I've seen it posted a couple times here and I thought I would just clarify my view on it.
There are a lot of people who have the opinion that this game can be divided into 2 categories of players. Hard core and Casual. Which is very true. The confusion comes in as what is Hard Core and what is Casual.
They define Hard Core as playing 12 – 14 hours a day, 5, 6, 7 days a week. Those that don't/can't are Casual. That's their definition. Now, I always find it odd that never qualify that definition as to what they're doing for 12 – 14 hours a day as compared to what the casual player is doing. So let explore that.
I started playing MMOs with EQ in late 1999 and I had the good fortune to be on one the very original servers, Veeshan. It's now Luclin – Stromm, for those that don't know. It was also home to one of the 2 guilds that owned most of, if not all world firsts. I'll get back to them in bit.
I have always worked 5, sometime 6 day a week, so as rule I had 5 hours Monday – Friday and 10 – 12 hours Saturday and Sunday. By definition, casual and in terms of real time took me longer to reach level 50. In terms time /played I had the same amount of time /played as any other level 50 wizard. Since everyone did the same thing from 1 -50. how many hours a day doesn't really matter.
After level 50 that's where it makes a difference. Me? I raided. Started out raiding 2 maybe 3 nights week and ended up raiding 5 sometime 6 nights a week. If I XP'd it was on Saturday or Sunday. Meaning that a good portion of what it took to get from 50 to 70 came from raid XP. Wasn't the most efficient way to level, but hey..
The guild I started out with was a small guild, but very strong. We did content that other guilds were raiding with 50ish people. We did it with 36 – 42 player. Took a lot of work sometimes to find a way to make a strategy work with only that many, but we did it and were probably the #5 of 6 guild. Later I moved on to higher ranked guilds and by the time I was done, was raiding in a guild that was probably #3 on the server.
And you know what? I'm a casual player and I proud of it. Why? (Told ya I get back to this). That's simple. I was around when Fires of Heaven and Afterlife were owning EQ. I have seen how they did things and what they went through to get those World first.
You think you're Hard Core? Played EQ? Raided? Everything you did, Quests or Raids, you were only able to do because someone from 1 of those guilds Solved the quest, figured out the strategy for Phinny, Naggy, Vox, Hate, Fear, etc. If you were a wizard, on any server and had your epic, it was because a FoH wizard spent 6 months figuring out the quest ( it was/is broke for those that didn't know). I've seen the endless parade of naked FoH members running back to the raid for 15th time that day because they were working out new raid content. If you did Naggy or Vox, did you do it in basically bronze armor with fine steel weapons or did you do it in Kunark, Velious gear?
There you have it in a nut shell. I don't know if there is any players left of that caliber. I know I never was. So next time your tempted to think that how many hours a day you play makes you Hard Core, remember this: It isn't how long, it's what you accomplish with that time that makes you Hard Core.
What you hope to accomplish definitely plays a part of being hardcore. Usually someone playing a lot hopes to see and do it all in a timely fashion. That said, 12-14 hours a day is well beyond hardcore. That's basement dwelling, neckbeard, "mom, more meatloaf" no-lifer status. I've been there and done it, but I don't personally think someone has to do that to be "hardcore".
To me, and based on everything I've seen in the last few decades of gaming, your rigid 40+ hours of gaming easily qualifies you in the hardcore category. A casual is someone who plays for a few hours a day, a few days a week. I'd say no more than 10-15 hours a week but there's obviously no official statistic for such a thing.
Dullahan said:
What you hope to accomplish definitely plays a part of being hardcore. Usually someone playing a lot hopes to see and do it all in a timely fashion. That said, 12-14 hours a day is well beyond hardcore. That's basement dwelling, neckbeard, "mom, more meatloaf" no-lifer status. I've been there and done it, but I don't personally think someone has to do that to be "hardcore".
To me, and based on everything I've seen in the last few decades of gaming, your rigid 40+ hours of gaming easily qualifies you in the hardcore category. A casual is someone who plays for a few hours a day, a few days a week. I'd say no more than 10-15 hours a week but there's obviously no official statistic for such a thing.
There are gamers with disabilities that use games like this to escape the pain and everyday depression (among many other reasons), labelling anyone who plays for those hours a "basement dwelling, neckbeard" is displaying a lack of awareness and general understanding of gamers.
Hardly, man. It was mostly a joke, considering I said right afterwards "I've been there and done it" for good reason, and at times less responsible ones... and really, pointing out the exception to the rule doesn't overthrow it: that many hours in video games daily is not good for average person. Point being, that kind of play time is beyond hardcore.
I don't disagree that more time = more opportunity in MMORPGs, but I've known plenty of players both older and younger that have spent countless hours on an MMO and have been less geared/less skilled/and less knowledgeable than someone who plays 15-30 hours a week. It all comes down to how YOU play the game.
I think if you're looking to progress in skill/items/levels quickly there are def guilds/groups of people out there that will enable you to do this (skilled 'hardcore' guilds). I know when I played VG/Rift it was night and day when it came to running dungeons and raids with experienced players vs ...well not so experienced players ;).
I work a lot more than when I played VG, so I know when Pantheon releases I wont be able to vest as much time into the game as I'd like. That sure as hell doesn't mean I wont be aiming to have a character with top tier gear. I will just have to find a guild that raids enough and has a schedule close enough to my own (if that's even possible with a retail/pharmacy manager job).
I think if you're a good player, and can work something out with your guild, you can become a top tier character even if you cant play hours on end. To anyone looking on the outside, amazing gear/skill=hardcore not hours logged.
Xeravik said:
I don't disagree that more time = more opportunity in MMORPGs, but I've known plenty of players both older and younger that have spent countless hours on an MMO and have been less geared/less skilled/and less knowledgeable than someone who plays 15-30 hours a week. It all comes down to how YOU play the game.
I think if you're looking to progress in skill/items/levels quickly there are def guilds/groups of people out there that will enable you to do this (skilled 'hardcore' guilds). I know when I played VG/Rift it was night and day when it came to running dungeons and raids with experienced players vs ...well not so experienced players ;).
I work a lot more than when I played VG, so I know when Pantheon releases I wont be able to vest as much time into the game as I'd like. That sure as hell doesn't mean I wont be aiming to have a character with top tier gear. I will just have to find a guild that raids enough and has a schedule close enough to my own (if that's even possible with a retail/pharmacy manager job).
I think if you're a good player, and can work something out with your guild, you can become a top tier character even if you cant play hours on end. To anyone looking on the outside, amazing gear/skill=hardcore not hours logged.
I overlooked this originally, but as a good example of what you just said I'll add it..
While AL and FoH were the definition of Hard Core, old world bosses were on a 7 day+/- 8 hour timer. If I killed Cazic & Inny today, I had to wait a week to kill them again. So, sure when they doing new content and figuring out to beat new encounters you would see them putting in a stupid amount of time. Once they entered the farming phase tho, you really only saw them based on spawn timers.
Some might be on line selling stuff in Freeport or tradeskilling, but the majority of them you only saw if there was a raid. They didn't play 10 - 12 hours a day all the time. They did however, have pretty much have a Zero-Tolerance policy for raiding. If a raid was called, you were there and they could (and did on several occasions) call raids 24 hours a day. I remember once, I want to say Emperor of Ssara (spelling?), the encounter was giving everyone trouble and I talking across all the servers. Months they spent trying to beat it. 3 o'clock in the morning 1 of the FoH members thinks he's figured it out. Calls the RL they talk it over, call the Guild leader and in 30 min had a full raid in zone, ready to go and got yet another World first.
Again, IF Aradune and Joppa come anywhere close to what EQ was in the beginning, what your going to see is that the line between what the #1 and #2 World guilds do, how they accomplish it, what their commitment level is to being # 1 or 2 and what the rest of do is quite stark.
Xeravik said:
I don't disagree that more time = more opportunity in MMORPGs, but I've known plenty of players both older and younger that have spent countless hours on an MMO and have been less geared/less skilled/and less knowledgeable than someone who plays 15-30 hours a week. It all comes down to how YOU play the game.
I think if you're looking to progress in skill/items/levels quickly there are def guilds/groups of people out there that will enable you to do this (skilled 'hardcore' guilds). I know when I played VG/Rift it was night and day when it came to running dungeons and raids with experienced players vs ...well not so experienced players ;).
I work a lot more than when I played VG, so I know when Pantheon releases I wont be able to vest as much time into the game as I'd like. That sure as hell doesn't mean I wont be aiming to have a character with top tier gear. I will just have to find a guild that raids enough and has a schedule close enough to my own (if that's even possible with a retail/pharmacy manager job).
I think if you're a good player, and can work something out with your guild, you can become a top tier character even if you cant play hours on end. To anyone looking on the outside, amazing gear/skill=hardcore not hours logged.
I agree.
While it is very easy to point at hours played as a measure of hardcore or casual - that measurement ultimately fails because there are very casual players who spend countless hours in a virtual world, and very hardcore players who spend relatively conservative hours in that same world. It is certainly true though that there are harcore players spending massive amounts of time in games.
In the end - the divide truly is WHAT you do when you play, not how long you play.
I would also say though, that "hardcore" and "top end" are not necessarily linked. Hardcore players are those who pursue some aspect of the game with focus and dedication. You could do nothing but crafting for instance once you hit max level... deciding to devote everything you do to that. You spend out of game time researching crafting... you spend your in game time hunting common and rare components... you seek out the rarest of recipes... you master every in game skill that will enhance your ability to craft...
By playing in that way, you are playing in a "hardcore" way.
This is basically what hardcore raiders are doing - they are focusing every aspect of their game on being able to do the next content. Getting better gear, working specific factions, mastering their player abilities, etc... all toward conquering whatever is next.
For sure, this approach to a game is more commonly thought of as "hardcore" than any other - but it isn't that actual type of content that makes the player hardcore - it is, as I said, their intent, drive, and follow through toward some aspect of the game that makes them hardcore.
Wandidar said:you spend your in game time hunting common and rare components... you seek out the rarest of recipes... you master every in game skill that will enhance your ability to craft...
By playing in that way, you are playing in a "hardcore" way.
Kinda, but to say "out of game time researching " misses the point. You can only research what someone else found, same with quests. 99% of player go to a spoiler site, look up a quest or recipe, but (again assuming Pantheon wiil follow a more original EQFormat) there wont be "!" over the quest npc's head. Someone will have to npc to npc "Hail"ing them to find a quest. They wont know for what (read reward) untill they complete it or sit combining random items untill they find a combination that works. That's the kind of difference I'm talking about.
I just don't want to see a situation like games have been in for the past decade.. where you think a game might be fun, maybe it is but its so short that you get to max level and experience everything the game has to offer in about a week, then you just quit. It's not even a lack of content as much as it is that players simply are allowed to progress too quickly.
If I can play Pantheon 6-8 hours a day 7 days a week (my normal schedule, seasonal work farming) for the entire time until the first expansion releases and never run out of ways to progress my character and my guild, then Pantheon will be good for me.
Castwell...the wizard... brings up a good point and I think differentiates the subtle difference between "hardcore" vs time spent. Sort of like "all cognac's are brandies, but not all brandies are cognacs", I interpret Castwell's nuance along the same lines: all Hardcore players spend alot of time on line, but not all players that spend alot of time on line are hardcore.
When I started playing ,I had a steady job with regular hours(a 9-5'er) and during the week, I may have played 3-4 out of the 5 week days, with longer times on the weekends. On those 3-4 week nights maybe at most 2-3 hours, because of getting home, dinner, fussing a bit, logging in and getting to bed at a fairly descent time for the next day. I was able to meet and group with people in other small guilds/groups and one person informally organized an "instant army" to help with epics. It grew into a raiding group, and we did epics on Wed - sometimes 3 fights depending on time and location and raided on Sat eve for a good 4 hours or so- depending. I think we added another Raid on Sunday afternoons but we considered ourselves "casual" raiders. The epic fights were fun because we would fight and die and win! and then say "k, so-and-so, loot your piece" and then rez up and run-run-run! - quick! to the next one!. The raids were more serious.
But this thread brings in some salient points, especially, for the- Adult, job-holding, raiding, responsible, niche, serious, nostalgic, casual, player. And the only reason I say casual because I have to clean the apartment and do laundry right now but you better believe I am a hard core raider!, I show up on time and you'll see me when I log in when i come back from the movie.
When I had tons of hours to play, I was both hard core *and* casual , depending on what toon I played. I had characters in a couple high end raiding guilds and it was almost mandatory to be "hard core" in those guilds. I also had a couple unguilded characters I would just chill on. I would run around the world and buff people and powerlevel them. I mostly played those characters when time to play was short, or to unwind with.
I am not entirely sure what this thread is supposed to accomplish. To me it sounds like an attack on "hardcore" players/those that consider themselves such but I don't quite see why. Are you perhaps standing against efforts from other community members requesting longer time required for content?
Personally I don't think a game should be built around EITHER hard core OR casual and not both either, the game should be a world. If you have an epic quest, the quest should naturally be epic which may mean that it is too much time and effort for some to bother with. If you have an insanely powerful monster it should be so. If you have tasks fit for one it should be so and so on. I don't think we should be tied into the idea that each group needs to be catered to. That doesn't mean that we can't offer a variety of different things for different people but I hate this dividing line stuff.
Mephiles said:
I am not entirely sure what this thread is supposed to accomplish. To me it sounds like an attack on "hardcore" players/those that consider themselves such but I don't quite see why. Are you perhaps standing against efforts from other community members requesting longer time required for content?
Personally I don't think a game should be built around EITHER hard core OR casual and not both either, the game should be a world. If you have an epic quest, the quest should naturally be epic which may mean that it is too much time and effort for some to bother with. If you have an insanely powerful monster it should be so. If you have tasks fit for one it should be so and so on. I don't think we should be tied into the idea that each group needs to be catered to. That doesn't mean that we can't offer a variety of different things for different people but I hate this dividing line stuff.
I can help you with this.
The point is that if you never experienced what EQ 1, original, was and your saying "Oh, I'm so looking forward to this". You got no clue what you saying.
"Oh, I'm hard core", compared to what the Real "Hard Core" players of EQ 1 were, is ludicrous. What they did is almost mind numbing. I've tried to give examples of what people like Fires of Heaven and Afterlife did, but I guess I failed.
By today's standard, I was "hard core". But, I was there when "Hard Core" was real and I'm not that and I really don't know how to explain that IF it were not for the "Hard Core" players of guilds like Fires of Heaven and Afterlife, I couldn't have done any of the stuff I did in EQ.
Everything and I mean, EVERYTHING, tradeskills, quests or raids was only possible because of those people. You mighta done the same raid or quest, BUT you didn't do it blind. You had a stratagy (based of theirs), You knew what that quest reward was, because they did it first so you didn't have to do it blind and you damn sure didn't do it with the same crappy gear they did it with. Those people were truly amazing, when you look at what they did, the gear they had and with Zero info on how to do it.
There may be some here that know what I'm saying, but I really haven't seen that. Maybe, If they're here, they'll jump in and help me out cause I'd hate to think I'm the only one left from that era.
Does that help?
I played, and raided hardcore in EQ 1. I also raided many times with wake up calls at 2-4 am /or staying up all hours of the night to clear raid zones. So yes I know what you mean in terms of hardcore. I think what you are asking is do the newer gamers correlate with what it means to be "hardcore". As someone stated above I think in present day, hardcore represents being hardcore competitive. You make a commitment to achieve certain goals that other people have no desire to do. Such as your world firsts, quests, etc. There are still hardcore raiding guilds around in other games in terms of putting in the time to achieve those types of things, however the internet and the vast amount of resources as well as spoilers have taken away the purity of what EQ 1 had. So in terms of EQ 1 hardcore versus present day hardcore no there isn't any game that I have known to be like it or that will probably ever be like it. Those days are gone.
I do certainly hold out hope that Pantheon will be able to give us some of that feeling of being completely "blind" when we play though.
P.S. I had an EQ "bible" the only thing that wasn't in that bible that wasn't of my own work were the maps. Other then that I had no idea what in the hell was going on unless I wrote it down. Which is where part of the intrigue came in.
Thanks for adding Carrera! If you were part of FoH, AL or one of several top guilds of that time that I didn't call by name, mostly 'cause it's been too long for me to remember them all...
I salute and thank you for making the game I played possible.
Castwell said:
I can help you with this.
The point is that if you never experienced what EQ 1, original, was and your saying "Oh, I'm so looking forward to this". You got no clue what you saying.
"Oh, I'm hard core", compared to what the Real "Hard Core" players of EQ 1 were, is ludicrous. What they did is almost mind numbing. I've tried to give examples of what people like Fires of Heaven and Afterlife did, but I guess I failed.
By today's standard, I was "hard core". But, I was there when "Hard Core" was real and I'm not that and I really don't know how to explain that IF it were not for the "Hard Core" players of guilds like Fires of Heaven and Afterlife, I couldn't have done any of the stuff I did in EQ.
Everything and I mean, EVERYTHING, tradeskills, quests or raids was only possible because of those people. You mighta done the same raid or quest, BUT you didn't do it blind. You had a stratagy (based of theirs), You knew what that quest reward was, because they did it first so you didn't have to do it blind and you damn sure didn't do it with the same crappy gear they did it with. Those people were truly amazing, when you look at what they did, the gear they had and with Zero info on how to do it.
There may be some here that know what I'm saying, but I really haven't seen that. Maybe, If they're here, they'll jump in and help me out cause I'd hate to think I'm the only one left from that era.
Does that help?
Yeah, I think I understand better and largely agree with the sentiment. It never ceases to amaze me how quick everyone today freaks out because of a "massive grind!!!!!" which happened to be about 3 days of play... I question if people know what game they picked up when they start talking like that.
The best form of grind is the kind that is enjoyable to do both because combat has depth and isn't boring, and because the company you are playing with are good people and you enjoy interacting and conversing with them. If that is the case, as it was in EQ and no other game since IMO, then it doesn't matter how long the grind is because you will enjoy it perpetually. That is why a pay to play model works for games that can deliver that experience, because you can never get enough of it and as long as they hold true to that philosophy people will pay for it forever.
Castwell said:
The point is that if you never experienced what EQ 1, original, was and your saying "Oh, I'm so looking forward to this". You got no clue what you saying."Oh, I'm hard core", compared to what the Real "Hard Core" players of EQ 1 were, is ludicrous. What they did is almost mind numbing. I've tried to give examples of what people like Fires of Heaven and Afterlife did, but I guess I failed.
The best example of hardcore in EQ1 lore is FoH killing Lord Inquisitor Seru and Emperor Sshraezza before all of that got watered down, when you had to have a guild full of master tradeskillers and dedicated farmers to get the mats for the shissar and seru bane weapons. That grind, plus the grind of getting a guild full of Vex Thal keys before SOE had even finished Vex Thal (which was one of Furor's best rants at SOE ever, btw)...that was hardcore.
My best friend was in one of the world top guilds in EQ1 and at one point was one of the top 3 in his class across all servers. He would play every single day for 6-8 hours, and go 4-6 weeks without a single loot drop for himself, lots of regrinding exp from pushing the raid limits and dying a ton, and very very little personal reward. Him and 70+ other people. Mandatory attendance, DKP, performance reviews, etc. Basically, when the game is not only your second job, but requires more time and effort for less reward than your real job, then you're hardcore.
Playing casually 8 hours per day is not hardcore. Grinding your ass off 8 hours per day for a month so your guild's clerics can heal 1.3% better...that's hardcore. I played hardcore with an up and coming FoH-wannabe guild in 2003ish, and I lasted maybe 2 months before the stress + boredom + frustration got to me. Hardcore MMOing is soul killing.