So I was listening to the latest roundtable discussion (by the way, thanks Devs!), and Brad brought up the fact that they wouldn't go with a binding system for items, or use it as sparingly as possible. Instead he made mention to sacrificing items to the gods and making weapons and armor more useful to retain for specialized purposes. It seemed to me like he was insinuating that people didn't like bound items, and I was kind of shocked. Binding items seems like a very simple, natural way to get items out of the market. I agree it is a little OoC, but it is also not overly convoluted. Anyway, being new to the forums, I was curious how others felt. And if they didn't like bound items, why and what other systems are they more partial to and why?
Personally, despite enjoying the binding system, I also like the idea of a durability system. How that might work is different rarity levels would have different amounts of durability with legendary items having an incredibly amount and lower level items having much less. The durability of the item would be roughly linked to the rarity of the drop and/or spawn of the monster. You could pace it out so items wouldn't last too much longer than the time it took to get the next item as you were leveling. Therefore, if you used a weapon, you wouldn't have much cause to pass it down to your ult or on to another player. This system would mirror the real world system of how when you buy an item it quickly loses value. Of course, you could work a repair system into the mix, which would allow you to repair an item to half, or some such. This is the just the seed of a slightly more complex system.
I do have some concerns about an incentive systems. I worry it will be much harder to police and balance. If I can melt down my Doomslayer +5 for a week-long stat buff, I probably won't do it if I can make a lot of money on the weapon; however, if those buffs are so good that I'll sacrifice making money on the item, I'm probably going to have to become a legit killing machine. Now, if everyone is a legit killing machine, as I assume they will be if those buffs are that good, then I might not need a group or a very large group to tackle a lot of content. (I think that takes us away from our objective.) I also recon no matter how great you make those buffs, they will always only sink low quality items. Call me blind, but I don't see how I'd be willing to part with my Doomslayer +5 for much less than a fortune or a brokenly powerful buff. And that means that the value of good items will go down (as they slowly stockpile in the market) while the value of bad items will go up (as they remain rare due to low numbers in circulation) unit the bad quality items and good quality items are selling for a similar price.
I agree with everything you have said, but I think what they meant, is they don't want to rely SOLEY on bound items, and they want more of an open ended situation, where you decide what to do with old armor.
You may want to keep your Doomslayer, or toy with the idea of having water breathing bestowed on you, for half a moon. Or you feel less encumbered and can carry more weigh than normal, etc.
Additionally, I am sure many items will be "No Drop" in Pantheon. Just not predominately.
I like the idea of allowing you, the player (or ME the player!) the opportunity to take an item out of the game world by CHOICE as much as possible, rather than by FORCE.
Meaning, I'd rather there be as little bind on equip or bind on pick up as possible. There are clearly notable exceptions... high end raid loot, etc... for an example.
However - being able to choose what to do with your loot has impacts beyond economic. I've told this story here before:
When I was a new / young ranger, I got a tell one evening out of the blue... "Stay where you are Wandidar, I have something for you" or something like that - sent from someone I had never met and didn't know.
Well - this unknown someone was a higher level ranger... who dropped off stuff way above my ability to get - to help me on my way. And when I asked how I could repay him? He simply said "pay it forward" - and so I did for a LONG time (until I'd go back and have trouble finding an actual new player and not all twinks).
And when I did do that - and they also asked me how they could repay me... I'd say the same thing to them: "Pay it forward"
And so - the CHOICE of being able to do what you want with old gear also can impact game community.
The tribute system they are talking about (been done in other games) is a good one... as it gives you yet another choice of something to do with your gear. Maybe you give some away. Maybe you sell some at market. Maybe you destroy some as tribute to get a benefit. Your (or MY!) choice.
I hate hate hate hate hate hate! Soulbound/bind on equip or any other system that forces me to sell my gear to a vendor or toss it away. I'm a good hearted person and I believe in giving back to the community when I can. If I see a new player and I have an old piece of armor that could help him or her on their way... then I will most likely give it to them. They can implement systems where they can't fully use the weapon until X level, though don't make it so I can't even give it to them.
I also don't think you are taking into consideration all the horders that play these games. There are tons of people that save those items for their lower level chars, though there are also some that just horde items to horde them. Give them enough bank/bag space and they will keep everything they pick up lol.
I don't think EQ had the wrong idea here and the rare items seem to always be in demand. I think they did it right in making the items rare enough that they will be sought after for years due to the horders, alts, and people leaving the game.
I'm not sure which I dislike more... instant teleporters or bound gear... lol
Wandidar said:
I like the idea of allowing you, the player (or ME the player!) the opportunity to take an item out of the game world by CHOICE as much as possible, rather than by FORCE.
Meaning, I'd rather there be as little bind on equip or bind on pick up as possible. There are clearly notable exceptions... high end raid loot, etc... for an example.
However - being able to choose what to do with your loot has impacts beyond economic. I've told this story here before:
When I was a new / young ranger, I got a tell one evening out of the blue... "Stay where you are Wandidar, I have something for you" or something like that - sent from someone I had never met and didn't know.
Well - this unknown someone was a higher level ranger... who dropped off stuff way above my ability to get - to help me on my way. And when I asked how I could repay him? He simply said "pay it forward" - and so I did for a LONG time (until I'd go back and have trouble finding an actual new player and not all twinks).
And when I did do that - and they also asked me how they could repay me... I'd say the same thing to them: "Pay it forward"
And so - the CHOICE of being able to do what you want with old gear also can impact game community.
The tribute system they are talking about (been done in other games) is a good one... as it gives you yet another choice of something to do with your gear. Maybe you give some away. Maybe you sell some at market. Maybe you destroy some as tribute to get a benefit. Your (or MY!) choice.
Sure, but I had that exact same experience in EQ2 with a piece of bindable equipment that a higher level had looted off something. You can still be generous with bindable equipment; it's not no-trade. It just means that it becomes a consumable item. That sort of system, or a similar system, seems like the only viable way sink items in my opinion.
I understand the view of wanting to give me choices, but I think binding only removes a single choice, Do I want to keep the item for one of my characters or do I want to try and sell it. It's not really that big of deal. I don't have the inventory to horde every piece of equipment that I might possible want for an ult later or friend on down the road. And honestly, if I did, I would get into the same kind of situation that crashed EQs economy in the beginning. It's when everyone has everything that they don't need anything.
Saphreal, I see your point and understand the need for item sinks, though not via binding. I like and could be open to the idea of something breaking over time, though it would be hard to comprehend that I spent months camping for an item only to have it break a month later after continuous use.
Niien said:
I hate hate hate hate hate hate! Soulbound/bind on equip or any other system that forces me to sell my gear to a vendor or toss it away. I'm a good hearted person and I believe in giving back to the community when I can. If I see a new player and I have an old piece of armor that could help him or her on their way... then I will most likely give it to them. They can implement systems where they can't fully use the weapon until X level, though don't make it so I can't even give it to them.
I also don't think you are taking into consideration all the horders that play these games. There are tons of people that save those items for their lower level chars, though there are also some that just horde items to horde them. Give them enough bank/bag space and they will keep everything they pick up lol.
I don't think EQ had the wrong idea here and the rare items seem to always be in demand. I think they did it right in making the items rare enough that they will be sought after for years due to the horders, alts, and people leaving the game.
I'm not sure which I dislike more... instant teleporters or bound gear... lol
Wait, what, are we talking about the same thing? Why would you sell a bindable item to a vendor? You would sell it to a player for good money, give it to a friend in need, or keep it for an alt--or use it. It just makes items consumables. BY the way, EQ1 was just a mess of half bindable half non bindable items. EQ2 was a much better experience. Look at Diablo. I can't believe a triple A game such as that would make such a huge mistake as not having bindable items or durability (that would lead to complete destruction). Despite what people think, I believe that is the principle reason why the market crashed, and one of the big reasons, they ended up removing it. You could just watch great items slowly drop in value almost by the day as people started selling them for the second or third time.
Niien said:
Saphreal, I see your point and understand the need for item sinks, though not via binding. I like and could be open to the idea of something breaking over time, though it would be hard to comprehend that I spent months camping for an item only to have it break a month later after continuous use.
I think if it took months to get, it would have to take that or longer to break. Two months to get, six months to break. You could, I suppose, also do something with epic weapons, which you may retain for a year or more, being no-trade and thus having no durability. Then you could layer on these sinks, such as item sacrifice, etc, and they would be even more compelling because nobody wants to buy a really damaged item.
Saphreal said:
Niien said:
I hate hate hate hate hate hate! Soulbound/bind on equip or any other system that forces me to sell my gear to a vendor or toss it away. I'm a good hearted person and I believe in giving back to the community when I can. If I see a new player and I have an old piece of armor that could help him or her on their way... then I will most likely give it to them. They can implement systems where they can't fully use the weapon until X level, though don't make it so I can't even give it to them.
I also don't think you are taking into consideration all the horders that play these games. There are tons of people that save those items for their lower level chars, though there are also some that just horde items to horde them. Give them enough bank/bag space and they will keep everything they pick up lol.
I don't think EQ had the wrong idea here and the rare items seem to always be in demand. I think they did it right in making the items rare enough that they will be sought after for years due to the horders, alts, and people leaving the game.
I'm not sure which I dislike more... instant teleporters or bound gear... lol
Wait, what, are we talking about the same thing? Why would you sell a bindable item to a vendor? You would sell it to a player for good money, give it to a friend in need, or keep it for an alt--or use it. It just makes items consumables. BY the way, EQ1 was just a mess of half bindable half non bindable items. EQ2 was a much better experience. Look at Diablo. I can't believe a triple A game such as that would make such a huge mistake as not having bindable items or durability (that would lead to complete destruction). Despite what people think, I believe that is the principle reason why the market crashed, and one of the big reasons, they ended up removing it. You could just watch great items slowly drop in value almost by the day as people started selling them for the second or third time.
When you say "bindable item", I'm referring to the magical pants that can't be removed from my butt and given to someone else, though they can magically find their way into one of my 10 bagpacks or be given to a banker.... As long as that banker isn't going to try to wear them.
I believe we have a little miscommunication and most likely on my part. Anything I pick up that I can't give to someone else is something I don't like. I understand the need for high end raid items, though even that should have a limit. If we keep the story going along with the levels with expansion packs... those older items will lose value anyways to be replaced by new and better ones at some point in time. Though one item from the original game may still be best in slot for two expansions in where it's finally replaced with another item.
What about the item is No drop but to remove that you can sacrifice a stat bonus or proc
BP of Uberness
10 str
10 cha
10 con
10 dex
clicky effect 100 hp buff (5 min recast)
Its No Drop but you can sac a bonus (10 cha) and make it tradeable, but it then becomes No Drop again
to trade it once more you can sac the clicky effect...etc etc so as the more its passed around the weaker it is until its just vendor trash or tribute fodder...that way you can twink but still help avoid mudflation
Sevens said:
What about the item is No drop but to remove that you can sacrifice a stat bonus or proc
BP of Uberness
10 str
10 cha
10 con
10 dex
clicky effect 100 hp buff (5 min recast)
Its No Drop but you can sac a bonus (10 cha) and make it tradeable, but it then becomes No Drop again
to trade it once more you can sac the clicky effect...etc etc so as the more its passed around the weaker it is until its just vendor trash or tribute fodder...that way you can twink but still help avoid mudflation
That's similar to an idea I've toyed with over the years. I like the combination of the idea where you can pass an item down, but still get it out of the economy. The item will still be better than the person you are giving it to has... but worse than what a person who really wants that item on level is actually looking for (i.e. if I want the sarnak emblazoned tabard, I want it at its full glory - not a watered down version... but if I'm giving that item to someone to help them on their way, a watered down tabard is still awesome).
Ultimately - the passing down puts that item on a crash course toward "out of the economy"
There are two items of concern:
1) Some guilds in EQ (mine did) used gear passing to strengthen their guild. Meaning, if the guild MT got a new BP, he passed his old BP on to the guilds second tank.
2) Discounting item 1 above, I don't think stats should deteriorate if you never put the item on. Meaning, if you get a drop and simply decide to sell it - you should be able to sell it at full power.
In the 2nd instance just make the item Bind on equip not pick up...so now you loot it you can sell at full strength or equip and start the countdown
For the first concern....maybe a check on items to mark them as "Guild property" and as long as the item is passed in guild its safe...not only would this solve that problem but also the drama of someone getting geared up just to drop a guild and join the next higher guild on the uber ladder rung. Eventually an officer can remove the guild property tag and the item can then be sold at reduced strenght (sac'ing one stat buff)
Sevens said:
What about the item is No drop but to remove that you can sacrifice a stat bonus or proc
BP of Uberness
10 str
10 cha
10 con
10 dex
clicky effect 100 hp buff (5 min recast)
Its No Drop but you can sac a bonus (10 cha) and make it tradeable, but it then becomes No Drop again
to trade it once more you can sac the clicky effect...etc etc so as the more its passed around the weaker it is until its just vendor trash or tribute fodder...that way you can twink but still help avoid mudflation
That's interesting.
Niien said:
Saphreal said:
Niien said:
I hate hate hate hate hate hate! Soulbound/bind on equip or any other system that forces me to sell my gear to a vendor or toss it away. I'm a good hearted person and I believe in giving back to the community when I can. If I see a new player and I have an old piece of armor that could help him or her on their way... then I will most likely give it to them. They can implement systems where they can't fully use the weapon until X level, though don't make it so I can't even give it to them.
I also don't think you are taking into consideration all the horders that play these games. There are tons of people that save those items for their lower level chars, though there are also some that just horde items to horde them. Give them enough bank/bag space and they will keep everything they pick up lol.
I don't think EQ had the wrong idea here and the rare items seem to always be in demand. I think they did it right in making the items rare enough that they will be sought after for years due to the horders, alts, and people leaving the game.
I'm not sure which I dislike more... instant teleporters or bound gear... lol
Wait, what, are we talking about the same thing? Why would you sell a bindable item to a vendor? You would sell it to a player for good money, give it to a friend in need, or keep it for an alt--or use it. It just makes items consumables. BY the way, EQ1 was just a mess of half bindable half non bindable items. EQ2 was a much better experience. Look at Diablo. I can't believe a triple A game such as that would make such a huge mistake as not having bindable items or durability (that would lead to complete destruction). Despite what people think, I believe that is the principle reason why the market crashed, and one of the big reasons, they ended up removing it. You could just watch great items slowly drop in value almost by the day as people started selling them for the second or third time.
When you say "bindable item", I'm referring to the magical pants that can't be removed from my butt and given to someone else, though they can magically find their way into one of my 10 bagpacks or be given to a banker.... As long as that banker isn't going to try to wear them.
I believe we have a little miscommunication and most likely on my part. Anything I pick up that I can't give to someone else is something I don't like. I understand the need for high end raid items, though even that should have a limit. If we keep the story going along with the levels with expansion packs... those older items will lose value anyways to be replaced by new and better ones at some point in time. Though one item from the original game may still be best in slot for two expansions in where it's finally replaced with another item.
Yeah, I think "no-drop" items are useful only for epic-line weapons and armor, etc. What I'm talking about is you get an item, you can equip that item, and only you can use it from then on, or you can give that item to someone else, and they can equip it and only use it from then on. Eventually, they will get a better item, and destroy, sell to a vendor, or sacrifice that old item. I think it's a pretty fair system, and doesn't detract overly from the game, but it does put a great damper on inflation. You basically make everything in the game a consumable. But, like I said, I favor a durability system, probably with those epic "no-trade" items having unlimited durability. This durability would not be like we have commonly experienced before in many games. It's not going to break in a day or a week, unless junk gear, but it would break down at about twice the time, or maybe a little more, it took to get that item. If you devs tweaked the numbers, I'm sure they could find a happy medium where you can still trade down items, but they only last for lets say one more users. Now, another idea, if you don't mind staying with the bind system would be to have items account bind, or you could have a finite number of binds depending on the quality of the item. A really good, hard to find item, might have three or four binds, a normal item might just have two. But I'm a big believer in these kinds of hard sinks before we get into optional ones. If we have both, are economy will be very stable. The problem is we are making mass amounts of everything out of nothing.
Items have to leave the game on masse (thats means as many must leave as added) or the economy is sunk from day 1. If every looted sword, every crafted sword is left in game before long there is no reason to kill for a sword or craft one.
Think about this please:
Crafters make 1000 tier1 swords in 5 months time plus those are added to the 1000 looted, new player joins the game, decides to craft, oh wait he can buy any one of the 2000 swords used by 17 different toons for a few silvers still in the game.
Yes that is an over simplification, but it will devestate the economy, or any chance of. Everything added must have an exit at some point, this is not real life.
Before long why craft? why quest? I can just grind away and buy it, or hand it down toon after toon after toon after toon, this is bad bad bad.
Ok, now that I've been talking to people, I feel like double bindable items would be the best of all worlds! You could use them on your main or any of your alts. You could use them on your main, and then pass them down as a twink. You could give them to a friend. Or you could use them and then twink a friend. The only bar is from continuos circulation. It simple, elegant, the only problem is people have such a bad taste in their mouth from poorly done bindable items that they want to sell the whole idea off.
Limiting inventory space is preferable to any abundance of compulsory item binding. I don't take any issue with voluntary item binding. I also like the idea of long durability on everything, though I anticipate that many others would not.
CelevinMoongleam said:
Limiting inventory space is preferable to any abundance of compulsory item binding. I don't take any issue with voluntary item binding. I also like the idea of long durability on everything, though I anticipate that many others would not.
This isnt a discussion on durability and repair, that really is another whole discussiuon and there is a big thread on it in the crafting forums area.
Inventory space doesn't solve the item leaving the game, especially if they go with NPC vendors you can buy sold items from. I personally think NPC vendors should not be selling player sold items, again its a vehicle for items to leave the game
Niien said:
I hate hate hate hate hate hate! Soulbound/bind on equip or any other system that forces me to sell my gear to a vendor or toss it away. I'm a good hearted person and I believe in giving back to the community when I can. If I see a new player and I have an old piece of armor that could help him or her on their way... then I will most likely give it to them. They can implement systems where they can't fully use the weapon until X level, though don't make it so I can't even give it to them.
I also don't think you are taking into consideration all the horders that play these games. There are tons of people that save those items for their lower level chars, though there are also some that just horde items to horde them. Give them enough bank/bag space and they will keep everything they pick up lol.
I don't think EQ had the wrong idea here and the rare items seem to always be in demand. I think they did it right in making the items rare enough that they will be sought after for years due to the horders, alts, and people leaving the game.
I'm not sure which I dislike more... instant teleporters or bound gear... lol
This is a recipe for economic crash in any game. If every item that enters the game, stays, than drop crafting now, there is little point. Your idea will ensure a market saturation of items to a point where no one will need to quest, or make items, there will simply be anything one wants on a near by vendor or player seller, until the sellers stop because they will have to sell it for less than an NPC vendor, because every sword of the coolone ever looted will be either handed down, given to a friend or for sale on your local vendor with in a short period of time. So may as well not really make quests for items, past a short time they will be ignored, why work through one of Brad's awesome epic quest for that Sword of the Coolone, its right over here on a NPC vendor for a few gold.
New term Mud-deflation, the insurance that every item in the game is simply worth whatever an NPC will pay for it.
Saphreal said:
Sevens said:
What about the item is No drop but to remove that you can sacrifice a stat bonus or proc
BP of Uberness
10 str
10 cha
10 con
10 dex
clicky effect 100 hp buff (5 min recast)
Its No Drop but you can sac a bonus (10 cha) and make it tradeable, but it then becomes No Drop again
to trade it once more you can sac the clicky effect...etc etc so as the more its passed around the weaker it is until its just vendor trash or tribute fodder...that way you can twink but still help avoid mudflation
That's interesting.
Actually it is, but from an item tracking perspective it sounds like a possible nightmare. it means you will now have to have a unique version of every time for every poissible drop to be come tradable again. So thats 4 stats that can be drop in any order up to 4 times, so 4x4x4 items vs 1.
Niien said:I believe we have a little miscommunication and most likely on my part. Anything I pick up that I can't give to someone else is something I don't like. I understand the need for high end raid items, though even that should have a limit. If we keep the story going along with the levels with expansion packs... those older items will lose value anyways to be replaced by new and better ones at some point in time. Though one item from the original game may still be best in slot for two expansions in where it's finally replaced with another item.
This is also in my opinion a bad idea, trivialization of anything in a game is bad news. Everquest was terrible at this, man they did ths over and over and over than sat around whining that no one played the old content....I wonder? Two brain cells is all it should take to realize as soon as you make a new level 10 zone have better rewards than any other level 10 zone you have instantly trivialized every other level 10 zone.
If there is one thing that too many game devs suck at is itemization, and Silius was the worst, not only did he screw up Vanguard, he realyllmessed with EQ2 with his re-itemizations. Once you set the power levels of items at a certain level or tier, then you stick to it. You can make different items? yes sure can, however never ever ever make higher power items that you have set the itemization for.
In Vanguard we had item levels, so based on an itemization calculation, an item with certain bonuses, stats, effects, damage what ever was assigned a level. a level 10 sword should always follow the same itemization calculation, sure it can have different stats, different bonuses, abilties what ever, but never should a weapon with the same level be more or less powerful, they may be more or less useful to one class or another, but no different in power. Item rarity can effect this, so level 10 common, rare, very rare or epic would of course be different, but still all hold to the same itemization rule.
Trivialization is the bane of MMOs, and it needs to be well guarded against. EverQuest is the model to avoid at all costs. Planes of Power trivialized 75% of the game in one release, they removed the need for every racial city, paludal caverns removed the need for every zone from about level 10 to 40ish in the game with XP rates triple that of every zone in it's level range. Don't get me wrong some great fun zones in PoP, but they came at a tremendous cost to the game.
One more point, please do not think I do not want more level 10 zones after release, just the opposite, another one of my MMO beefs is the lack of continued content at all levels, I love content, add another group of zones/dungeons that will bring me from level 1 to 50 after release, and I will make another character JUST to see it! I had many characters in EQ just to ensure I enjoyed all the content, in Vanguard you could level 6 characters from 1 to the 40s and not once double up on content. I am a true content player, I do not play to level, I play to enjoy the content, levelling is a great bonus reward for that.
I agree with your arguments Exmortis. As Borumber noted above, Eve's economy is setup correctly. All of its phat loots have a finite lifespan. I also agree that crafting should not be bothered with unless item inflation is directly addressed. Eve accomplished much of the needed destruction by removing some items upon death. I can't see this being a popular approach, but I also can't see Pantheon outliving its predecessors unless items can be lost. I should have seen the truth of this long ago, as it is the obvious application of basic economics to the problem. You have totally flipped my thinking on this matter with your arguments. Double plus good, but a challenge still remains: The daunting task of convincing the developers and the potential consumers to follow the superior path. I'll even venture that it may be the single most important thing determining Eve's venerable longevity. There is little I would prefer over seeing Pantheon follow a similar path, but with a high fantasy setting.
I've said this on other posts in other threads - I am definitely NOT an expert on MMO economics... so I won't try to contribute on that front (although it's interesting reading).
I will just say that I really enjoy the community impact of being able to gift your old gear, or a drop you won't use, etc...
Whatever they do - I hope I will have the ability to do those things.