Ok, so here is a question: When should VR time the first expansion? Before the average population level reaches the max level? Or some point before max level? Or after some percentage of the population reaches max level?
This ties into how slowly people level because it determines how fast VR must be ready for an expansion.
I think there are questions which get to the root a little quicker than this one does:
I honestly don't care how long it takes to level. I just want it to be fun.
6 months to max level? Seems a bit long, but if I'm enjoying it, fine. The thing is, though, can we really find something new to do for six months? How many kobolds can you slaughter before you want to poke your eyes out with a keyboard? How many: 'go here, gather this' quests? If you had six months of well-designed, independant dungeons to explore...sure. But thats a LOT of work.
There was this dungeon in VG that really hooked me early on. Can't remember the name of it. I started in Kojan. It wasn't the very first castle, but it was on the first island, underground....and it was huge. It just kept going, and each section had quests and new mobs and new mechanics and new loot. I spent waay longer there than was strictly needed to level. If I had six months worth of content like that, sure. But again, that's asking a lot of both devs and players.
So, ding level two in five minutes? Sure. Ding level two in twenty? Yep. Ding level two in an hour? I don't care, so long as I'm having a good time.
Level 1 should go by relatively quick. You want to show a new player what happens when you level and what to expect. Give them a baby carrot to make them want the bigger carrots that come next.
There are plenty of ways to make the trek to max level slow and enjoyable, but I don't think doing so right out of the gates will do much to hook new players. Many of us are used to slow levels, but you have to consider it from a new player perspective.
Zorus said:
I think there are questions which get to the root a little quicker than this one does:
I honestly don't care how long it takes to level. I just want it to be fun.
6 months to max level? Seems a bit long, but if I'm enjoying it, fine. The thing is, though, can we really find something new to do for six months? How many kobolds can you slaughter before you want to poke your eyes out with a keyboard? How many: 'go here, gather this' quests? If you had six months of well-designed, independant dungeons to explore...sure. But thats a LOT of work.
There was this dungeon in VG that really hooked me early on. Can't remember the name of it. I started in Kojan. It wasn't the very first castle, but it was on the first island, underground....and it was huge. It just kept going, and each section had quests and new mobs and new mechanics and new loot. I spent waay longer there than was strictly needed to level. If I had six months worth of content like that, sure. But again, that's asking a lot of both devs and players.
So, ding level two in five minutes? Sure. Ding level two in twenty? Yep. Ding level two in an hour? I don't care, so long as I'm having a good time.
I believe it was Tomb of Lord Tsang (ToLT) that you are referring too and if so, I agree, that dungeon was pretty awesome, as was the Thestra level equivalent Khegor's End! Both very cool, very big and a lot of fun! :)
Though the leveling speed was similar to EQ when VG first released it gradually changed over time to level much more easily and I don't think that was a good move, since it bottlenecks every at end game content with nothing to do other than a handful of required quests to raid and get faction, but I personally think a spot somewhere in the middle of both games would be ideal for Pantheon.
Kilsin said:Zorus said:
I think there are questions which get to the root a little quicker than this one does:
I honestly don't care how long it takes to level. I just want it to be fun.
6 months to max level? Seems a bit long, but if I'm enjoying it, fine. The thing is, though, can we really find something new to do for six months? How many kobolds can you slaughter before you want to poke your eyes out with a keyboard? How many: 'go here, gather this' quests? If you had six months of well-designed, independant dungeons to explore...sure. But thats a LOT of work.
There was this dungeon in VG that really hooked me early on. Can't remember the name of it. I started in Kojan. It wasn't the very first castle, but it was on the first island, underground....and it was huge. It just kept going, and each section had quests and new mobs and new mechanics and new loot. I spent waay longer there than was strictly needed to level. If I had six months worth of content like that, sure. But again, that's asking a lot of both devs and players.
So, ding level two in five minutes? Sure. Ding level two in twenty? Yep. Ding level two in an hour? I don't care, so long as I'm having a good time.
I believe it was Tomb of Lord Tsang (ToLT) that you are referring too and if so, I agree, that dungeon was pretty awesome, as was the Thestra level equivalent Khegor's End! Both very cool, very big and a lot of fun! :)
Though the leveling speed was similar to EQ when VG first released it gradually changed over time to level much more easily and I don't think that was a good move, since it bottlenecks every at end game content with nothing to do other than a handful of required quests to raid and get faction, but I personally think a spot somewhere in the middle of both games would be ideal for Pantheon.
Nailed it.
Raidan said:You can't take the element of time in a vacuum and say it doesn't add to challenge, because, in and of itself it doesn't, but how it synergizes with other core mechanics is where the challenge can be added.
And, back on topic, I know a baseline of time/exp gain has to be developed in order to gauge progression, but along with Pyye's post, if the game is built well, like EQ, progression will be slower because people are exploring, questing, tradeskilling, etc. etc. instead of just /powerleveling to max level. Will that happen still with power gamers, sure, but, built in slow progression is one thing, having ridiculously slow levels just to slow it down is another. Basically, if the only thing slowing people down was because levels took longer, the game failed already. I want levels to take longer (I'd be ok with longer than EQlaunch), but also progression be "much" slower because Pantheon has so much "meaningful" content to complete (not trivial quest hubs). Basically, make it feel like a game world again, and the progression will slow down naturally.
I pretty much agree with everything you said. The bolded statement above I think is the perfect disctinction of "time spent DOES NOT EQUATE TO CHALLENGE"
I don't think the time from Level 1 to Level 2 matters as much as from Level 1 to max level. My thoughts:
(1) From a dev resource standpoint, content is created for all levels. If the bulk of players at launch spend a week on Level 1-49 content and then 6-12 months until the next expansion on level 50 content, you have used a ton of resources developing content which players will have minimal interaction with. Given the finite dev resources available for any game, its a waste of time and talent to create content that gets blown through and never seen again by a player.
(2) As Kilsin pointed out, if everyone gets to max level right away, it creates a huge bottleneck and strain on end-game content, especially in a static world of non-instanced encounters. With slower leveling, you get a more even distribution of player levels...sure the hardcore folks playing 18 hours a day will still get to end-game pretty quick, and on the other end of the scale, someone playing a couple hours a week may only be level 5 at the end of the first month. That's great. That means in a static world, your players are distributed across all of the zones, interacting with all of the content that has been created. Yes, there's a thrill for racing or competing over rare mobs and raids and such...but nobody likes fighting over xp grind camps so the fast you have a diverse-level population of players and the longer it stays diverse instead of crowded at max-level, you increase the likelihood that someone is going to be able to login and interact with level-appropriate content that allows them to feel like they are progressing in the game.
(3) Slow leveling allows people to actually experience the content. It feels like in modern MMOs, by the time you finish going through a dungeon for the first time, you've already outgrown it and are off to harder content. There's no reason a dungeon for level 10-15 players can't be as exciting, fun or challenging as a dungeon for level 50 players. If thats the case then, and you say a 12 month launch period before the first new content comes out, players should be able to enjoy themselves just as much spending 3 months of level 1-20 content as they do spending 3 months on level 20-40 content, 3 months on level 40-50 content, and 3 months farming level 50 content to prep for the next expansion.
This all depends on the assumption that many people have pointed out, including Furor. Time Spent does not equate to Challenge. Progression should be slow because there is so much high quality content that if it were faster then the players would not have enough time to interact with and enjoy it. If a player has to repeat a "Go Kill 5 Rats" quest 50 times just to be able to gain 1 level, thats not fun and the old school target audience that Pantheon is going after will see it for the thinly veiled time-sink to make up for a lack of content that it would be.
I think all depend on the ways to level, questing social explore the first lvevels should be focused these way, know your city their lore and searching for the first adventurers, 80% social questing 20% killing (you will have a couple of skills/spells, 8 hours presing 1, 2, no please) 2 to 4 hours would be enought to meet that requeriments and been able to advance/ding next lvl, after finished with the city and start your adventure I d love to increase the dificulty curve and yes 8-10 hours play would be great, increasing the curve lightly as you lvl. For normal players first 5 lvls should be done in a week (4 hours per day), and lvl 50 6-8 months.
The game should make us spend time because we love playing it. How much time did people spend NOT leveling while camping their Ghoulbane or farming purity belts for resale or buying low and selling high to fund their crafting skills, or traveling from one end of the world to the other for no other reason than it was fun?
I would like level 1 to take longer in this game compared to traditional level 1s in other games. By the time you're level 2, I'd like you to have already learned how to kill mobs, how to get and complete quests, how to group, and the basics of your class. From a RP perspective, each level should be unlocked when you've "mastered" all that was laid before you in the previous level, not just when you arbitrarily slaughter 100 mobs or whatever. I also think it would be cool if you had to return to your guild master at each new level to "unlock" your next level, instead of just going "ding" wherever you are in the world, and suddenly being able to just "know" how to do your new abilities like in certain modern MMOs. Even EQ (which made you go learn new abilities from a master) would let you start advancing your previously-learned abilities right away in the field without any guidance. I think it'd be cool if this game didn't really allow for that. I also HATE in game tutorials, but think there could be a nice "best of both worlds" if level 1 looked something like this:
You start off with a note and a crappy tunic. The note tells you to seek out a guild master. You need to go explore the town to find the guild master. When you find him, he teaches you the basics of your class' level 1 abilities and gives you a rusty weapon or basic spell to fight with based on your class. Lets say you're a monk and he says something like "you must master the arts of hand to hand combat, and the use of your feet in combat. Also, you must learn to help those in need around you with tasks they cannot do themselves. Return to me when you have learned how to do these things, and proven your ability to vanquish foes, and your training will continue." So now, instead of just going out to grind exp and the abilities "come along as they come," you instead have a checklist of things to work on:
[ ] Get Hand to Hand combat to level 5
[ ] Get Kick to level 5
[ ] Complete 3 quests for local townsfolk
[ ] Kill enough mobs to ding
Once all four items are checked off, you get a little text that is like "you feel you are ready to return to your master and continue your training," maybe accompanied by a traditional "ding" sound and graphic so you don't miss it in the heat of battle. You go back to the guild master, and he's like "woot, you're super awesome now, welcome to level 2!" Then you ACTUALLY ding. If they kept this up for every level, but they kept upping the anti for each ability, adding in new requirements, and expontentially increasing the amount of raw exp it took on top of your pre-requisits to ding, leveling would not only go slowly, but you'd be really experiencing the game instead of simply grind camping. It would be a lot more about the experience than just the path. People who like grind camping would still be able to do so if they want, but a structure is in place to really let you get out and explore your enviroment. Myabe you can get 2 levels worth of exp in one camp session, but if you don't take the break to go back to town, you'll still need to master your new abilities after speaking to the guild master. This way if you camp, you still earned the grind exp necessary, but the flow goes nicer if you take little breaks here and there. After about level 5, this really won't matter anymore because I really don't think you should be getting more than 1 level a day, even after only a few levels. I'd like every level to mean something, even level 2. Even if that something is just "ok, I get the vibe of what this class and game are about," I think you should get that on the way to level 2. I'd again prefer to see this "in the real world," not in some fabricated in-game tutorial zone where you can't help but win.
Also, I agree with the people in this thread who think there should be checks in place to keep everyone from racing to the end game. I feel like in some games, racing to the endgame is "the way" because the entirety of level 1-49 is just one massive tutorial to get you good at endgame content. The original spirit of EQ was that "it never ends." You explore your world, and level 50 might not be the greatest thing, because you run out of things to do/places to see. THEN raiding comes into play to keep people interested/have things to do, but I think that there should be things to do all along the way that are interesting/difficult, so you're not just trying to chase the carrot of getting to "the real game."
From a practical standpoint, what is killing tons of MMOs these days is that it's way too easy to level. Everyone gets to the endgame in a few days, no more than a week, but dev's haven't had a chance to really flesh out the end game yet. So now you're suddenly stuck with a huge chunk of max level players with very little content to do, most of which is buggy. There should be some raid content out there at launch, but it should be REALLY hard, and getting to that level should be REALLY hard, so that when people finally arrive at max level, they find there's a challenge ahead that won't be solved by the end of the week. I miss the days when raid mobs took months before they were downed by the first guild serverwide, or where the end game boss was never defeated until months later when the next expansion came out. No one killed the last few bosses in Tacvi until Omens was already out, for example.
Sorry that I drifted off from the level 1 question a bit there, but I think that it really ties into all leveling. I guess after this long winded post, the answer comes down to "no less than a few hours, even for experiences players, several hours for less experience players." If the 3 quests for level 1 take 10-20 minutes minimum a piece, a constant stream of combat gets you to level 5 of your abilities after about 2 hours, and you need about 100 mobs to ding level 2, then a veteran player could overlap all that and get it done in about 2 hours, but a rookie might take 5-8 while they learn the ropes. That sounds reasonable to me. Killing 30 mobs and having enough exp to ding, and suddenly being able to do new stuff without ever talking to an NPC is not very reasonable to me.
Arksien said:From a RP perspective, each level should be unlocked when you've "mastered" all that was laid before you in the previous level, not just when you arbitrarily slaughter 100 mobs or whatever. I also think it would be cool if you had to return to your guild master at each new level to "unlock" your next level, instead of just going "ding" wherever you are in the world, and suddenly being able to just "know" how to do your new abilities like in certain modern MMOs. Even EQ (which made you go learn new abilities from a master) would let you start advancing your previously-learned abilities right away in the field without any guidance. I think it'd be cool if this game didn't really allow for that.
I like the idea of having to go back to the guildmaster - makes me think of the older RPG's (like one of my personal favorites - Might and Magic Clouds of Xeen). It would also be interesting to see a MMO design the "leveling" experience around ideas like you suggest -although I'm not big on checklists that feel forced (I'd like it to be more skill based that the player could show their "knowledge" of the class, not sure how the game could confirm it though). And it would also be beneficial that there would be no easily identifiable measure for progression - using a hidden exp bar (at least until after Wiki's are released). It would get outside the mindset of staring at the exp bar; even though, exp would obviously still be the primary method of progression. And, it would also promote returns to the city to check on progression if it wasn't automatic and readily available to the player. This could promote other side benefits of higher levels interacting with lower, player trading, etc.
Annnd when you returned to the trainer, the trainer could scream at you, "Lookin' to train?"
Level 2 - "Good Job!"
Level 3 - "Good Job!"
Level 4 - "NOT TODAY!"
(It makes sense if you've played the game haha)
And if you didn't level (Not today above) - you check back the next time you return to the city to sell wares, buy food/drink, etc.
Kilsin said:
Though the leveling speed was similar to EQ when VG first released it gradually changed over time to level much more easily.
When I played EQ after 8 months I was only about 75% to max level casual playing (started when karana was released). It would take 1-2 weeks per level in the 40's. Vanguard I was maxed in about 2 months. Quit after 3 months as There wasn't much more to strive for. EQ kept me paying for 5+ years.
Level 1 should take as long as it takes to kill 10-20 mobs, to get the hang of the mechanics of combat and the game before people get stuck into it. A group would be faster than soloing.
I don't know, I hear a lot of posts about exp claim that killing the same kobold or alligator over and over again is boring, but that's not really the entire point of what Pantheon is trying to do, is it?
My point is, does it matter what kobold or alligator you're killing, as long as it's a reason to bring you and your friends together, to let the magic that is socialization happen? I feel like these days I enjoy the people I play with more often than the game itself, now that is something that has changed since 1999, but even back then, the stuff we remember the most always involves the people you loved and hated the most.
TL:DR if Pantheon wants us to slaughter 1000s of kobolds to gain 1 level again like EQ did, I'm totally for it, because the more time it takes me and my friends to progress, the more time we have to socialize in a fun and strategic setting.
P.S. I've also noticed people saying "well you can't have level 1 take too long, because you don't have many skills and it would be boring", while that may be true, you could have a tiered level 1, where you go through a sort of level tutorial, that unlocks skills and gets you to where you have a kit, then level 1 starts. So when people are level 1 they are ready to start grouping. Call it a prologue...
I honestly think level 1 shouldn't matter at all. The whole point of levelling through a game is you're gaining experience with your character and the mechanics of the overall game. I don't see why I should spend 8 (OP) hours to get to level 2 and then 5 minutes per level from then on.
After 8 hours I'd confidently say I'm familiar with the game generally nowadays, back when MMO's were new sure, give people a longer intro / tutorial but now everyone has played countless MMO's in the past, being stuck at level 1 to 'learn the game' isn't my opinion of a good idea.
@Kaelang, I think you've misread something or I have, because I don't see anyone in the thread arguing for level 1 to be the longest. I think those of us saying 5-8 hours for level 1 are expecting the same ish to a little more per level until 5. By level 20 it should be days between level. By 40 it should be weeks... plural. I agree with Boulda. I didn't max level in EQ for the better part of a year, and I was playing daily. I do however have TONS of fond memories from before max level. Contrast that to WoW where are launch you could max level in under a month, and now you can max level in a matter of days. I hit max level in ESO in under a month, and I was intentionally staying behind in zones I outgrew to make sure I saw everything I wanted to. That's why I proposed a system above where each level has requirements above a simple exp grind. Have a guild master that sets expectations for you, with each new level becoming more complex. Maybe the level 20 goals can't physically be done in under 3 days, so the average player is taking a week or more to go from 20 to 21. When it takes this long, suddenly camping 1 zone is unacceptably mind numbing, so it gives people a reason to go explore that harder to get to zone, or maybe at level 30 your guild master tells you to exp in an enemy zone as part of your training. Maybe at 45 he tells you he won't advance you until you've raised faction with an enemy. Putting real challenges in that also happen to be time sinks is nice so that everyone isn't just blowing through content in a race to the top. That shouldn't always be the goal of a social mmo. It wasn't the goal in older, slower games, which is what many of us hope will happen here.
@Raidin yes, I like the idea of hidden exp. The fewer bars and gauges the better imo. I don't really think we should have much beyond hp and mana personally. I would like the guild master to tell you what he expects of you for the next level. I also like the idea of checking in when you're in town. Anyone ever play the old Ultima games here? One of my favorites was Ultima IV: Quest of the Avatar. You had to keep going back to Castel Britannia from time to time to talk to Hawkwind, and ask him how you were doing in each of the 8 virtues. I think that would be a cool exp mechanic. Instead of just a bar to fill, maybe your GM goes
"You must improve on the flying kick I have taught you against a true foe. You must also aid the people of this town to show your dedication to us. To reach your next level of training, you must also make peace with the rival clan."
So every once in a while you go back he goes "your flying kick has improved greatly, but I think you can do more. You have aided the people of this town well, congratulations! However, I hear the rival clan still thinks you're troll dung. Impress them and you'll impress me!"
That's a much better per-level advancement structure than just "ok I have enough exp points, ding!" And along keeps some mystery in the game. Plus, it gives the number nerds something to do while they furiously try to figure out how much of x, y, and z you need for each new level of each class.
Rallyd said:I don't know, I hear a lot of posts about exp claim that killing the same kobold or alligator over and over again is boring, but that's not really the entire point of what Pantheon is trying to do, is it?
My point is, does it matter what kobold or alligator you're killing, as long as it's a reason to bring you and your friends together, to let the magic that is socialization happen? I feel like these days I enjoy the people I play with more often than the game itself, now that is something that has changed since 1999, but even back then, the stuff we remember the most always involves the people you loved and hated the most.
/Agreed
I would like level 1 to take a really long time- more than a day played. Not sure how long though. Let it set the tone of the game - that it is not meant to be rushed, than you can and should group up with others that early instead of racing to the top solo. Let that ding level 2 be glorious!
Zarriya said:I would like level 1 to take a really long time- more than a day played. Not sure how long though. Let it set the tone of the game - that it is not meant to be rushed, than you can and should group up with others that early instead of racing to the top solo. Let that ding level 2 be glorious!
Even classic EQ didn't take that long to get to level 2. Do you want everyone to quit on day one?
Liav said:Zarriya said:I would like level 1 to take a really long time- more than a day played. Not sure how long though. Let it set the tone of the game - that it is not meant to be rushed, than you can and should group up with others that early instead of racing to the top solo. Let that ding level 2 be glorious!
Even classic EQ didn't take that long to get to level 2. Do you want everyone to quit on day one?
Everyone has their own preference. That is mine. Yea get rid of the scrubs early on ;) I'm a bit tired of impatient people. Xp/lvl does not have to be on a curve. It could mean level 1-2 takes the same amount of time as level 30-31. The exponetial xp system exists to give players a quick "high" and start the addictive leveling process. that can be tweaked in any manner.
Anyways do not worry, That is probably not the path they will take, like I said it is my preference.
Filzin said: Careful what you wish for. Making low levels take too long will limit long term growth. As word gets out about pantheonrotf post launch and stragglers start coming around, we want them to be able to catch up with the bulk of the population. If low levels are too long and require large groups, we will relegate our game to only the initial launch population and once it dwindles.....
I hear what you are saying Filzin, and I agree - but that is the always the problem of having a game with levels. In a game with level based content you always have that seperation issue. The game shouldnt just be all about rushing to endgame and that is what my comment is conveying.
Low lvls till about lvl 10 should go fairly quick, maybe 10-20 hours to gain the most class defining abilities in order to learn how the class feels. After that it all depends if there is content worth to do, loot worth to get i pretty much did like EQs lvl pace.
But i dont want to farm lvl 10 stuff wich is outclassed by lvl 15 stuff not even depending on rarity and so on, there should be loot that stays attractive till end game even in low lvl dungeons. I remember EQ had Jboots or Damage shield clickys illusion items dropped in lower lvl content which to me made it worth camping there DnD online has such items as well like heal clickys with unlimited charges low healing amount small recast time and slow to heal up with but worthwhile in that game at times just some gimmnicks you like and make you a more efficient player.
In early EQ there was no lvl restriction on items: for example Haste Sash from Lower Guk could be worn by a lvl 1 but the dungeon was lvl 40 or so. Or the Regen Tunic from that other dungeon wich gave you 15 hps all 3 seconds or some such thoose have been nice twink items. Just today the items are all lvl restricted and are outdated by some higher lvl item quickly.
If i cant get some items, and i dont want all items to be that way just a chance to find something really good on low lvl stuff that stays by my side even at the end lvl.Or even the chance to learn some skills from thoose low lvl npc be it whatever it just shouldn be stuff thats easily replaced all few lvls.
I want to grow up with my equipment and love it, respect my hard earned equipment and kind of not leaving mountains of trash on my way up. In todays games in order to have 50% damage mitigation at lvl 30 you need lvl 30 items and once you lvl 31 your mitigation with a lvl 30 item is lowered to 48% or some such, means you lvl higher, your armor gets worse to me. I kind of dislike this, since in reality my Magic Mythril Armor of Fire immunity shouldn get worse as i lvl up. Anyway, a good loot system and mitigation avoidance resist system that makes sense and drags players to the game is prolly hard to realize but surely doable. EQ did it pretty well at start but back then i wasnt into number crunchin as much as of today so i cant even tell if i would still like it since i didn care about it back in the days. This is more the way i feel makes most sense in a game.
Amsai said: @ Raidan The trials or challenges for leveling past a certain point were originally in the plan the devs had. After the website update, i didnt see it mentioned. I asked about it somewhere on the forums here and Kilsin said something like it has been removed and/or changed and there would be more info later. So Im not really 100% sure what that means will become of it. I really do hope they have it in Pantheon as I really liked it in FFXI.
Yeah, I remember - the Achievement system changed to the community member named "Rights of Passage" system (I think Hieromonk maybe?) and I recall Kilsin saying it had been changed as well.
Either way, I was highly skeptical of that system for the same reasons I would be on Arksien's proposal - I don't want advancement to feel forced/linear, etc. through a checklist of items or a quest that had to be completed at 20/30/40/50 or your progression halted. However, if there could be some natural/organic way of the world recognizing you have mastered your skills for the level you were on (i.e. like crowd control for an enchanter) then I wouldn't be aganist that - I'm just not sure how the game could register it outside of you /casting enthrall 1,000 times. I'm for innovation where it makes sense, but as Rallyd said, I'm really supporting Pantheon for the same reasons he listed in his post.
Zarriya said:Filzin said: Careful what you wish for. Making low levels take too long will limit long term growth. As word gets out about pantheonrotf post launch and stragglers start coming around, we want them to be able to catch up with the bulk of the population. If low levels are too long and require large groups, we will relegate our game to only the initial launch population and once it dwindles.....I hear what you are saying Filzin, and I agree - but that is the always the problem of having a game with levels. In a game with level based content you always have that seperation issue. The game shouldnt just be all about rushing to endgame and that is what my comment is conveying.
But to Zarriya's point, without slow progression you damage the long-term anyway. And, I don't want the stragglers to catch up - I'd rather avoid that mindset. Like Zarriya said, I want the perception to change from rushing to endgame (catching-up) to enjoying the journey. They should experience the game as did everyone else did, and, if they're /power levelers they may catch up to initial crowd. If Pantheon is at the point where the newbie zones are bare 6+ months after launch (or less) - and it's only stragglers who are starting - then there's some population issues. EQ didn't experience the bare newbie zones until many expansions after launch. I'd rather Pantheon be creative with design to continue to make newbie/older zones relevant rather than plan by design that newbie zones will ultimately be bare so newbie content should be burned through.