Yes. The world must have enough content, as everyone would agree, I think. My point is only this - I don't think there needs to be a reason to climb a mountain except for "it is there". There does not need to be a named mob with loot, or a quest giver/taker. Everquest had plenty of NPC's in and around homes, out in the wilds of East Commonlands, North Karana, North Ro and more. There were places in EQ which were just meant to be experienced. The content came in getting to those places, and staying alive while looking around the area.
Surface dungeons are probably more what you are looking to experience, Amsai. I have no problem with it. We called them 'camps' back in EQ days. These camps would hold differing numbers of mobs, and many had named mobs which would spawn either rarely, or semi-rarely. Most of the other mobs held some kind of loot - food/water, coin, level appropriate clothing/armor/weapons. I understand your concerns but am not worried about the content with Brad and his crew putting it together. :)
I'm also not worried about the instancing problems. Brad has said instancing will be used minimally.
Some of you old schoolers may remember Bartle's Test, where he breaks up MUD/MMO players up into Achievers, Explorers, Socializers, and Killers.
What I've found is that most people are some sort of mixture of at least 3 of the 4. I'm mostly an achiever, but exploration and socialization are both super important to me. PvP not so much.
But I think it was the exploration that drew me to MUDs and MMOs. I've been a fantasy fan for a very long time. I loved reading about these fantasy worlds. And while I enjoyed reading about the protagonist's adventures through these amazing worlds, I always wished it was me instead in that world. MMOs meet this need of mine. Playing an MMO I can actually be inside of a virtual world and learn about it, explore it, see new things... I can experience discovery.
I actually think that MMOs haven't rewarded exploration enough. Of course there's always the challenge, being that we are in the Internet age, that people will put up 'spoiler' sites, posting maps of the world, the dungeons, and just where you should go. Not sure what we do to get around that. That said, it is still the players choice to go to these sites. If he doesn't want to, and instead wants to explore himself, he may, and I would love to reward or at least recognize it.
I also love the idea of distant lands, of it taking time and involving risk visiting them. This can even tie into having a strong player driven economy, where a player who travels far and brings back exotic goods can then sell them for a profit.
Lastly, I really like that MMOs are never truly finished.... I think expansions are fantastic. I think it's great that once I've explored a world, that at some point that world expands, opening up new areas for me to travel to, to get to know.
That said, there is still the Achiever in me. If there was just the virtual world, or perhaps the game was the utopian 'sand box' some people like to talk about, but I didn't feel like I was accomplishing anything, or advancing my character, I don't think exploration in and of itself would be enough. Same with the socializer in me. If you put me in an incredible world, but I couldn't share that world with other, real people, it just wouldn't be as compelling. I did play Skyrim for a while.... in fact, it held my attention more than most single player games, and it was probably the incredibly detailed and interesting world that did it. But it only held my attention a month or so.
So, in summary, exploration is extremely important to me. Not only that, I think an MMO that lacked exploration would really be missing something. But, at least for me, I have to have achievement and socializing, in addition to exploration, to truly enjoy an MMO for months and years. In fact, I think there's another trinity that maybe people don't talk about as much. There's the trinity or defining of core roles in group combat. But there may also be another trinity, and that is making sure your MMO is interesting to explorers, achievers, and socializers. Not only are many people a mixture, but the different perspectives also help build a more interesting community. If every gamer is totally like minded, then I don't think the community that would still hopefully form would be quite as interesting. The socializer that goes around meeting people, helping them out, advising them -- they benefit the achiever. The explorer who goes out and figures out the lay of the land, where to go, where not to go... he brings with him important information. I think this synergy is important and, like many things as of late, has been neglected.
For me, exploration in a game is definitely important. I love the feeling of 'if you can see it, you can go there.' I also love finding little hidden treasures, a super cool cave, an overgrown temple, some camp of crazy monsters that I've never encountered, or a tiny hidden village that I've never been to before. All that gives me a little thrill.
However, the best part of exploring, for me, is to find those little out of the way places that I can go to and just /sit under a tree, or gaze off at the beautiful view. These are the places with no treasure, no structures, just a sweet little spot where I can watch the trees sway and listen to the birds sing. I think it's because although I'm a pretty social gamer, some times in game life, just like in real life, I can get overwhelmed, or stressed, or tired, and I feel the need to be alone somewhere and just collect my thoughts. To gaze off into the distance and process that last raid, get some downtime, and reflect. Vanguard had lots of places like that. Newer games, not so much. I really miss those places...
Sylee said:
However, the best part of exploring, for me, is to find those little out of the way places that I can go to and just /sit under a tree, or gaze off at the beautiful view. These are the places with no treasure, no structures, just a sweet little spot where I can watch the trees sway and listen to the birds sing. I think it's because although I'm a pretty social gamer, some times in game life, just like in real life, I can get overwhelmed, or stressed, or tired, and I feel the need to be alone somewhere and just collect my thoughts. To gaze off into the distance and process that last raid, get some downtime, and reflect. Vanguard had lots of places like that. Newer games, not so much. I really miss those places...
Well said. IMHO, exploration doesn't always have to end in a reward to be meaningful. Sometimes the journey, the view, and the memory are the most powerful experience you could ever have hoped for. Beyond that, if every hidden area produces some tangible reward then it takes away from every other area because they all produce the same outcome.
Aradune said:
Some of you old schoolers may remember Bartle's Test, where he breaks up MUD/MMO players up into Achievers, Explorers, Socializers, and Killers.
What I've found is that most people are some sort of mixture of at least 3 of the 4. I'm mostly an achiever, but exploration and socialization are both super important to me. PvP not so much.
But I think it was the exploration that drew me to MUDs and MMOs. I've been a fantasy fan for a very long time. I loved reading about these fantasy worlds. And while I enjoyed reading about the protagonist's adventures through these amazing worlds, I always wished it was me instead in that world. MMOs meet this need of mine. Playing an MMO I can actually be inside of a virtual world and learn about it, explore it, see new things... I can experience discovery.
I actually think that MMOs haven't rewarded exploration enough. Of course there's always the challenge, being that we are in the Internet age, that people will put up 'spoiler' sites, posting maps of the world, the dungeons, and just where you should go. Not sure what we do to get around that. That said, it is still the players choice to go to these sites. If he doesn't want to, and instead wants to explore himself, he may, and I would love to reward or at least recognize it.
I also love the idea of distant lands, of it taking time and involving risk visiting them. This can even tie into having a strong player driven economy, where a player who travels far and brings back exotic goods can then sell them for a profit.
Lastly, I really like that MMOs are never truly finished.... I think expansions are fantastic. I think it's great that once I've explored a world, that at some point that world expands, opening up new areas for me to travel to, to get to know.
That said, there is still the Achiever in me. If there was just the virtual world, or perhaps the game was the utopian 'sand box' some people like to talk about, but I didn't feel like I was accomplishing anything, or advancing my character, I don't think exploration in and of itself would be enough. Same with the socializer in me. If you put me in an incredible world, but I couldn't share that world with other, real people, it just wouldn't be as compelling. I did play Skyrim for a while.... in fact, it held my attention more than most single player games, and it was probably the incredibly detailed and interesting world that did it. But it only held my attention a month or so.
So, in summary, exploration is extremely important to me. Not only that, I think an MMO that lacked exploration would really be missing something. But, at least for me, I have to have achievement and socializing, in addition to exploration, to truly enjoy an MMO for months and years. In fact, I think there's another trinity that maybe people don't talk about as much. There's the trinity or defining of core roles in group combat. But there may also be another trinity, and that is making sure your MMO is interesting to explorers, achievers, and socializers. Not only are many people a mixture, but the different perspectives also help build a more interesting community. If every gamer is totally like minded, then I don't think the community that would still hopefully form would be quite as interesting. The socializer that goes around meeting people, helping them out, advising them -- they benefit the achiever. The explorer who goes out and figures out the lay of the land, where to go, where not to go... he brings with him important information. I think this synergy is important and, like many things as of late, has been neglected.
Very nice post, Brad.
I was an explorer :) But socializing is very important to me and I do want to grow and expand my character, which is why your last paragraph really hit home. It was a nice comparison to the holy trinity of the early times, and I completely agree we need more of both trinities than we have seen in the recent past. There are definitely advantages to using each trinity as a basis for the game world, and each third of the trinity requires the other two thirds in order to be successful and efficient.
I think the two trinities you spoke about are part of another trinity. If you combine content,graphics,audio as an entity and place it with your Bartle's trinity and the core combat trinity, there is another important core trinity to the MMORPG.
For me, exploring is 'end game' content :) I'm not one to have to acheive something in order to feel the greatest reward, unless that acheivement is tied into being able to go someplace few or none have gotten to previously and lived to tell about it hehe. Then I'm driven to acheive and focused on content/loot like a madman, it's a self re-enforcing dynamic that is like supa-cheese to a rat!
I couldn't care less about getting the latest and greatest simply to be able to bash more and get more loots, just not my style. I enjoy the surroundings I'm in while I'm grouping/soloing and I take my time to adventure more, discover more in the area. It's more in line with reading a good novel or fantasy book, or roleplaying in DnD was. Social aspects just fall into place with this type of adventuring, it just makes sense.
Great post Aradune, can't wait to see what is in store man!
The ability to explore with limited boundries is part of what make a virtual world feel real. When I first started EQ and found out druids got invis before the level cap for leaving your stuff on your corpse, I had to make one! I explored everywhere at level 6, died alot when invis dropped but was able to see how huge the world was. I have been explorer in every game that let me since. Hated EQ2 level restrictions on zones. Done alot of betas and played alot of games (fell out of alot of game worlds too), but never felt that level of excitement that I did sneaking around EQ1. Also ended up making a Druid "Lianai" on every game since as a main lol.
Exploration is THE key piece for me... To be honest, there are some nights I just want to log in and take my mind off things, run around and just explore the virtual world. There were so many places you could go in EQ that were non threatening, and I tried to see it all. Sort of a mini game so to speak. Maybe that is why I don't level super fast, I take a lot of simple stuff in along the way.
So a BIG world full of openess is so much fun... I cannot wait to see the workd if Pantheon!