I can tell you that currently, we have melee working from stamina, like you saw in the stream, every time you use an ability it costs stamina just like it would cost mana for a caster, I will have to leave it for a dev to explain more when they are ready as combat is something we are still working a lot on and I am not sure how much detail we can go into just yet, maybe this would be a good question for the next stream ;)
The need for melee to expend resources is critical for so many reasons. Not only does it make combat much more interesting and strategic, it creates a system to balance with melee versus caster, something that didn't exist in classic EQ. There was stamina loss, but it almost never came into play unless you were using a heavy weapon, and could easily be countered by any STA regen ability. Early on, that made having a melee much more useful in harder or longer engagements; especially raids. It also made melee combat mostly a mindless button mash without any need for decision making or resource conservation (of course, there weren't exactly many decisions/abilities back then though).
I would suggest that it not be just stamina if stamina is tied directly to things like running, jumping, climbing or anything else. That would create a conflict which would severely disadvantage melee. A separate bar like Energy would be better.
@Kilsin
Good deal - I appreciate the clarification. And I agree with Dullahan's point though and that I mentioned in my original post that I would like the added complexity of stamina plus endurance for melees (and stamina plus mana for casters). Maybe Hybrids have stamina endurance and mana? I hadn't thought of it from the penalty angle that melees would have if stamina is used for running/jumping like Dullahan said - but he raises a good point.
Anyway thanks again and I'm glad that it's at least being taken into consideration. The finer details can be ironed out in alpha/beta.
@Dullahan
I actually kind of like the idea of running, jumping, and climbing conflicting with combat resource usage. The consequence would be clear for melee classes, but perhaps they could introduce increased fizzle rates for low stamina casts if that would balance it out? It would at least make sense that casters would have a tougher time maintaining the perfect form for their fancy spells if they were out of breath. Just a thought.
Ainadak said:@Dullahan
I actually kind of like the idea of running, jumping, and climbing conflicting with combat resource usage. The consequence would be clear for melee classes, but perhaps they could introduce increased fizzle rates for low stamina casts if that would balance it out? It would at least make sense that casters would have a tougher time maintaining the perfect form for their fancy spells if they were out of breath. Just a thought.
Seems unnecessarily complicated, and impossible to balance. Negative effects from stamina should be applied across the board.
@Ainadak
I don't really think that's necessary either - you already have melee ability misses which would take endurance, and spell fizzles which would take mana. You wouldn't have spell "misses," most likely only resists, which would likely fall in line same idea that you may have reduced melee damage from Mob AC mitigation, defensive skills, or even glancing blows etc. (they had talked about different weapon types being better aganist certain mobs at some point - haven't heard anymore about that either). I'd fall more in line with Dullahan again on this one and I'd rather not overcomplicate it.
That's a reasonable response and I of course agree that it's unnecessary to include. From a resistances/misses standpoint it is redundant with other existing mechanics. I would like to see stamina used to add a layer (an unnecessary layer that you have the right to disagree with) into combat that would require people to trade off running/jumping/climbing with combat performance. I would like to see an end to unnecessary jumping around in combat and having archers/magicians fire off arrows/spells in a full sprint like it's no big deal. A small issue, but one that I stand by.
@Ainadak
I see your point, but I think as Pantheon will be tab based versus action combat based, you will see a lot less of the running around, jumping, etc. during combat. I agree I didn't like the jumping around and Spamming of AoE's etc. in games like WoW either.
Now, with PvP, I could see where having to weigh what you're discussing would make a more significant impact. Also, if running over time drained stamina which was also needed for spell usage etc., I could see it adversely gameplay techniques such as kiting as well. Now, that would be a different forum topic altogether whether reducing kiting would be a pro/con.
And, I think just based off Brad's comments in the past on these boards, you can rest your fears of people casting most spells full sprint. There has been previous discussion on these forums that stated some spells would require you to be stationary, while others you could cast and move, but your movement speed would be slowed during it, and others you could be full speed. See the following forum link for details:
http://pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1938/kiting-and-moving-while-casting
Anyway, I'm drifting off-topic, but I don't think we disagree all that much.
Amsai said:@Raidan
....
Of course I know its a different genre, but Dark Souls is very resource management heavy. Swing with abandon all you want but then get one shotted because you pissed away your stamina lol.
If we had combat for melee anywhere near to as engaging as the Dark Souls franchise I would marvel. Even if it were dumbed down to a Witcher3 level I'd be very impressed.
A number of mechanics would probably need to be rethought: the first mechanic that would need alot of thinking is aggro. If your tank is blocking dodging and a lot he is not generating aggro by hitting therefore, dodge and block would need to be aggro generating themselves.
However I'm confident this will not be the case and active combat like that will not exist, this is based off of what i have seen on the twitch streams.
Yeah, Dark Souls has one of the best combat systems of any game I've ever played, ever. However, it's kind of incompatible in some ways with Pantheon because Pantheon just isn't that kind of game. Dodges are determined by dice rolls, not physical movement, as much as I dislike that.
As for more the topic of this thread, I'm not really a fan of the idea of melee requiring resource management that's practically identical to casters. It feels like it'd homogenize the game a lot if your melee attacks are essentially glorified spells with melee animations used at a short range.
I'd hope that stamina/endurance/whatever is a more rapidly recovering resource than mana.
Liav said:Yeah, Dark Souls has one of the best combat systems of any game I've ever played, ever. However, it's kind of incompatible in some ways with Pantheon because Pantheon just isn't that kind of game. Dodges are determined by dice rolls, not physical movement, as much as I dislike that.
As for more the topic of this thread, I'm not really a fan of the idea of melee requiring resource management that's practically identical to casters. It feels like it'd homogenize the game a lot if your melee attacks are essentially glorified spells with melee animations used at a short range.
I'd hope that stamina/endurance/whatever is a more rapidly recovering resource than mana.
I don't at all agree that just because they have resources it somehow homogenizes them into being a caster with different animations.
There's some pretty big distinctions between melee and caster, even if they're reliant on resource like energy. One, their attacks are more position dependent and closer proximity to the mob. They are also usually nearly instantaneous. They also have auto attack which will account for a large portion of their damage, though I think that too should tie into resources to a lesser degree.
Their attacks are generally more physical based, in either a damage or defensive capacity, so casters will likely still have more of those traditional forms of utility (this is of course assuming they go the more traditional route). This is really the thing that differentiates casters from melee. In new games, they've done away with the roles so now every class basically has magical powers and utility that used to be caster or hybrid specific. As long as they don't overlap those kinds of abilities into general melee, that shouldn't be an issue.
Dullahan said:I don't at all agree that just because they have resources it somehow homogenizes them into being a caster with different animations.
There's some pretty big distinctions between melee and caster, even if they're reliant on resource like energy. One, their attacks are more position dependent and closer proximity to the mob. They are also usually nearly instantaneous. They also have auto attack which will account for a large portion of their damage, though I think that too should tie into resources to a lesser degree. Their attacks are generally be more physical based, in either a damage or defensive capacity, so casters will likely still have more of those traditional forms of utility (this is of course assuming they go the more traditional route).
Depends, in EQ2 both melee (Combat Arts) and spells shared the same resource pool. Melee attacks had cast times associated with them just like spells. Positionals and shorter range were about the only practical difference between the two.
I agree about auto attack but if I'm not mistaken, weren't you an advocate for ranged form of auto attack for casters? I can't remember, but I remember there was a thread about that at one point.
Maybe it won't end up homogenizing things. Who knows. It actually worked fine in EQ2.
Liav said:Dullahan said:I don't at all agree that just because they have resources it somehow homogenizes them into being a caster with different animations.
There's some pretty big distinctions between melee and caster, even if they're reliant on resource like energy. One, their attacks are more position dependent and closer proximity to the mob. They are also usually nearly instantaneous. They also have auto attack which will account for a large portion of their damage, though I think that too should tie into resources to a lesser degree. Their attacks are generally be more physical based, in either a damage or defensive capacity, so casters will likely still have more of those traditional forms of utility (this is of course assuming they go the more traditional route).
Depends, in EQ2 both melee (Combat Arts) and spells shared the same resource pool. Melee attacks had cast times associated with them just like spells. Positionals and shorter range were about the only practical difference between the two.
I agree about auto attack but if I'm not mistaken, weren't you an advocate for ranged form of auto attack for casters? I can't remember, but I remember there was a thread about that at one point.
Maybe it won't end up homogenizing things. Who knows. It actually worked fine in EQ2.
Yes I was, and I edited my post to elaborate a little further. Basically, the main defining factors are the skill sets of melee versus caster. If the melee realm revolves more around damage dealing and prevention, with maybe positional abilities, and a few bleeds, stuns and short-term impairment effects, it allows them to be very different from casters. It's really more about the abilities than the resources, is what I'm getting at. Even if melee were to have auto attack via wands etc (which I still believe they should have in some form), this would still make them very different within more traditional roles.
This is why in EQ1 things like punch and kick for Monks, backstab for rogues, taunt and bash for warriors DO NOT require consuming endurance from the endurance pool. The value melee characters bring is that they can auto attack indefnitely.
The only time the endurance pool is consumed is when disciplines are used. (weapon shield, defensive, mighty strike, etc)
If ALL common melee actions, including taunt, punch, kick, backstab, bash, slam, etc are going to consume endurance, then melee will have the same resource, regen, and pool issues to contend with as Casters will. Their resource bar won't be mana, it'll be endurance. A PC performing their role as tank, dps, heal or CC, regardless of class, will all have very set limits regarding how long they can be in combat, if every taunt consumes a fixed percentage of the endurance pool.
This is a disconcerting design decision, if true. It will become increasingly difficult to balance as class envy will drive endurance regen to have the same issues as mana regen, which turns melee into casters with better AC and combat evasion and mitigation. If casters get auto attack, then the balance pendulum swings the other way, and melee will need extremely powerful aggro management tools. Casting times are very long (6 seconds+) and mana consumption rates are very high in the videos thus far. In a genre where casting times get LONGER and mana consumption goes HIGHER as you level up, ... well, let's just say I'm sure they're not done with this yet, or they are hoping for hundred instead of thousands of players in their target demographic. ;)
In a previous post in this thread, a link to another thread about casting and moving was linked. In that thread I read about having an equivalent resource to 'focus' for melee. this would affect chance to hit, disarm, evade.
Perhaps it could be interesting to consider a STA thresholds that affect dodge/evade/skill hit ratings. If Auto attack reduced STA, longer battles would require support classes to keep STA up as well as HP, in order to mantain the effectiveness of mellee.
The downside being, melee heavy groups would be at a considerable disadvantage.
Just so we're clear on terminology, these are the primary stats they've shown thus far: (as of 20160908)
STR
STA
AGI
DEX
CON
WIS
INT
CHA
It seems unlikely Stamina would be used as a resource pool as well as a primary stat. And CON is in there too, and sometimes used for things like resist checks, hit points, carry weight, and other things, depending on your game mechanics/systems. Only reason I bring this up is I don't think using the term STA to refer to both a resource pool and primary stat is accurate, even while theorycrafting or speculating with the available information.
Dullahan said:Liav said:Dullahan said:I don't at all agree that just because they have resources it somehow homogenizes them into being a caster with different animations.
There's some pretty big distinctions between melee and caster, even if they're reliant on resource like energy. One, their attacks are more position dependent and closer proximity to the mob. They are also usually nearly instantaneous. They also have auto attack which will account for a large portion of their damage, though I think that too should tie into resources to a lesser degree. Their attacks are generally be more physical based, in either a damage or defensive capacity, so casters will likely still have more of those traditional forms of utility (this is of course assuming they go the more traditional route).
Depends, in EQ2 both melee (Combat Arts) and spells shared the same resource pool. Melee attacks had cast times associated with them just like spells. Positionals and shorter range were about the only practical difference between the two.
I agree about auto attack but if I'm not mistaken, weren't you an advocate for ranged form of auto attack for casters? I can't remember, but I remember there was a thread about that at one point.
Maybe it won't end up homogenizing things. Who knows. It actually worked fine in EQ2.
Yes I was, and I edited my post to elaborate a little further. Basically, the main defining factors are the skill sets of melee versus caster. If the melee realm revolves more around damage dealing and prevention, with maybe positional abilities, and a few bleeds, stuns and short-term impairment effects, it allows them to be very different from casters. It's really more about the abilities than the resources, is what I'm getting at. Even if melee were to have auto attack via wands etc (which I still believe they should have in some form), this would still make them very different within more traditional roles.
I'd rather not see auto attacks be any significant source of damage from casters. It goes completely against what ranged mages are supposed to be. When I went back to the timelocked server on EQ2 it was absolutely horrible (in original EQ2 auto attacks were barely noticeable for casters, on time locked server the game had evolved to where they were a major part of their DPS). Groups were being made in a way so that wizards/conjurors/enchanters etc. were the primary beneficiaries of auto attack enhancements and that's just wrong. The idea might sound good in theory but as someone who has seen it live in a game, it removes the importance and identity of melee classes. Instead of swashbucklers/assassins/brigands etc getting those buffs, they would just stack 5 casters with a healer and buff the hell out of each other. If we're going to allow auto attacks to be part of the identity of casters, we might as well let tanks heal, healers tank, and melee/scout types cast spells. Doesen't sound like a good idea to me.
Another reason I like resources for melee is that it gives you more options. Some abilities obviously need cooldowns, but I think games have become too cooldown driven. This leads to ability rotations. When your abilities are tied to resources, you have the option of using certain abilities more often to temporarily boost damage. Combat then becomes a series of decisions based on what is going on, rather than just an optimal series of abilities based on client determined cooldowns.
Dullahan said:Another reason I like resources for melee is that it gives you more options. Some abilities obviously need cooldowns, but I think games have become too cooldown driven. This leads to ability rotations. When your abilities are tied to resources, you have the option of using certain abilities more often to temporarily boost damage. Combat then becomes a series of decisions based on what is going on, rather than just an optimal series of abilities based on client determined cooldowns.
You're not wrong, but it also leads to the emergent behavior of wiping/dying far more often if you don't have constant damage output that isn't tied to a resource pool. This leads players to be incredibly overcautious rather than pushing your limits, as a group. This has the trickle down effect of requiring redundant or powerful crowd control, just to adventure "normally". In short, you need to mez & med, and everyone sits on their ass the entire fight, rather than.. you know... fighting. :)
To expound on the theory of EQ's invigor spell that was pretty useless after whatever point. I did like the idea in skyrim in the restoration tree, your heals could heal endurance. It could be argued that a healer of sufficient skill, could learn to cast very refreshing heals. You already have a class that can regen mana, why not have a class that can regen endurance.