I tried searching but I couldn't find any threads. Should I have missed a thread about this please kindly kick me in its direction ;)
Anyway, I was wondering if there is any knowledge about pulling mechanics out in the open yet or pulling will actually be in game in some form.
Loved to pull in EQ so would greatly welcome something similar in Pantheon. I do know however that the pulling mechanic in EQ actually evolved around a broken mechanic that as then left in due to popular demand. So maybe you guys can break it in Pantheon too so we have something similar? :p
In all seriousness though, any info on that topic?
not sure how it IS, havent played for a long time. But back in the day you had several ways.
Good old proximity or aggro pull always worked if you didnt pull too many. Or throwing knifes or shissar thorns. There were some rare raid drops with huge range for monks for example.
The tricky part came when you had a bunch of mobs that would all aggro if one was pulled. Here you had to have knowledge or look at the pathing and time your FD in order to split them.This was where the broken mechanic came in. Lets sy you pulled 3 mobs, FDd and waited. 2 mobs would turn back while one stayed for example. You stand an the mob that didnt leave rushed at you again while the other two ran back to their spawn point before running back to you. In that time you could pull the single mob to your raid or group and FD again before the other two got too close.
You had to know when to FD or when to tag team or when to drop the pull all together and restart. A lot of knowledge in game mechanics was needed as well as skill and timing to make really good puller. Never considered myself to be really good but met (AB server) who were absolute masters and could split pretty much any camp. Was a pleasure watching those monks at work :)
Thank you both very much for explaining. Its really interesting how much more to pulling in EQ is compared to EQ2. Especially the part that mobs would come back to a person who feigned death and stood up again. I am not certain if that was the mentioned broken mechanik or that a mob would stay with your group while other mob would react to a successful feign death. Probably, right?
I did a lot of pulling on my ranger if there was no monk in the group, was good at it but wouldn't try to say I was a master or anything. Part of mob's chaining was dependant on how far you were from them, so even though there may be 3 mobs in a group if you are far enough away when pulling then you will only get the 1 you actually hit. You could also use the geography to your advantage as well as a few different spells that certain classes had.
It really is a lost art form though that I would like to see make a return.
The fact that pulling is back in the game is what is going to make me go back to a monk over a raid healer. I loved pulling and, if i must say so myself, was pretty decent at it. I loved how you had to know what each mob type would do, how far away do they see, are they social, when is that roamer spawn going to come through, when is that spawn spot going to respawn etc.
If this game does pulling right like EQ then it will be great.
Gadgets said:
A good puller in EQ would also keep a timer or have a good concept on when respawns would occur. As some camps had to be 'broken' into. It was a good time :D
Yup early on I had an egg timer on my desk, as i got to know zones I would not need them anymore, really was a great time learning new content and a new play style back then. Today it is harder becuase most of the things a dev can put into a game we have already seen. Makes it not as fun as 1999 but I still can't wait to get back to a game that has real pulling in it.
I will try to find an old post that was pretty much 'pulling 101'. If not I will type up as much as I can about it. There are a good dozen or two ways to pull. Snap pull, proximity/body pull, yoyo pulling, fd pulling, cancel pulling, leash pull, ping pong pull, etc. But again, let me see if I can find the old post. I doubt my old guild's website is still up so it might possibly be laying somewhere out there on the edge of the internet.
Khartack said:
The tricky part came when you had a bunch of mobs that would all aggro if one was pulled. Here you had to have knowledge or look at the pathing and time your FD in order to split them.This was where the broken mechanic came in. Lets sy you pulled 3 mobs, FDd and waited. 2 mobs would turn back while one stayed for example. You stand an the mob that didnt leave rushed at you again while the other two ran back to their spawn point before running back to you. In that time you could pull the single mob to your raid or group and FD again before the other two got too close.
I'm not sure if that was actually broken. If I'm correct what was happening was this; first, if you pull a group of mobs, say the 3 in your example, and you FD the mobs will return to their spawn point. The one that stayed in your example would be the one you 'tagged' or the one that you directly hit. When you FD that mob stays and 'considers' you while the rest (the ones that aggro'd along because the mobs are 'social') head back to their spawn point. The trick here is there is a specific moment where the mobs returning won't reaggro because they are resetting in their spawn point so you stand up right as they are returning and the mob left considering you will reaggro whom you can then pull to your group with little risk and much reward.
Duffy said:
For one who is not familiar with EQ pulling (I know only EQ2 style body pulls to prevent social mobs calling for help): how is/was pulling in EQ done? Can someone explain to me please
Pulling: The best and worst part of EQ.
So there were essentially 5 types of pulling in EQ.
Monk Pull: The most common and most effective being the Monk Feign Death pull. This was the best and maybe the only technique for pulling trash quickly in a raid. Monks would work in groups of 2's or 3's, the first monk would run forward and pull some mobs, it did not matter how many. As he approached the raid with his train in tow he would feign death. As the mobs started to move back to their spawns the second monk would pick up a few for the raid to fight. If he got to many he could also just feign death making this a very safe method of pulling.
Ranger Pull: Ranger pulls were fairly common as well... though i am not sure why. A rangers best tools were his long snare and the fact that he did 0 dps. So when a ranger was pulling he would snare mobs and then run around in circles while the group took the mobs off him one by one and killed them. This led to rangers dying frequently and the induction of the term Ranger Gate!
Paci Pull: Though many mobs had an immunity to Pacify, if you were running in an area where it was usable, this was your best friend. A cleric or paladin on undead, a druid or ranger on beasts, and a enchanter on everything else would give you a single pull with almost no mana cost or cooldown time.
The Man Pull: When your tank has a bow and wants to flex it so he just pulls and everything comes. (only effective if group has good CC)
The Bard Swarm: Bards pulling the whole zone and stacking them up and then running in circles and killing 200 mobs at once to gain levels insanely fast. This was totally broken though.
I think that covers most of the EQ pulling. Though I think that it is important to remember that in EQ you would spend your time at a camp for many many hours and the puller would bring the mobs to you. This is opposed to your current MMO which encourages you to run around all the time.
TL;DR
Pulling really is an amazing mechanic with so many styles. It would be a shame not to see it in Pantheon.
Chaj must not have played EQ past PoP when Bards started getting mana and could use Fading Memory without needing to worry about going OOM. As a Main monk Puller, I can tell you there were times when Bards could pull faster and safer then us (larger outdoor area's come to mind) and some areas where monks were better (halls, corners, tight clusters)
Nice writup Chaj. Shadowknight fd pulls were in the realm of monks, especially later in aa's and levels where we had 2 fd's to use on seperate timers if i recall. But yeah man. I have high hopes for needed skills to split camps etc.
Every MMO has pulling - it's just that today's MMO's don't require any skill. I think the real question is whether or not pulling will be a vital group role - and whether or not it will require game knowledge like EQ did... Because to be honest, any idiot could pull in EQ - but idiots often got their groups killed.
Good pullers knew about agro ranges, spawn cycle times, which mobs might require line of sight pulling, which mobs really needed to be pulled first, which ones absolutely needed to be left for last, etc...
If Pantheon is a game that brings the ART of pulling back to life - that will ultimately make my class decision for me. My absolute, 100 billion percent favorite activity in EQ groups - was pulling for my group.
Ranger Pull: Ranger pulls were fairly common as well... though i am not sure why. A rangers best tools were his long snare and the fact that he did 0 dps. So when a ranger was pulling he would snare mobs and then run around in circles while the group took the mobs off him one by one and killed them. This led to rangers dying frequently and the induction of the term Ranger Gate!
Rangers were actually AWESOME at pulling OUTDOORS... If you knew how to use your abilities:
1) Harmony - Only worked oudoors (which is why we could only pull outdoors) - was an extremly potent and reliable agro reducer. Rarely failed and was fast casting... harmony everything and pull away.
2) Spirit of Wolf - Get to and from what you were pulling fast!
3) Camo - Get to what you were pulling without being seen... AND... get back to your group the same way! (assumes there was a path between your mob's spawn spot and your group where you could pull out of agro range of see invis mobs)
4) Jolt - A smart ranger pulled with our agro reducing line. It got you on the mob's agro list - but as a NEGATIVE value. Get back to your tank after pulling with Jolt, and your tank gets the mob off of you by breathing on it too hard.... less than bright rangers pulled with their bow and kept shooting the mob on the way back.
5) A willingness to die. A good ranger - if they got too many mobs - would sacrifice themselves instead of wiping their group. This required an understanding of agro ranges. Get a train? Pull that train just outside of range where it would agro anyone in your group... stop, and die. Get your rez and restart.
6) The ability to park mobs. Get your pull timing a little off - and get back to your group a tad too soon? No problem... hit it with your ultra fast cast snare, and then root it...
7) The ability to kite mobs. Have a mob you can't keep rooted - no problem, kite it until your group is ready for it.
We really had an awesome kit for outdoors overall...
Indeed, nice writeup Chaj, thanks for that!
As for the broken part, it never really got officially stated, bit imo it was the fact that some mobs actually ran back to their spawn point and sometimes warped back or to the puller.
In any case, this opened up so many styles of pulling that it was actually a full class of its own. Like many above have mentioned, it not only included being aware of your surroundings (random wanderes, repop times etc) but also knowing what your group could handle, when to go off to get the next mob, how to split certain canps etc. etc.
As Chaj said, it would a shame to not see that in Pantheon :)
Here is one of the most comprehensive guides to pulling. Even though we do not know specifics about Pantheon's pulling yet, this guide has worked for both EQ and VG so I have no reason to doubt it won't be useful in Pantheon. It's extensive and a bit of a write-up but all great info.
Tagging - Hitting a mob with a spell or melee/range attack to aggro it.
Aggro Radius - The distance around a mob that it will pass aggro to other mobs. Also the distance around a mob before it will notice you and become hostile. This radius is NOT static. This will be explained further.
Line of Sight or LOS - when a mob can directly see you in it's radius of vision.
Hate List - A list the mob maintains of everyone it wants to kill at the moment. This can be very long, including dozens of characters. This list can be passed from mob to mob.
Intermediate PullingBasic Chain pulling or Tagging
This simple technique involves pulling a group of mobs, FDing and having another player tag the remaining mobs. This is extremely useful when you have wandering mobs that will reaggro on standing or when their bind points are far away. Though any class can do this, it's best done with a second monk or SK as they can FD should they accidentally aggro too many mobs. To minimize the chance of FD failure, have the second monk FD at the designated tagging spot. Then, pull the mobs, FD, and when ready to tag, the second monk or SK simply stands up and tags the second mob, waits for a moment to check that they don't aggro extras, then pulls to group. The monk is then free to check aggro through standing up and seeing if remaining mobs return, FDing again as needed to clear remaining aggro, then return to the fight.
You can tag with spells, however some spells have much larger aggro radius than others, so you are best to use low level stuns or nukes versus high level stuns or nukes for tagging a mob.
Pulling Casters
Casters have a terrible habit of standing in one spot and casting at you over and over instead of coming to the party. This can be circumvented. Once a mob casts a spell it is not line of sight, IE, if you turn a corner the spell will still hit you. However, for most mobs the actually Begin casting a spell, you must generally be line of sight. So running around a corner or around an alcove will bring the mob running directly to a spot that's LOS with you.
Reverse Pulling
In some areas there is not sufficent room to FD and seperate a mob easily. One solution is instead of waiting for mobs to return to bind point, is to pull mobs PAST a group and have them tag a straggler. Then FD and let the other mobs return to bind point. This can be used also to tag the tail end of trains. This only works if you can fight Outside of the aggro range of the returning mob path.
Mob Kissing or Hugging, aka as Baby Sitting
In many zones pathing is horrendous. Aggro'd mobs will take LONG detours through the zone instead of the short distance between you and the party. However, if you remain in melee range with the mob while backing away it will follow you step for step. This will allow you to circumvent bad pathing. Note, you will take a beating if you need to pull like this, so backing away from a mob is generally better than turning your back to them... at least you can dodge and riposte this way.
Advanced ConceptsLevel Based Aggro
Aggro radius is not finite. It decreases in relation to the difference in level between the mob and yourself. This is why greens will often not aggro until you stand right on top of them. It's also why a level 60 monk can pull a mob from in between 2 blues and aggro only one, while a level 52 monk will aggro all 3 every time. This is why a level 60 of any class is sometimes a better puller than a level 52 monk.
Aggro Delay
When you first enter a mobs aggro range, there is a random delay before a mob aggros you. This is supposed to represent the mob debating whether to eat you or not. During this time you are still not aggro, which is why sometimes you can run through a mob with SoW without aggroing, but always aggro it whenever you run through it at normal speed.
Bind Point Aggro Delay
When a mob resets to it's bind point, IE wanders back and clears aggro, there is a momentary delay (less than 1 second) when it cannot aggro someone within it's aggro radius. This will be used to advantage in some techniques.
Aggro Passing Delay
This is a variant of aggro delay. When an aggro mob passes another non-aggro mob, it will pass the Hate list. When a mob wishes to pass the hate list, the second mob also experiences an aggro delay of up to 1 or 2 seconds before it actually aggros.
Lazy Aggro
In Kunark and Velious, if you are beyond a certain distance from a mob, it will lose interest and no longer pursue you, though will still maintain you on the hate list with an increased aggro radius.
Advanced Pulling TechniquesSit Aggro Pulling
Some of you have probably noticed that when you sit or heavily wounded mobs will aggro you at far greater distances than when you're healthy or standing. This is a variant of Level based aggro. When you are critically injured or sitting, the game actually considers you to be Level 1 instead of your current level, thus your aggro range increases dramatically. This can be used to your advantage. You can be outside of normal aggro range, then sit and stand immediately upon aggro, reducing your aggro range to original size. If you are lucky, you will aggro the nearest mob, but will be standing Outside the lazy of the other mobs. The minimum it will do is give you more time to FD and exercise additional pulling techniques.
Out of Sight Tagging or Obstacle Tagging
We know that a mob cannot generally cast spells or aggro unless it can see you, otherwise mobs would aggro you from other side of walls. A mob's aggro is LOS, so if it can't see you, it won't aggro. Use this with chain tagging or on short bind point pulls. Aggro a mob, duck some distance around a corner and FD. Then have someone tag the mob, or if the distance to bind point is short, just tag the mob yourself. If you do it right, you won't aggro the other mobs, even if they're only a short distance away. Note that some zones are bugged, and mobs will aggro you through walls... know which ones this will work in.
Split Pathing and Obstacle Splitting
Any observant monk realizes that mobs have return paths that they follow when they return to bind point. However, what many monks don't realize is that there are Multiple return paths depending on Where a mob is when it loses aggro. If you can get one mob on one side of certain points in the zone and another on the other side, they will take different paths back to the bind point. Then, just chain tag or tag as usual as they will be far away from eachother. This can also be used with obstacles such as rocks, fountains, staircases which act to block a mobs LOS, thus allowing you to pull one out of sight of the other.
Persistent Aggro or Auto Pulling
We know that roamers often don't forget you. This can be a good thing. On raids or groups when you want 4 to 5 at a time, you can aggro a bunch of mobs, and then chain tag 4 or 5. Then, FD and watch the wanderers leave. After the group finishes those, stand up again and wait to see what other mobs have been aggrod and split off a bunch more. Repeat as needed until either all aggro mobs are dead or your group/raid needs a rest. This allows you to pull without going deep into the zone on every pull.
Caster Delay
When you pull mobs with casters, often one will hang back and being casting a spell. Sometimes you Want this to happen. Continue backing away from the caster, taking the melees along with you who will continue to beat on you. When the spell hits, FD. Then, you can either chain tag the caster (a variant of reverse pulling) or you can chain pull the melees that came with you safely who are now out of the aggro range of the caster. You can also wait for the near mobs to seperate should you need to whittle numbers down more. Great for breaking 2 and 3 spawns.
Yoyo Pulling
When you FD, some mobs will return sooner than others. If you stand some or all will reaggro. If you FD and then stand repeatedly, you may be able to seperate the mobs should some mem wipe, or they decide to return staggered. Combine yoyo pulling with obstacle splits, split pathing or caster delay to further break them up.
Bind Point Splitting
At the exact moment that a mob returns to bind point and is resetting it's aggro, it is unavailable for recieving a hate list. If you have a mob that is just getting to it's bind point and another still wandering back, you can stand up from FD at the exact right moment, and the wandering mob will reaggro but the one at bind point may not aggro. If not successful immediately, you may use this to increase the distance between the two mobs enough to use lazy aggro and aggro radius to tag or chain tag one.
Warp Splitting.
When a mob has a tough time getting to you, it may warp right on top of you. This will not happen all at the same time, one may get stuck a few seconds before the others. If you FD at the exact moment it warps to you, you will have one mob near you, and the rest far away out of aggro range. You can then chain tag the single or couple safely.
Reverse Warp Splitting.
When a mob gets stuck returning to it's bind point, it will warp back to bind point. This may not happen at the same time. If you time it right, you can tag the one or two mobs at the exact moment that the others have warped back to bind point without aggroing the others.
Level Splitting
Mobs often have different levels, thus different aggro ranges relative to you. Pulling a low level mob next to a higher level mob may aggro both every time, but pulling the higher level mob may not aggro the lower level mob as it's aggro range is smaller. It is helpful to know the level of the mobs in question and their relative ranges should you wish to pull this way. Have higher mid and lower level players con the mob to get an accurate gauge.
Ping pong splitting
If you have two monks, you can split multiple mobs that will not seperate. Each monk aggros a different mob, then pulls them out of aggro range of eachother. Then, a third person tags while both monks FD. The third person only aggros one as his hate list entry never gets passed.
Snare COH pulling
Should you have a mage with CoH (level 55 spell), you can have the monk pull a group and a ranger or druid act as snare. The monk pulls the group, the snarer snares one then is CoHd back to group clearing aggro. The mobs continues to pursue the monk and then FDs. When the mobs return, the snared mob slowly seperates from the group and can now be tagged safely. Can also be used with reverse pulling. Should a CoH not be available, you can have the snarer zone out or run outside of lazy aggro range.
Root COH pulling
Same as above, but instead of snaring one mob, you root one. This can also be used to seperate boss mobs from groups of regular mobs.
Center Pulling
When three mobs are in a line with eachother, they may be in aggro range with eachother, but the ones on each end may not be in aggro range of eachother. If you can pull out the center mob successfully, you may be able to pull out the mobs on each end safely.
The Sacrifice Pull (addition by Young)
The sacrifice pull is quite simply taking a death on a chain pull to lose aggro on several adds. I have used this a number of time to get mobs like the Statue or Ikiatar solo. (This is given only as an example and there are other ways to do these pulls.) Have Main puller tag Ikiatar and his Guards and Wyverns will follow. Puller will FD at the NToV door, first chain puller then aggro's Iki and the guards will aggro as well, he pulls these to the Hub area and FD's. He lets them walk thru North door. Chainer re-stands (prob already low on health even with Voiddance) Ikiatar runs faster than his guards and will warp onto the chainer. Chainer dies and aggro of the other mobs is dropped off. Iki can now be pulled solo by a third chainer. This is how the sacrifice pull works.
All of this knowledge was accrued through practice, experience, study, and observation both of mobs and other monks. It is the accumulation of 2 years as a puller. You may know some of these, hopefully some or all of these will be new to you.
This is not the end. Each technique is powerfull in itself. But when you combine them, synthesize them and exercise them in concert with eachother, you will find that you will have a very extensive set of pulling tools at your disposal.
Remember, pulling is all about one goal... to bring mobs without wiping out your group or raid. The complete wipeout of a group or raid is the Greatest failure of any puller. It is better to die than wipe out your group or raid. Expect to die. Expect to die alot while learning. But with time, practice and experience, miracles are possible."
I love pulling and can't wait to get my group rolling in Pantheon.
credit to Laotzu Qigong for the write-up.
From a long time EQ1 enchanter puller, there are several enchanter pull techniques as well. When AA made runes no longer require components, the enchanter toolkit made enchanters the best pullers by a wide margin. And back before you could command your animation, it was the only way to get the floaty sword engaged and add the DPS. I was enchanter pulling in Old Seb when Kunark was like 3 months old. Not even necros split camps as well. Mezz, slow and charm on one cast bar = sick pulling abilities.
Every camp was different, but each and every one of them set up for enchanters to pull the best.
EQ had almost no agro resets and invented the /shout TRAIN macro. Then EQ2 and almost every other MMO implemented leashes, when a mob got x distance from its agro point it would turn around and regen back to its spawn point. In EQ2, the mob would go grey (offer no xp or loot) until it fully regened and reset, then go back to its normal color.
I would like to see something new, like a patience bar. If you throw a rock to pull the mob, the patience bar will drop a little bit and it will chase you for a short period of time until the bar gradually refills then stops and gives up. If you keep throwing rocks at it, it keeps knocking a bit of patience off the bar and it keeps chasing until the bar refills. if you cast a giant nuke at something a huge chunk of patience gets docked and the mob is PISSED and chases you for a much longer time than a tiny rock throw.
Can I coin this Dynamic Leashing? Or is this implemented in another game already?