscription. I just wanted the upgraded perks and items while retaining those I started with. Most of these perks and items are virtual in nature and should not be a financial burden on the game by allowing them to be obtained in additive installments.
Same as well, don't have or care about the lifetime cheaper sub. Just wanted 1 digital reward and 1 physical. The digital perks cost nothing to add to peoples accounts after they have already been created, but sure the physical ones do. Mainly I wanted the cloth map but that is now at the $500 tier cheapest.
I can't speak for how the original pledges were as I've only recently become a forum member. However, this is my understanding of how the pledge system is described to work and I think this is where people are having issues.
Please correct me if I'm wrong and hopefully that will help clear up some confusion!
If I buy the Pathfinder's pledge for $250 but later decide that I want to upgrade to the Advisors pledge, I have to pay an additional $300 for a total of $550. Not simply an additional $50. I think this is why people are saying there is no real incentive to upgrade. It punishes the players who upgraded early and if they're required to pay the total amount to upgrade their pledge, they're better off simply buying a second brand new account! That does seem a bit silly.
I think what a lot of people need to realize that yes - if you pledged back in the Kickstarter---->website days you got a lot more for less money. Is it fair? I believe so. Those that pledged that early on had more of a risk with their investment. At one point we were unsure a game was even being made! Now they have more people interested, and they do not (in my belief) need as many alpha testers, so the supply vs demand ratio has changed.
However....
In the past there have been many changes to the pledges and mistakes in people's accounts. For my example, VRI kept taking 15/month even when I asked them to stop - I had to put a stop in Paypal to end it with no responses from Wryshu (Tom) way back then). So VRI has extra money from me that I consider a donation ;) - they were going through huge staff changes back then. My confidence in VRI's abilty to handle pledges and their upgrades is not as strong as it could be.
Vorthanion said:In response to cram, this venture is in need of more money. I would think the pledge system would be a priority as it would greatly improve new pledges as well as increasing the number of upgrades from early donors. One thing I can say about Star Citizen is that their easy to use and understand crowdfunding page only helps in furthering their success.
I agree:
What needs to happen (and Kilsin you have said that they are working on it - but this really needs to be a priority at this point) is more transparency. People need a link to their account and to actually see what that account/pledge has given - especially in regards to the "honoring of old pledges." I feel this should have been done before rolling out the new pledges and asking for more money. I have kept all my records about my pledge because I am not completely confident in their record keeping. I am confident in their sincerity and making sure early adopters get their original items is a big part of that. I believe they are good people with good intentions - they just have a lot to handle.
Have a page dedicated to people's current contribution and possible paths to upgrade. Also if you are going to make another round of new pledges give them different names (or make it pathfinder Version 2) to avoid confusion and enable better record keeping.
If people have a link to their current situation and their possible paths to upgrade - I think you will see a lot less forum posts on this topic then. I also believe people's confidence, comfort level and money pledged will raise as a result.
Example:
- Name:
- Current amount donated:
- Pledge name:
- Pledge rewards:
- Payment plan:
- Possible upgrades (Click here! )
TLDR; People need a link to their account and to actually see what pledge they are at (or are working towards). They need to see what their rewards are.
Zandil said:I won't be putting any further money towards this game until I can check my account and current pledge amount and rewards. At this point I don't know what the difference is between my records and what VR's account of my records are.
I understand your reservation, thus my above post. I hope my post did not scare you, that was not my intent, my intent was to provide feedback to VRI about how people feel about the pledge system and suggestions for improvement. If you felt that way before my post then *whew* we are right on track :)
If you contact support they will talk to you about it. VRI is really good at communication on an individual level now. That should put you at ease. However if everyone has to do that it is burdensome to their system and if they just provide a way for everyone to view these pledges it would be easier on everyone.
Furor said:I can't speak for how the original pledges were as I've only recently become a forum member. However, this is my understanding of how the pledge system is described to work and I think this is where people are having issues.
Please correct me if I'm wrong and hopefully that will help clear up some confusion!
If I buy the Pathfinder's pledge for $250 but later decide that I want to upgrade to the Advisors pledge, I have to pay an additional $300 for a total of $550. Not simply an additional $50. I think this is why people are saying there is no real incentive to upgrade. It punishes the players who upgraded early and if they're required to pay the total amount to upgrade their pledge, they're better off simply buying a second brand new account! That does seem a bit silly.
@Furor,
I realized I said I'd stay out of future discussion, but I wanted to clarify any confusion I may have caused. Your example above is not correct. The discussion in this thread really has no relevance to the new subscribers. If you're a new pledger today, you'll get the rewards for which you pledged. Example: If you purchased the Pathfinder's pledge at $250, and pledged 50 additional dollars, you would reach the Advisor's pledge at $300. Most upgraded tiers are just the previous tier +1 or 2 more rewards. So, the $50 dollar upgrade would get you an invite to the Founder's guild (Advisor's pledge) and all the Pathfinder pledge rewards.
Where the "penalty" happens is for early backers who had rewards that either are no longer being offered, or are being offered at a much higher tier now. So, if we upgraded, we would either potentially lose rewards that no longer are offered or have to donate more to re-obtain rewards we already earned.
I'll use myself as an example. I transferred my Pathfinder Kickstarter pledge here and I'd lose Title: Pantheon Founder, $1 Lifetime Sub, and Name an Item if I upgraded, or, we would be donating more money but potentially losing pledge rewards that have currently moved to a higher tier. Both of these items were offered under the Kickstarter $250 Pathfinder pledge: Postcard & Celestial Cloth Map. And, if I wanted to "upgrade" my pledge, I would need to donate $750 "more" dollars to reach the $1000 tier to re-obtain the Postcard and $250 to re-obtain the Cloth Map.
I get why the changes were made, and the intentions were to reward early backers by offering rewards cheaper than they ultimately are now, or by allowing the early backers to keep their rewards that are no longer in existence - it's just the "upgrade" portion for early backers that I hope is being reviewed. And, Zarriya, I agree that the transparency option and a listing of rewards on your profile is a good solution. And sorry if I caused confusion Furor - it wasn't my intent.
BloodbeardBattlecaster said:Great discussion.
The contributors, who want to pay more now to help VR and to get more stuff, do not want to help VR later with a subscription once the game is launched because they are not getting anything extra for that money.
I don't mean to misrepresent either side, but that is how I see the problem.
Bloodbeard,
You're pretty spot on with most of your response, but, it's not that I wouldn't want to support VRI monetarily after release (I'd buy plenty of expansions if available at the very least), but, I'd rather have the flexibility to donate/purchase when/where I can versus having a monthly payment. I've already obtained the rewards I wanted - Cloth Map/Sub, so now it would truly be purely for donations if I gave more, and, if I reached a higher tier than I'd view it as a bonus. And, I'm sure I'd have the money for a regular subscription, and its potentially selfish, but the $1 subscription was one of the major reasons I was able to balance risk/reward of pledging back in January/February 2014 when many thought Pantheon was vaporware. I did believe in Brad then (still do), but I wouldn't want to lose that sub now by upgrading. There's plenty of other ways I can offer support other than monetarily if it doesn't change, and I'll continue to provide support as a community member here and elsewhere. And... more than likely, I'll end up with a second account in my family for a regular sub anyway :)
Zandil said:I won't be putting any further money towards this game until I can check my account and current pledge amount and rewards. At this point I don't know what the difference is between my records and what VR's account of my records are.
There is no difference mate, we have a copy of every transaction that goes through our system, past and present (from the creation of this site until the present), the problem lies with linking it to the Social Engine forums, which we could never get working correctly and had to manually update it in the majority of cases, which was extremely time-consuming for two people to manage (BlueEyedGator and myself).
We hope to have this information linked and visible to you all again when we get setup on the new vBulletin forums, but it may include writing our own code to make this happen automatically.
If anyone has any serious concerns, you are more than welcome to lodge a support ticket, where we can access your account and tell you the information that you want to know, we just can't display it on the forums at this time as the module that displayed it broke when we made the recent changes and with our move to vBulletin so close, it is just not worth the time and effort to fix a semi-broken system when it will be ditched soon anyway.
We are sorry for the inconvenience.
I also want to state again that we are looking into this current pledge system to see if we can make it easier for everyone to use and understand.
Raidan said:BloodbeardBattlecaster said:Great discussion.
The contributors, who want to pay more now to help VR and to get more stuff, do not want to help VR later with a subscription once the game is launched because they are not getting anything extra for that money.
I don't mean to misrepresent either side, but that is how I see the problem.
Bloodbeard,
You're pretty spot on with most of your response, but, it's not that I wouldn't want to support VRI monetarily after release (I'd buy plenty of expansions if available at the very least), but, I'd rather have the flexibility to donate/purchase when/where I can versus having a monthly payment. I've already obtained the rewards I wanted - Cloth Map/Sub, so now it would truly be purely for donations if I gave more, and, if I reached a higher tier than I'd view it as a bonus. And, I'm sure I'd have the money for a regular subscription, and its potentially selfish, but the $1 subscription was one of the major reasons I was able to balance risk/reward of pledging back in January/February 2014 when many thought Pantheon was vaporware. I did believe in Brad then (still do), but I wouldn't want to lose that sub now by upgrading. There's plenty of other ways I can offer support other than monetarily if it doesn't change, and I'll continue to provide support as a community member here and elsewhere. And... more than likely, I'll end up with a second account in my family for a regular sub anyway :)
I want to put some perspective into this because a lot of people were not there at the begining, so Blood Beard I am going to give you a bit of insight back when Raidan and other early contributers made their pledges and why they feel they should be able to upgrade and retain their lifetime sub:
On February 22, 2014 the kickstarter failed, and there was a huge amount of rumors circulating (I dont want to dredge them back up). There was a group of individuals who would loudly bash the team every chance they got. Most people did not think a game was going to be made yet they donated several hundreds of dollars (the life sub option was minimium 250.00 back then) to a start up website with a very real risk that if the game was not made they would lose that money. There was no safety net of Kickstarter - where you get your money back if the project is not funded. This was not a normal crowdfunding project, but those of us who did donate back then believe in Brad and want this game so very much. Later that year we watched as more rumors circulated and team members left. There was even a point in development when development was halted. We could have taken the more selfish wait and see approach - but we knew the project needed the money urgently. We wanted to help. We are now rewarded by seeing VRI's growth. Those early risk takers are a big part of the reason why we are looking forward to this game happening now :)
So those who " do not want to help VR later with a subscription" really played their role already - they took a huge risk. They deserve to keep that lifetime sub, and we should thank them because with out their support, we would not be typing here in this forum today :)
Kilsin said:Zandil said:I won't be putting any further money towards this game until I can check my account and current pledge amount and rewards. At this point I don't know what the difference is between my records and what VR's account of my records are.
There is no difference mate, we have a copy of every transaction that goes through our system, past and present (from the creation of this site until the present), the problem lies with linking it to the Social Engine forums, which we could never get working correctly and had to manually update it in the majority of cases, which was extremely time-consuming for two people to manage (BlueEyedGator and myself).
We hope to have this information linked and visible to you all again when we get setup on the new vBulletin forums, but it may include writing our own code to make this happen automatically.
If anyone has any serious concerns, you are more than welcome to lodge a support ticket, where we can access your account and tell you the information that you want to know, we just can't display it on the forums at this time as the module that displayed it broke when we made the recent changes and with our move to vBulletin so close, it is just not worth the time and effort to fix a semi-broken system when it will be ditched soon anyway.
We are sorry for the inconvenience.
I also want to state again that we are looking into this current pledge system to see if we can make it easier for everyone to use and understand.
Thanks Kilsin, once the new system is in place and account details are up and running I will look at further pledes, Just for my piece of mind I'll wait till I see my account, and I really agree with most people here that the losing of old pledge benifits when upgrading needs to be re-assesd and glad you guys are looking into it.
Zarriya said:
This was not a normal crowdfunding project, but those of us who did donate back then believe in Brad and want this game so very much. Later that year we watched as more rumors circulated and team members left. There was even a point in development when development was halted. We could have taken the more selfish wait and see approach - but we knew the project needed the money urgently. We wanted to help. We are now rewarded by seeing VRI's growth. Those early risk takers are a big part of the reason why we are looking forward to this game happening now :)
So those who " do not want to help VR later with a subscription" really played their role already - they took a huge risk. They deserve to keep that lifetime sub, and we should thank them because with out their support, we would not be typing here in this forum today :)
This was very eloquently put. Spoke to my position. I'm currently in a wait and see approach for the new forums. I generally donate after something is released. A video. An update. A new forum this time around perhaps. I will stockpile some money in the interim.
Also, Kilsin, you have a rough job managing the fears of all these fine people. Keep up the good work.
OK well I have to say these guys are on top of things.. I am really happy that they listen and interact with us. So lets see what they do and then we could throw in our feedback. In the end we all need to work together so the end results is a win for everyone.. Now Kilsin Cummings said his offer still stands.. *wink* *wink* Epic reach around too as a freebie LOL....
NuggieOndahead said:Zarriya said:This was very eloquently put. Spoke to my position. I'm currently in a wait and see approach for the new forums. I generally donate after something is released. A video. An update. A new forum this time around perhaps. I will stockpile some money in the interim....some stuff...
Also, Kilsin, you have a rough job managing the fears of all these fine people. Keep up the good work.
Thank you :). And yes he does!
Azraell said:OK well I have to say these guys are on top of things.. I am really happy that they listen and interact with us. So lets see what they do and then we could throw in our feedback. In the end we all need to work together so the end results is a win for everyone.. Now Kilsin Cummings said his offer still stands.. *wink* *wink* Epic reach around too as a freebie LOL....
Cummings is a filthy whore that will give you a nasty rash.....just sayin
I miss him so ;)
Raidan said:BloodbeardBattlecaster said:Great discussion.
The contributors, who want to pay more now to help VR and to get more stuff, do not want to help VR later with a subscription once the game is launched because they are not getting anything extra for that money.
I don't mean to misrepresent either side, but that is how I see the problem.
Bloodbeard,
You're pretty spot on with most of your response, but, it's not that I wouldn't want to support VRI monetarily after release (I'd buy plenty of expansions if available at the very least), but, I'd rather have the flexibility to donate/purchase when/where I can versus having a monthly payment. I've already obtained the rewards I wanted - Cloth Map/Sub, so now it would truly be purely for donations if I gave more, and, if I reached a higher tier than I'd view it as a bonus. And, I'm sure I'd have the money for a regular subscription, and its potentially selfish, but the $1 subscription was one of the major reasons I was able to balance risk/reward of pledging back in January/February 2014 when many thought Pantheon was vaporware. I did believe in Brad then (still do), but I wouldn't want to lose that sub now by upgrading. There's plenty of other ways I can offer support other than monetarily if it doesn't change, and I'll continue to provide support as a community member here and elsewhere. And... more than likely, I'll end up with a second account in my family for a regular sub anyway :)
I was being a bit too direct and simplistic in my post and I do not believe you are being selfish. :) I do truly understand not wanting to lose anything you've already earned by donations. I can also see VRI offering 'new' and 'different' perks for newer subscribers, who will not get a lifetime sub type of perk.
Also, I wasn't thinking in terms of risk vs reward. When adding that idea to the equation, I can sympathize more with the donator side.
edited for spelling
Zarriya said:Raidan said:BloodbeardBattlecaster said:Great discussion.
The contributors, who want to pay more now to help VR and to get more stuff, do not want to help VR later with a subscription once the game is launched because they are not getting anything extra for that money.
I don't mean to misrepresent either side, but that is how I see the problem.
Bloodbeard,
You're pretty spot on with most of your response, but, it's not that I wouldn't want to support VRI monetarily after release (I'd buy plenty of expansions if available at the very least), but, I'd rather have the flexibility to donate/purchase when/where I can versus having a monthly payment. I've already obtained the rewards I wanted - Cloth Map/Sub, so now it would truly be purely for donations if I gave more, and, if I reached a higher tier than I'd view it as a bonus. And, I'm sure I'd have the money for a regular subscription, and its potentially selfish, but the $1 subscription was one of the major reasons I was able to balance risk/reward of pledging back in January/February 2014 when many thought Pantheon was vaporware. I did believe in Brad then (still do), but I wouldn't want to lose that sub now by upgrading. There's plenty of other ways I can offer support other than monetarily if it doesn't change, and I'll continue to provide support as a community member here and elsewhere. And... more than likely, I'll end up with a second account in my family for a regular sub anyway :)
I want to put some perspective into this because a lot of people were not there at the begining, so Blood Beard I am going to give you a bit of insight back when Raidan and other early contributers made their pledges and why they feel they should be able to upgrade and retain their lifetime sub:
On February 22, 2014 the kickstarter failed, and there was a huge amount of rumors circulating (I dont want to dredge them back up). There was a group of individuals who would loudly bash the team every chance they got. Most people did not think a game was going to be made yet they donated several hundreds of dollars (the life sub option was minimium 250.00 back then) to a start up website with a very real risk that if the game was not made they would lose that money. There was no safety net of Kickstarter - where you get your money back if the project is not funded. This was not a normal crowdfunding project, but those of us who did donate back then believe in Brad and want this game so very much. Later that year we watched as more rumors circulated and team members left. There was even a point in development when development was halted. We could have taken the more selfish wait and see approach - but we knew the project needed the money urgently. We wanted to help. We are now rewarded by seeing VRI's growth. Those early risk takers are a big part of the reason why we are looking forward to this game happening now :)
So those who " do not want to help VR later with a subscription" really played their role already - they took a huge risk. They deserve to keep that lifetime sub, and we should thank them because with out their support, we would not be typing here in this forum today :)
I was following the game back then and heard about it all. I really don't think my original post was taking anything away from anyone. As I posted to Raidan, I may have been too direct and simplistic, but I was commenting on the fact that VR decided it would not allow for 'tier movement' without making the full purchase of the new tier (not necessarily a mistake imo) and losing the perks of the original tier (this is a mistake imo), and the fact those who had already donated were displeased with that decision and that some did not believe VR's position was clearly stated. A big problem exists when there is no way to contribute more money, even if one does not wish to get 'upgrade tiers'.
Is the current setup a bad model for fundraising from current contributors? Yes.
Do I think the contributors are being selfish? No.
Do I think it's 'just business'? Yes.
It might have been taken better if I had posted "The contributors, who want to pay more now to help VR and to get more stuff, may not wish to contribute further once the game is launched."
I don't know. I'm just not the greatest diplomat. :D
BloodbeardBattlecaster said: ..snip..
It might have been taken better if I had posted "The contributors, who want to pay more now to help VR and to get more stuff, may not wish to contribute further once the game is launched."
I don't know. I'm just not the greatest diplomat. :D
Yea I have to agree with you there - the way the pledges are set up they do not have to contribute unless they want to donate or pay for an expansion. Honestly I may even fall into that category but then again I will have to see. I have spent over 400 so its not like I got it cheap :D You explained that very well thank you :)
BloodbeardBattlecaster said:I was being a bit too direct and simplistic in my post and I do not believe you are being selfish. :) I do truly understand not wanting to lose anything you've already earned by donations. I can also see VRI offering 'new' and 'different' perks for newer subscribers, who will not get a lifetime sub type of perk.
Also, I wasn't thinking in terms of risk vs reward. When adding that idea to the equation, I can sympathize more with the donator side.
Bloodbeard - no worries :). I understood what you meant, and knew you'd been here through it all. I just wanted to clarify for others who may not have been - and Zarriya did that much more eloquently than I.