Let me add...
I wrote Columbus Nova as much for their benefit as for Pantheon's. They're investing in potential at SOE that no longer resides there. Granted, their PlanetSide2 and H1Z1 products are pretty strong, but the real long term potential and momentum that SOE gained was from the Everquest franchise. They did branch out successfully with other products, but obviously couldn't maintain the momentum in their primary product (which has the greatest potential due to product loyalty.. people will play a solid fantasy MMO for a decade where Planetside2 consumers will bolt when the next FPS comes out).
SOE has imploded...
The core context of what they stand for has long been gone and was a company riding on old legacies.
The mere fact there is not one video, animation, or picture of EverQuest Next illustrates this house was a mess... It has been over a year now, that many bought a product called EQ:Landmark. Which now has turned into it's own thing. When most who bought/funded Landmark... did so, because they wanted BETA access to EverQuest. Where is it..? They refuse to issue a statement of the state of EverQuest... and just point to shiny Landmark, as if to trying to trick us.
I know a good many Landmark patrons bored and irate.. wondering where EQ beta is..? John..?
Honestly, at this point you have to consider EverQuest Next as vaperware.
I bet Smed's team is finding they can't build a world, without a master story, or back drop or deeply entitled vision.. that SOE, even with new mechanics & graphics & physics engines can't find a compelling story, or there is still no meaning into his game. Saddening is, that Landmark is all EQ has to show for itself.
Due to the fact John Smedley only makes games, not worlds.
EQ/LOTR/SWG/Etc.. was about it's intellectual property, or rites to tell those stories.
Master game makers, makes a metaverse of "their vision".. and then allow others to have a long term story of fantasy to play out. That is why people were giving up their marriages and why EQ was labeled "EverCrack", was because you didn't want to close Brad McQuaid's book for the knight... (pun intended)
You wanted to keep reading the story... keep playing on..
SOE was not capable of that, because smed's propensity is as a business man, not a visionary, or lorekeeper. SONY was in a win/win situation here and took advantage of some investors...
Que... DAYBREAK... a new sunrise...!
That story^ is going to be a great one to read and watch.
I've already mentioned once that Brad undersold Verant (989). I truly believe that there would not have been a World of Warcraft... if Brad would've had full rein of SOE early on. All roads lead to Rome.
Hieromonk is correct about EQN being vaporware.
I have followed EQN closely since the original announcement about 18 months ago. It started with EQN being the real game and EQN Landmark being a free tech demo for testing the voxel system. 18 months later we have the following changes:
1) EQN Landmark has been renamed to Landmark the Game in an apparent attempt to separate the two.
2) Landmark has been fully monetized with both pay-to-play AND pay-to-win. You have to pay money to get access to the game, then you can buy in-game resources with real money. It is no longer the free tech demo that it was originally billed as.
3) Landmark's scope has been drastically increased to include PvP and PvE. And they keep adding new features.
It is obvious what is happening. EQN "proper" doesn't exist. Landmark is the real game and it is being milked on the promise of EQN which doesn't exist.
EQN was already dead, and now with this buyout of SoE it is even more dead.
I personally only ever followed EQN. I am not invested in any of their past games. For those who are invested in their past games the buyout might be a concern. But EQN is not worth worrying about. It's already dead.
I am going to go ahead and ask that people keep to the subject of this thread which is the news about SOE being acquired by Columbus Nova and will now operate as an independent game development studio known as Daybreak Game Company.
Brad has already asked that you not bash other gaming companies in other threads. Yes almost every gaming company has had missteps. But every gaming company also learns from each other to create the amazing games we have played. Its kinda cool when you think about it.
Totally agree Hieromonk. Everquest was the foundation that SOE was built upon. They tried to maintain that foundation but had no idea how to mix mortar, so the house slowly crumbled. One thing that Smedley and SOE couldn't grasp was what made Everquest, EverCrack.
- Money? - Everquest wasn't a high dollar production
- Marketing? - Everquest's early marketing was word of mouth for the most part
- Engine? - There.. wasn't one. In those days there weren't canned ragdoll libraries, for instance, that you could purchase and plug in.. it was raw.
- Ease of Play? - Nope.. there was nothing easy about a 6hr corpse recovery, or gaining a plat (I know, I was the first to gain a plat on Mithanial Marr after launch and I was famous)
- Easy Travel? - Nope, I gained that first plat by casting Invis/SeeInvis on groups as 'The Traveling Enchanter' all the way from Freeport to Qeynos.. I had a lucrative business
- Easy Rewards? - Anyone remember thinking a plain bronze breastplate made you uber?
- The right player base? - No, people coming in weren't all Epic Fantasy fans.. but they WERE after they came in.. due to a brilliant storyline and ambience. Their inner D&D geek was set free.. from the Grandmas to the Attorneys. People weren't kind to one another because they were of the same demographic.. it was because they weren't BORED... and they knew they needed others to survive and thrive.
- Caving to player demands? - Nope.. I bugged the hell out of Verant during EQ1 beta to make mezzing easier. They politely shut me down every time. Later, as I rocked a train, I would reflect on the fact that I'd gained a hard won PERSONAL SKILL that allowed me to keep a large crowd mezzed without looking at a clock, and.. this is import.. *not everyone could do it*.. they knew all along that what I saw as a curse was to be my reward
- Grand Appearances by the Producer? - It wasn't uncommon to have Aradune walk up to you and /say "Hey, wanna go to Guk?", he was one of us.. not sitting on his throne in the burning eye tower (cough)smed(cough)
Verant listened to our ideas and used the good stuff.. but the vision wasn't a democratic process. The challenge would create the magic.. and the magic wasn't granted. You really captured my long winded postulation in a single sentence Hieromonk:
"Due to the fact John Smedley only makes games, not worlds."
I dusted off the Guide folder in My Documents last night and was reading some of the Dynamic Quest scripts from those early days like 'Find the Enchanter', and 'House For Sale'! I remember those days, those people, those place.. like I remember real people and places. It's funny the things you can remember.. I remember my buddy Raadin dying to The Fabled Frenzied Ghoul in Guk from those days better than I can remember the boss that fired me or the woman that divorced me hahaha! THAT'S what makes a world!
You're right Zarriya.. I posted before I saw this (I was in formatting hell). I'm new here so I hope you'll forgive me. What you say rings true.
Zarriya said:
I am going to go ahead and ask that people keep to the subject of this thread which is the news about SOE being acquired by Columbus Nova and will now operate as an independent game development studio known as Daybreak Game Company.
Brad has already asked that you not bash other gaming companies in other threads. Yes almost every gaming company has had missteps. But every gaming company also learns from each other to create the amazing games we have played. Its kinda cool when you think about it.
Zarriya said:
I am going to go ahead and ask that people keep to the subject of this thread which is the news about SOE being acquired by Columbus Nova and will now operate as an independent game development studio known as Daybreak Game Company.
Brad has already asked that you not bash other gaming companies in other threads. Yes almost every gaming company has had missteps. But every gaming company also learns from each other to create the amazing games we have played. Its kinda cool when you think about it.
I was about to post the same thing. Thanks Zarriya.
Jitai said:
Totally agree Hieromonk. Everquest was the foundation that SOE was built upon. They tried to maintain that foundation but had no idea how to mix mortar, so the house slowly crumbled. One thing that Smedley and SOE couldn't grasp was what made Everquest, EverCrack.
- Money? - Everquest wasn't a high dollar production
- Marketing? - Everquest's early marketing was word of mouth for the most part
- Engine? - There.. wasn't one. In those days there weren't canned ragdoll libraries, for instance, that you could purchase and plug in.. it was raw.
- Ease of Play? - Nope.. there was nothing easy about a 6hr corpse recovery, or gaining a plat (I know, I was the first to gain a plat on Mithanial Marr after launch and I was famous)
- Easy Travel? - Nope, I gained that first plat by casting Invis/SeeInvis on groups as 'The Traveling Enchanter' all the way from Freeport to Qeynos.. I had a lucrative business
- Easy Rewards? - Anyone remember thinking a plain bronze breastplate made you uber?
- The right player base? - No, people coming in weren't all Epic Fantasy fans.. but they WERE after they came in.. due to a brilliant storyline and ambience. Their inner D&D geek was set free.. from the Grandmas to the Attorneys. People weren't kind to one another because they were of the same demographic.. it was because they weren't BORED... and they knew they needed others to survive and thrive.
- Caving to player demands? - Nope.. I bugged the hell out of Verant during EQ1 beta to make mezzing easier. They politely shut me down every time. Later, as I rocked a train, I would reflect on the fact that I'd gained a hard won PERSONAL SKILL that allowed me to keep a large crowd mezzed without looking at a clock, and.. this is import.. *not everyone could do it*.. they knew all along that what I saw as a curse was to be my reward
- Grand Appearances by the Producer? - It wasn't uncommon to have Aradune walk up to you and /say "Hey, wanna go to Guk?", he was one of us.. not sitting on his throne in the burning eye tower (cough)smed(cough)
Verant listened to our ideas and used the good stuff.. but the vision wasn't a democratic process. The challenge would create the magic.. and the magic wasn't granted. You really captured my long winded postulation in a single sentence Hieromonk:
"Due to the fact John Smedley only makes games, not worlds."
I dusted off the Guide folder in My Documents last night and was reading some of the Dynamic Quest scripts from those early days like 'Find the Enchanter', and 'House For Sale'! I remember those days, those people, those place.. like I remember real people and places. It's funny the things you can remember.. I remember my buddy Raadin dying to The Fabled Frenzied Ghoul in Guk from those days better than I can remember the boss that fired me or the woman that divorced me hahaha! THAT'S what makes a world!
The FEELS of this post though! Great take on how it all got started Jitai.
I agree with the no company bashing. It doesn't sit well on the gaming world as a whole. Who knows this Daybreak Game company or someone they might know could very well be interested in funding Pantheon! I think Brad has been through this song and dance many times. We have to look on the bright side and keep an open mind for the future of our game.
Carrera said:
...snip.... Who knows this Daybreak Game company or someone they might know could very well be interested in funding Pantheon! I think Brad has been through this song and dance many times. We have to look on the bright side and keep an open mind for the future of our game.
It is a very good point Carrera. The ties between all these people run deep. John Smedley (Sony Computer Entertainment America )was the one who called up Brad and Steve Clover to work on EQ. Smedley, now president of Daybreak founded Verant with Brad. A quote from Brad, "
Smed and I founded Verant. We started our own corporation, with him as President/CEO and me as Vice President. " http://otherworlds31279.yuku.com/reply/735/background-to-Verant-as-told-by-Brad-McQuaid#.VNE6Iy4YH1c
Jitai said:
You're right Zarriya.. I posted before I saw this (I was in formatting hell). I'm new here so I hope you'll forgive me. What you say rings true.
No worries Jitai - welcome ! I look forward to many more conversations. Happy to see someone as enthusiastic about Pantheon as we are.
I would imagine "Sunsetted" SOE games transferred also?... Time for Moorgard to spill the beans.
Zarriya said:
No worries Jitai - welcome ! I look forward to many more conversations. Happy to see someone as enthusiastic about Pantheon as we are.
Thanks, much appreciated. To be clear, I think the spirit of my previous posts was 'Did CN make a good and informed investment in SOE?' That's really a hard question to answer.. but I outlined in the post (and also to CN directly) some possible variables. If I bashed Smed or SOE, it was a reflection of facts and personal experiences rather than aggression... so it wasn't intentional. I think an important aspect of this purchase is that CN is not only investing in the 'SOE Brand', but also in their creative potential. If you look at the quote of the email I sent to CN (and posted on Reddit), it calls out that the Creative Capital of SOE actually resides elsewhere, to some degree. I don't think anyone would disagree that Brad was the creative engine behind the EQ franchise, so I hope they wouldn't label that as bashing. I do see and acknowledge the point that, at Brad's request, we should moderate our comments toward peaceful coexistence with other products.. it get's old hearing "ProductX sux and ProductY rules" heheh.. that does get old.. and it's bad form.
Jitai,
I mostly agree with you on the business side of things. However, if you look at Andrew Intrater's (CEO of CN) track record it is pretty good. Since 2007 he has grown CN from $2 Billion to around $15 Billion today. All the while he is collected a pretty diverse set of Technology based subsidies. Also, Visionary/Pantheon would be an ultra small investment (something they might not consider) and overlap with another subsidy (DayBreak). So, CN is almost guaranteed to force some sort of tie up if they invest. Not saying this is a bad thing, it really all depends on the personalities of the people involved between Daybreak and Visionary (do they mesh well and are their visions compatible).
On the Daybreak side I think this will really put the spotlight on John Smedley and his management team. CN brings directional freedom (i.e. Sony will not be determining a direction that is good for Sony), deep pockets, a ton of management experience, and a successful formula in regards to Technology Subsidies. For most management team that would be a dream situation where they can really take off and do great things! So, we will see how it plays out, because I believe the opportunity is there for success, it just depends on the execution.
Kilsin said:
Gawd said:
your letter was well worded. and nicely written. the main problem i see with any iteration of SOE investing into pantheon is the amount of Corperate pinheads that get involved. and the pinheads always look at the short term revenue. the immediate gains. which is why all the big studios are moving to the FTP market.
I believe Jitai was alerting Columbus Nova to this project with the intention of them investing in Pantheon, not SOE mate ;)
Columbus Nova just purchased SoE, with a bunch of "Experts" on the game industry on the payroll do you honestly think they wouldnt put this project under the Daybreak Game Company's (formerly SOE) Banner? and try to put their "Experts" on the creative team?
DanF, as a BI Architect I recently did a contract with an online payments company and was paid by their Investment Firm. My very next contract was with that online payment company's biggest competitor.. I was paid by the same Investment Firm for that contract too heheh. It's not *quite* as simple as banking.. but the metaphor works.. Investment Firms aren't bound by conflict of interest.
Gawd, I outlined in a previous post how the Investment Firm is really disconnected from operations.. other than "suggesting" (read hire and insert) that the company make management changes if they think there's a risk to their investment. Typically their "management suggestions" are very carefully thought out, they get industry heavy hitters who have shown conclusive results. Although, to your point, I wrote CN expressly to inform them that an attractive component of SOE (creativity) may reside elsewhere.. so there is room for error, but Investment Firms are usually a very good thing for a company's progress, and they're typically very hands off. It wasn't always that way.. IMFs used to go into a company and gut the soul and replace it with procedures. Since Business Intelligence has become accessible, they now know that this approach ends in having no employees, no customers, and no return on their investment heheh.
Gawd said:
Kilsin said:
Gawd said:
your letter was well worded. and nicely written. the main problem i see with any iteration of SOE investing into pantheon is the amount of Corperate pinheads that get involved. and the pinheads always look at the short term revenue. the immediate gains. which is why all the big studios are moving to the FTP market.
I believe Jitai was alerting Columbus Nova to this project with the intention of them investing in Pantheon, not SOE mate ;)
Columbus Nova just purchased SoE, with a bunch of "Experts" on the game industry on the payroll do you honestly think they wouldnt put this project under the Daybreak Game Company's (formerly SOE) Banner? and try to put their "Experts" on the creative team?
Yes, big investment companies like CN invest in projects similar to this all the time mate, they usually offer a set financial injection and give a timeframe for that investment to start making a profit.
They could say invest $10 million and as part of the rules ask that a CEO, CFO and Lead Dev structure be put in place by VRI and give VRI 3 years to push the game out to the public and expect reports of a profit being made by 1 year after launch, of something similar, that is just a very rough example.
Companies like CN just see things as investments and don't always get their hands dirty or try to stick their noses where they don't belong, they just see a solid investment or take a risk on what they think will make them money and go with it, which is why it is such a high risk and volatile industry for them.
Jitai,
I think we are relatively on the same page. I agree that Visionary/Pantheon is related to Daybreak's creative content based on personnel and vision. However, I think the investment would be too small for them to consider running this as an independent or an additional subsidy. So, the logical thing from their perspective is throwing it in with Daybreak. As you pointed out investment companies like this like to delegate, and from a CEO's perspective putting all their MMOs under one roof just makes sense. Now I may be wrong, maybe they like the idea of competition between investment properties. However, I have not seen a record of similar activity.
DanF, you're probably right. Investment Firms look for companies with untapped potential. They put a tap in it and hope it produces.. if it doesn't they just move on to the next target. In reality it's usually just a hand full of individuals who are way too wealthy and enjoy rolling the dice. Granted, it's not quite that simple, they own a herd of analysts that find their targets, but they get together and pick from the possibilities given to them. These are people that have already grown a business and transcended hard work and success to have fun tossing millions in each direction to see what sticks. A bit oversimplified, but you get the point. If you invest in individual stocks instead of funds, consider your own secret hope.. I bet it's the same as mine.. 'I'm going to invest in a $2 widget stock, then people are going to go nuts over it and shares will be worth $80 next year!'. These Investment Firms look for the golden egg as well. I have to say, and I hate to sound like a fanboy, but I personally think that just about anything McQuaid touches has Golden Egg potential. Hope someone with real bank gets the same opinion. I'm sure this project could use some grunts and some beer money.
It's good for SOE to have got Under that umbrella imho.
But beware that you don't get what (some of) you wish for.
I know quite well the kind of companies like CN. Their know how is to get a weighted profitability over a portfolio towards a target which is appealing to THEIR investors and shareholders.
That's why they buy and sell companies with only this weighted profitability target in mind and are generally good at it.
Indeed like someone already wrote, they never "dirty" their hands by intervening in the actual businesses because they (the good ones) very well know that they have not the competence to do so.
But at the same time they give a company rarely a second chance if it messes up the first.
If they or a similar company invested a large amount (not talking 10 M$ here, rather 40 or 70) this would be a curse for us and for the game.
The tenets and the philosophy of Pantheon are aiming at a niche consumer segment.
I estimated in another thread a normal sustainable result over 2 or 3 years being 50k subscriptions. 100 k subscriptions would already be a huge surprise.
200 k a miracle.
Now with this kind of income you can be profitable with 5 M$ investment. Perhaps with 10 if all goes well.
So imagine that some NC&Co throws 40 M or even more in Pantheon.
Then you have to abandon all your niche targets and go all out large public. You have to revise, abandon and redefine all your tenets and intentions because suddenly you have to go after customers that you were not interested in before.
You have to redefine damn accurately your marketing and pray that you don't make any mistake.
Only God knows where you would end.
Or, wisely, you could answer "Thanks but no. I can't keep my Vision and give you simultaneously the requested profitability on that much money ." ;)
Deadshade said:
It's good for SOE to have got Under that umbrella imho.
But beware that you don't get what (some of) you wish for.
I know quite well the kind of companies like CN. Their know how is to get a weighted profitability over a portfolio towards a target which is appealing to THEIR investors and shareholders.
That's why they buy and sell companies with only this weighted profitability target in mind and are generally good at it.
Indeed like someone already wrote, they never "dirty" their hands by intervening in the actual businesses because they (the good ones) very well know that they have not the competence to do so.
But at the same time they give a company rarely a second chance if it messes up the first.
If they or a similar company invested a large amount (not talking 10 M$ here, rather 40 or 70) this would be a curse for us and for the game.
The tenets and the philosophy of Pantheon are aiming at a niche consumer segment.
I estimated in another thread a normal sustainable result over 2 or 3 years being 50k subscriptions. 100 k subscriptions would already be a huge surprise.
200 k a miracle.
Now with this kind of income you can be profitable with 5 M$ investment. Perhaps with 10 if all goes well.
So imagine that some NC&Co throws 40 M or even more in Pantheon.
Then you have to abandon all your niche targets and go all out large public. You have to revise, abandon and redefine all your tenets and intentions because suddenly you have to go after customers that you were not interested in before.
You have to redefine damn accurately your marketing and pray that you don't make any mistake.
Only God knows where you would end.
Or, wisely, you could answer "Thanks but no. I can't keep my Vision and give you simultaneously the requested profitability on that much money ." ;)
I agree mate and I can tell you that Brad is very protective of his vision and of Pantheon, just as he was with EQ and VG. I know after speaking to him that he will not accept an offer if it will in anyway change the game away from his vision or have a negative impact on it.
To stay on topic though I would like to add that I wish SOE all the best, this may be the break away from Sony that they needed to stretch their creative legs and do something great for our industry, if not, then they would have at least tried and gone down fighting, lets just hope that they learned a lot of valuable lessons over the years and don't end up falling on their own sword by getting too greedy or making the same mistakes all over again.
Only time will tell though.
One thing to remember:
Every piece of software, until it is released to the public, is vaporware, even Pantheon.
I hope this spells good things for SoE, because like Brad, I want only positive things to happen int he MMO genre its good for me, its good for you, its just plain good for everyone.
From EQ to WoW to VG to ESO to EQN To Pantheon, I want all success stories, the more games, the more variety, and the more success we have before and now, the more it will help breed successes in the future.
VRI has all the leverage in the world, to be picky about who they want to invest with.
Personally, I think CCP is perfect for what Brad is doing here. Small release, with only a few thousand vanguards roleplaying out in Pantheon's wilderness... until word gets out. (perhaps a mundane release, zero advertisements, $25/month)
If Pantheon get the proper funding ($30M+) with VRI in full control and 4 years to develop... I would expect a full-on MMORPG game. Very similar to Vanguard/EQ with boats & commerce and maybe even an openworld.
Ever since the 5th expansion of Everquest and the KoS expansion for Everquest 2 I instantly felt that SOE was heading down a long decaying road. I don't mean it as a "bash" when I say that SOE handles MMO's very poorly...I am glad they are experiencing this change of pace and hopefully something refreshing and better can come from this experience.
I hope we can all agree that Planetside2 and H1Z1 are in the right hands..
Here's to purity within the Fantasy genre! Fantasy MMOs built by and for those who actually like Fantasy!
(raises beer horn high above his head, foam in his beard and a fierce haunted longing in his eye)