I definitely consider myself an old school gamer. EQ and VG (old school in spirit) are my favorite games of all time. Most of you are probably old schoolers too. With that said, are there some things you put up with in the good ole days or perhaps even enjoyed back then that wouldn't fly with you today?
I can think of many examples for myself, but I think the main one for me is I used to not mind camping a spot for 12 hours hoping for a rare spawn or drop that I needed for a quest or item drop. These days life it too busy for me and I would have to pass on such camps.
I would attempt those camps on occasion but never for that many hours in a row. I have always been ok with not having the best stuff. That didn't stop me from trying when i had the time.
For me would be more the long raids. I like raiding but the most time I will have is like 4hrs. That said I have no problem with those type raids being in game if that's what other players want to do more power to them.
I loved the days of camping mobs for hours for the rare spawn... however, I agree with kids, a business to run, wife to keep happy and ministry to be part of I don't have 12 hours a day anymore.
I honestly think as we look at this hardcore game where group content/ raid content is King we need to ask ourselves what are good and bad time sinks.
4 hour corpse runs = bad
4 hour dungeon crawls = good
12 hour rare spawns in one spot and the only spot over and over = bad
12 hour spawn within the zone anywhere possible over and over = good
(I this specific one kind of blurs into the earlier question about whose mob is it, on Rares I would make anyone who does x amount of dmg gets a drop roll on it.)
I mean I could go on EQ had some time sinks that just didn't make since- 36 hour frost bear spawn for totemic quest, 1 week hell levels, no good travel options, 2 to 4 hour corpse runs and so on. I think the answer is whatever equals old school with useful time sinks is good and whatever is just a time sink to be a time sink is bad. The nice thing about looking at the bad time sinks of the past is you can put in spells, abilities, pathing outs and so on to make sure the only time sinks around are the valuable ones like; leveling, low level raids, low lvl gearing, mid level raids, mid level gearing, max lvl raids, max lvl gear, max lvl AA's. ANYTHING BUT DAILY's PLEASE!!!!
Xan
I am old school on difficulty, death penalties, and even time sinks. Where I get not so old school is when they make no sense or don't add anything to the game. As always, we can use EQ1 to spot the difference:
Time sink that made sense - Coldain prayer shawl and ring. You took a long time to make the 8th shawl or the 10th ring, but each step was incremental progress and you were never just grinding one thing endlessly with a 0.5% drop chance. It just felt like a timesink that made sense.
Time sink that made no sense - half the mobs for the key to Veeshan's Peak. 3 medallions, 3 pieces each, and at least half were rare spawns on 18-21 minute timers with a 10% chance to spawn and a 20% to drop the item you needed. That was a timesink that made no sense because it didn't prepare or gear you for what was in VP, it was just boring soloing of a single 2-4 mob camp in some Kunark zone until you got lucky with the RNG. No teamwork, group dynamics, difficulty...just how long can you stare at the screen. The Kunark epic 1.0s all had a few items just like that...where the only thing being tested was your resistance to dying from boredom.
Travel time that makes sense - the first time you run from Freeport to Qeynos.
Travel time that makes no sense - every other time you run from Freeport to Qeynos.
Difficulty that makes sense - the Velious boss mobs (AoW, Tormax, Dain, Yelinak, NToV, etc).
Difficulty that makes no sense - any boss mob with Death Touch every 60 sec. Always hated the DT nonsense, even though it gave rangers a raid purpose.
So there are old school things I like, they just have to make some kinda sense as far as advancing the feel of the game is concerned. I am fine with camping J-Boots, the fishbone earring, etc. Decently powerful items that have long lasting utility. Cool, no sweat. But making me camp/sit/travel forever just because? Yeah, not so cool with that.
Amsai said:
*shivers* Oh god listen to Xan. Please no dailys. In place of that lets just have dev run events! Heh I know I know easier said than done.
Devs and GMs putting on contests and mingling with the players..? I loved that. :)
I'm not sure there is such a thing for me personally.
HOWEVER - I do think that I (and perhaps others!) will need a "readjustment period" to old school. That is, if you have played enough of the newer games, the mechanics (or lack thereof) may grate on you, but you get used to them over time. Going back to a more demanding game then will likely feel like (what I imagine) doing a polar bear swim feels like.
For those who are unfamiliar, polar bear swims are usually organized for a reason - draw attention to this or that - and involve, in the middle of winter when snow and ice are all around, putting on a swimsuit and running into the water at some beach or other.
VERY brief - VERY abrupt shock to your system.
I suspect - but don't know - that the first time something truly old school happens to me in Pantheon... will be like that.
GOD - I can't wait...
I was never a big camper, I did not "get" the need to stay in one place for too long but instead relied on the random aspect. I figured numerous players wandering through would be enough to get a pop when you went through. Sebs was good for gems and I as in a group in that spot for 2 hours, and some folks came by, because they also wanted gems for crafting or quests. Well, I mean how much steak can you eat? We were all stocked up and any merchant would have gotten us at least 300-500P, so we gave him the gem he was looking for, and moved on so they could have the gem spot. I mean really by that time we needed a change of scenery, BUT, if there was something I was looking for and the place was packed I would shout and ask if anyone was looking for he same thing and if not, if they could let me know. If I did not get any response I always shouted thank you, when we decided to leave. More often than not, I would get a tell:"If you can get here, you can have it!" thrills!
Thought of another old school thing I prefer over new school where the chat comments are related - finding groups. In new school MMOs, people still use the /trade channel to try and form groups for specific things, but most people do the group finder thing and just jump in with random people, hammer out the instance, jump out and never speak two words to each other. My warrior in FF 14 is almost 50, and I've run at least 3 PUGs every time I've ever logged in on that character, and she's said maybe 5 sentences total across all those groups. No need to speak.
That kinda sucks. Not saying I want to be Chatty Cathy, but in most games with PUG finders, you don't even say hello/thx/bye...nothing. I sorta miss tossing up the /lfg flag and actually conversing with people about where, who, what, how long, etc. My enchanter leveled JC in North Freeport with her /lfg flag up, and some nights I got very little JC done and was off to the next dungeon, and then sometimes I'd JC/chat all night since nobody came calling. I don't know, it just felt more connected than PUG finder, which honestly feels like having 3-4 random NPCs added as mercs.
I am hoping against all hope that I get a different community vibe from PRotF. Like people say hello, you actually ask people if it's their first time in a dungeon/scenario, you discuss strats, etc. New school grouping tools are convenient, but man do they take the soul out of the game. Now, that said, I do think Teamspeak/Ventrilo/Mumbl/whatever will add to the community vibe for folks who run it and use it even in small groups. I wish I had been able to voice chat back in early EQ1 like I did my last subscription this past fall. Small group of hardcore folks, but we were always in chat with each other. Made the game feel right.
Venjenz said:
... I sorta miss tossing up the /lfg flag and actually conversing with people about where, who, what, how long, etc. My enchanter leveled JC in North Freeport with her /lfg flag up, and some nights I got very little JC done and was off to the next dungeon, and then sometimes I'd JC/chat all night since nobody came calling....
.... Like people say hello, you actually ask people if it's their first time in a dungeon/scenario, you discuss strats, etc....Yes I understand this, because if someone was not familiar with an area you were heading to- you would run there differently, not like you would with more common friends. Likewise tips like " don't ask the unicorn for "Phat Lewtz"!" or "stay close to the wall here" is part of the essential communication. Even puller chatter. That quiet, just-too-long lull between pulls and one member asks "you ok?" as the group starts edging up- just to see the puller hauling butt around the corner, yelling "get back!".
I am for all things old school. Why? Because I've tried the alternative and it sucks. There is 0 feeling of accomplishment in the current batch of MMOs, including the modern EQ/EQ2. Even when they "slow it down" (EQ2 TL) you still hit max level in a few weeks to a month if you're really casual. I want an item to mean something. I want gaining a new ability to be exciting. I want taking down mobs to be hard again. I'm tired of rushing in, knowing nothing and being successful 99% of the time. I'm tired of the some of the greatest achievements being completed by myself or with only 1 or 2 other people.
Things simply must change if games are going to last longer than a month.
As to "not having enough time now that I'm a grown up", that makes no sense to me at all. Even if I can only play an hour or 2 a day, a few hours of farming will still provide me with more fun and excitement than another easy-mode game. Maybe all I have time to do on a given day is travel from point A to point B, well that travel meant something because it takes time, effort and there is risk involved. If I can only grind a bit of a level, at least then I will still have something to look forward to the next day. It might not be for everyone, but I can tell you very few people are playing MMOs right now for a reason, and I personally believe it has a lot to do with the way games are being made to give even the most casual players a feeling that they've somehow accomplished great things for doing nothing. People might even say they like those things, but all the games that had 100s of millions spent on them that can't hold a decent playerbase for over 2 months seems to suggest something different.
Corpse runs, just don't want them now, I want death to hurt but I think we have come far enough that we can come up with a better death penalty system.
Dullahan said:
As to "not having enough time now that I'm a grown up", that makes no sense to me at all. Even if I can only play an hour or 2 a day, a few hours of farming will still provide me with more fun and excitement than another easy-mode game. Maybe all I have time to do on a given day is travel from point A to point B, well that travel meant something because it takes time, effort and there is risk involved. If I can only grind a bit of a level, at least then I will still have something to look forward to the next day. It might not be for everyone, but I can tell you very few people are playing MMOs right now for a reason, and I personally believe it has a lot to do with the way games are being made to give even the most casual players a feeling that they've somehow accomplished great things for doing nothing. People might even say they like those things, but all the games that had 100s of millions spent on them that can't hold a decent playerbase for over 2 months seems to suggest something different.
This, this and some more of this. Especially the highlighted part. If there's one bit of magic that EQ1 used to have, that at the time seemed like "r u effing kidding me" but now actually makes me a believer in The Vision (tm), it's things like tonight's game session being nothing but moving my t00n from SRo to Lake of Ill Omen, or I guess since we are close, we can try LGuk or maybe Sol B, but if we scout and they are taken, we spend tonight moving to Kaesora, and tomorrow we can check the Kunark dungeons?
I don't buy the "no time to play harder game" nonsense either. The good news is that one thing I know for sure any McQuaid driven content won't disappoint on is the immersion and size of the world thing. Vanguard was closer to Kunark era EQ1 than Luclin and every expac past it was. The immersion thing I know PRotF will have covered in spades.
No more will zoning from GFay to Eastern Wastes be a two step jump. Nope, you want to go from GFay to EW, oh, it's old school earning it, at least until you get that tooth from the dragon ring and pay a druid taxi. Remember when uber guilds had the Cobalt Scar dragon ring tooth as a pre-req? Think on that for a second....a prerequisite to being in a raiding guild was having managed to travel to a specific point in an open, non-raid zone? Your travel is epic and immersive when raid guilds have "must reach destination X on foot" as a requirement for membership. Sorry, but that's cool to me.
And I hate to say, one of the biggest disappointments in the game's evolution was putting the Plane of Mischief portal in the Great Divide, when the door behind Vulak Aerr was so much better. PoM was like a super exclusive resort for uber guild players who actually killed the biggest baddest boss of NToV. Travel with that kind of epic requirement....count me in. You can't even set foot in the zone until you pull off something epic?
Zandil said:
Corpse runs, just don't want them now, I want death to hurt but I think we have come far enough that we can come up with a better death penalty system.
Going to respectfully disagree here. Corpse runs imho, are as close to hardcore mode as non-EVE games get. Really, it's part of the magic of Demon/Dark Souls...you want all those souls back? Better slog back through all that stuff and go fetch them.
The only death mechanic I would change in EQ is de-leveling. Lose exp, fine, but once you hit 0% for that level, death should simply go into deficit exp instead of taking away knowledge/skill. I never did get that one aspect of death in EQ.
Venjenz said:
Zandil said:
Corpse runs, just don't want them now, I want death to hurt but I think we have come far enough that we can come up with a better death penalty system.
Going to respectfully disagree here. Corpse runs imho, are as close to hardcore mode as non-EVE games get. Really, it's part of the magic of Demon/Dark Souls...you want all those souls back? Better slog back through all that stuff and go fetch them.
The only death mechanic I would change in EQ is de-leveling. Lose exp, fine, but once you hit 0% for that level, death should simply go into deficit exp instead of taking away knowledge/skill. I never did get that one aspect of death in EQ.
I'd like to think we have moved forward in 2015 and can think outside the box a little when it comes to a death penalty system.
Zandil said:
Venjenz said:
Zandil said:
Corpse runs, just don't want them now, I want death to hurt but I think we have come far enough that we can come up with a better death penalty system.
Going to respectfully disagree here. Corpse runs imho, are as close to hardcore mode as non-EVE games get. Really, it's part of the magic of Demon/Dark Souls...you want all those souls back? Better slog back through all that stuff and go fetch them.
The only death mechanic I would change in EQ is de-leveling. Lose exp, fine, but once you hit 0% for that level, death should simply go into deficit exp instead of taking away knowledge/skill. I never did get that one aspect of death in EQ.
I'd like to think we have moved forward in 2015 and can think outside the box a little when it comes to a death penalty system.
Hmmm.... I have to respectfully agree with Venjenz here and respectfully disagree with Zan. :) I don't mind corpse runs either. I mean I do... they suck. That's kinda the point. But I want getting killed to matter. When I die I *don't* want to think to myself, "Oh well, I'll just run back. Too bad the thing I was fighting is gonna heal up." That's the worst of it? I have to run back? Nah.
I want death to matter, for it to be something to avoid at all costs. I mean, I see your point, Zan, it's not 1999 and that perhaps MMO's should have evolved in this area since then. But, how? There has to be a consequence to dying. The way I see it is: The most valuable commodity as players is our time, xp *is* an unlimited resource but it's (generally) directly proportional to our time played... the only real thing we, as players, actually put into the game is our time so it hurts when that is taken away. (in the form of xp loss and time to get back our corpse). And it sucks, but so should dying. What else would matter as much?
I personally don't mind not having corpse runs, however i do think that there should be no fast travel and you have to respawn at your 1 bind point wherever that may be. There are many reasons i don't want fast travel, but as far as a death penalty having to run all the way back to where you were if you didn't bind somewhere close to where you are farming or doing whatever it is you were doing is penalty enough imo. Also with fast travel i feel like you miss out on many interesting and fun things that you only get from having to make a journey to wherever you are headed for the day. Fast travel also kills player made hubs of congregation. EC tunnel would never have existed if fast travel was in everquest, and that's one thing any only eq player remembers. I could see fast travel from say, one major city to another, but zone to zone or having portals to every damn place like rift or flightmasters like wow i think is a bad idea. Most people that miss games like everquest, vanguard, eq2 etc honestly miss the social aspect probably more than anything else tbh, and fast travel is one way to help kill the social aspect of the game. This is all my opinion so take it for what you will but that's how i feel.
Going to agree with many in here and no dailies. Also no quest hubs please. I don't want to run into a city and collect up 15 different quests so I can go out and farm a bunch of crap to collect. Quests need to be scattered around the world and not have a floating mark above their head.
As for corpse runs I would still be for them. I shouldn't be able to run into an area that is full of mobs that could fart in my general direction and strip the flesh off my bones and just think "meh its only a little bit of xp". If the mobs are capable of that then it makes you have a pretty damn good reason to enter that area and if you die then you know its going to be a pita getting your body back but you weight the risk vs reward in your head and make the decision yourself.
P.S. please add a mob that farts and strips the flesh off your bones in the game. I do believe I would die laughing but not before I show my son who would lose it laughing :)