I'm with Sevens and Raidan on this one ./ducks for cover :)
Well said Dullahan
Mod Edit: Copy/Pasted double post into first post and removed double post, please use the edit function to add an afterthought rather than creating a new post as it is against forum guidelines :)
I'm personally not a fan of achievement systems. They won't turn me off to a game as long as they aren't too 'in your face' about it, but I think they spoil some of the mystery in games (once EQ added achievements, you could glean a lot about what was involved in quests and raid events just by scrolling through the possible achievements--long before you'd ever attempted them to begin with).
Shea said:I'm with Sevens and Raidan on this one ./ducks for cover :)
Well said Dullahan
Mod Edit: Copy/Pasted double post into first post and removed double post, please use the edit function to add an afterthought rather than creating a new post as it is against forum guidelines :)
Aye. I agree here also. I want to play the game not be constantly be reminded of (and comparing) frivolous statistics. In my opinion it becomes a carrot to gameplay.
Titles, if any, would have to come a looooong way down the road. And the fewer the better.
A game where "achievements" (they are called "deeds") are a very large part of the gameplay is Lotro .
I am mentionning it because the developpers apparently focused on this concept and did it very exhaustively .
So when somebody thinks of any concept of what an "achievement" could be, it is a safe bet that it already exists in Lotro .
The list of all possible deeds (that I remember) is :
- Killer deeds - it's just about killing a category of mobs
- Exploration deeds - discovering (often hidden) places, NPCs, lore . A deed I liked specifically in this category is finding Floyd who is an NPC explorer and explores in (some) zones on absolutely impossible places where you mostly didn't even know that you could get there .
- Quest deeds - well, as its name suggests it's about finishing a specific group of quests
- Class deeds - specific generally difficult tasks related to your class that are all different and constructed around a class defining property
- Race deeds - same as class deeds but related to your race (lore, history, specific skills)
- Crafter deeds - allow to progress in your trade skill
- Diplomatic deeds - getting max faction with a specific group of NPC (f.ex Elves of Lorien)
- Legendary deeds - related to the epic quest
- Festival deeds - at some moments in the (RL) year there are festivals when different puzzles, quests, tasks, competitions are organised and deeds reward accomplishments during this festival
- Trophy deeds - often related to raid targets when you may loot a unique item, a trophy, which can be displayed in your house or brought to a taxidermist and mounted on a wall . A subcategory are fishing deeds where you try to fish rare fishes at different places . The fishes can also be mounted on a wall by a taxidermist .
Rewards are mostly titles, sometimes faction or a treasure chest .
The result of this deeds system is that it makes the players to discover the content and go places or do things that they would otherwise pass by or neglect .
Obviously as there is a huge number of deeds, they are not all equally challenging, fun or rewarding . Some are interesting, fun and a real achievements and some (like the killer deeds) are boring and irrelevant .
I mentionned it mostly because it gives to those who want to think about this issue a comprehensive list of everything that could be called an "achievement" so that it gives them an easy way to sort out what they like and what they don't .
For those mathematically inclined if E is the set of all possible actions Ai that you can do in an MMORPG then a system of achievements or deeds is a partition of E in sets {Ai , i belonging to some set of indexes such as the actions Ai have a logical link among themselves} .
Obviously as this partition may be arbitrarily fine, it may be the whole E what means that there is no deeds system in the MMORPG :)
I'm on the fence on this one. I'm not a massive fan of the idea of loads of accomplishments but at the same time it would be pretty cool to be rewarded for doing something amazing that very few people have done. Let me use Steam achivements as an example. There are some that you can complete in the first 30 minutes of playing the game. These are pretty boring and pointless but there are some that less than 1% of the people owning the game have achieved. These are the ones that I think are important. It should be really hard to get an achievement and should only be given for something amazing like completing all the raid boses in an expansion or something or maybe completing your epic quest.
Also achievements shouldn't give you any clues about what you are supposed to do before you complete them. If there are any achievements like that they should be hidden until you complete them and then they should be shown. I can imagine that a title would be a good reward for some of these really hard to complete achievements.
So yeah I think achievements could work if done correctly but they must be difficult to complete otherwise they are pointless.
I like achievements. They often lead me to do things in the game I would never have done, and in turn see and experience more than I might have.
That being said, I agree with Dullahan that having stupid "Congratulations! You've cast your first spell!" achievements are ridiculous. An achievement for defeating dungeon bosses, exploring all of an area (and no notification of every little sub-region), and the like are fine with me.
sajbear said:I would like real achievements like in WoW, EQ and every steam game out there. I think the best thing would be secret achievements that you only see when you actually get them. I think it would add to the immersion! :)
https://www.pantheonrotf.com/polls/view/223/achivements
Discuss and vote!
Never been a fan of this type of grind in any MMO the only thing I would like to see is the first acheieved which they did in Vanguard that's kinda cool. I don't want anything easy hence why the group gaming community is why I am here. Easy to go play other games to get those boring things which have been done by every numpty gaming company.
As someone who considers myself a "completionist", I enjoy achievements but I think some mmo's take them too far where most of them are kind of silly and nothing really worth speaking of(talking about you WoW). I think they should stick to titles and faction rep for people that enjoy completing tasks and something to work on when there not raiding or whatever. For example have a title for killing every boss in a dungeon or raid, a title for completing all quests or side quests in the game, a title for completing your class epic quest, a title for exploring every zone, a title for gaining max faction for each faction, etc. Make them matter and actually take time and not just "fall 30 feet without dying" or "/hug every rabbit" type of rubbish. If it was done properly it would be such a cool thing to do and would create a lot more content for even people who don't normally do achievements because people always like to have "that special title" that makes them feel like they worked for something hard or to maybe show off.
As a Stephen has stated, As a completionist, I like to try to earn achievements. Many times, it gives me something to do when my friends are not on, especially non-combat related ones, such as exploration achievements. It also adds to replayability. It encourages me to go into areas/do things that I did not do while leveling and encourages me to see things I may have missed.
I also like to review my achievements and reminesce for nostalgia.
Couple years ago I thought achievements were fun/cool/gotta work on this one or that one. Now I'm done and over them. It's theme park stuff. I'd rather invest my membership dollars to the developers working on a new zone, artwork, mechanics, expansions instead of creating an initial batch of achievements then appending that list each expansion, holiday event, or what not.
Hell, rather see the effort put into old EQ style in-game GM events.
Bringing this back to life. I think achievements are awesome things to implement in a game. I'm not talking about heres an achievement for you being alive, but I love the ones that really do have to explore the deepest darkest corners. Or the ones that have you kill certain enemies in ways not normally done. I think these type of achievements should definitely exist. I don't like achievements removed though. I understand them since over time some become to easy to do and the sorts, but I always figured a time stamp to prove you did it when it was hard was proof enough.
Achievements give more to do, and in no game have I ever played have they been something required for the individual to do. If keeping this in mind, why not have achievements? You don't have to use it and it won't negatively impact your game play.
I feel many people respond with this idea that everyone should have to play how they play. That is rediculous to expect in any game.
Strongly against the common implementation of achievements, if any. The purpose of completing a challenge is the reward at the end, which is typically something like: defeating an enemy gives you a title and loot, being a max level crafter makes you an economic powerhouse (in old games not modern ones), completing a collection of rare stuff lets you show it off.
I believe achievements eventually, like even the proponents in this thread state, feel tacked on. It's too often "you defeated King Dragon (thanks Prozd) and got the Dragon's Hoard.... and also 15 achievement points!", which is just ridiculously pointless, no pun intended. I just refuse to believe such a thing is a useful thing to waste dev time on.
I would much prefer that, for example: if there is a "Decline and Fall of the Ginto Vol. I-VII", the purpose of obtaining the VII volumes is to have a complete set for display in your house's bookshelf and otherwise to read for lore background. Why does this need an achievement? What purpose does the achievement serve in this reward structure except to arbitrarily give you points?
Invariably this means that to make the achievement system have meaning on its own developers have to invent nonsense (some guy suggested an achievement for killing 1000 snakes so one does a kick emote or something, the joke was lost on me) to pad it. Why is this necessary? I would rather see that time taken to make much more meaningful stuff to do.
I am in support of achievments that happen as you explore and interact in the world. I would not mind two different kinds:
1st type-
Occurs naturally in the world as you interact in all sorts of ways (no list, persistence pays off eventually)
-You land a rare fish in every major lake or body of water is specific zones - Title "Master Angler"
-You craft so many rare or prestine upgrades in a particular craft - Title(s) "Supreme Armorer" "Brewmaster" ", Top Chef" "Master Tradesman of " etc..
-You discover the 15 unique shacks around Terminus and unlock their perception story - Title ", Ranger of Terminus"
-You kill or help kill specific rare mobs throughout Terminus - Title ", The Deadly Hunter"
2nd type-
-You gain a unique parchment after triggering multiple events that are related but in different areas. Reading this document enters a list in your journal achievements that gives clues and geographical areas to search for For all the next events for the achievment, including Title.
-completing a lengthy, epic style perception quest triggers an update in your achievement journal a list of mini achievements to knock out for a title, and said title is displayed At the end based on how you answered said questions.
These are types I would prefer, some given through hard work but not guiding you and some that triggers a list you can go after, but quite lengthy to achieve, presents a wow factor.
Wandidar said:There is likely a good argument to be made for capturing statistics. It's sort of fun to know that I:
- Killed 56,254 gnolls
- Caught 10,892 fish
- Looted 9,762 platinum
It's just that those things are just that - statistics. That's probably a good first cut on whether something should be an achievement. If it can be considered just a statistic, or perhaps more appropriately counting some number of something you did... then it's likely not an achievement.
Here are some examples of what I would consider achievement worthy:
"Better red than dead" - Solo a red con mob with no intervention from another player. This includes buffs, heals, etc...
"Sweeper Keeper" - Kill 10 consecutive spawns of a zone sweeper without it killing another player.
"Chef" - Master the fine art of cooking, including at least 10 exotic recipes
And I think it would be cool if there were achievements that only certain classes could get. For example:
"Thief" - Enter the caverns of 40 mobs every 6 inches. Get to the throne room and steal the kings keys. Get back out of the caverns. You must complete all of this without being detected.
I too like the idea of knowing how many fish I caught, how many knolls I killed, and how much money I've looted. I would love it even more if I had access to a sort of scoreboard because I'm competitive like that. :p
I echo what allot of people have said. If they aren’t something you went out of your way to do with some level of difficulty it is not by definition an achievement. Gaining level 20 is not an achievement, nor is reaching the next zone line.
I am really not a fan of conditional achievements such as beating boss X without taking damage or finishing an event in under X amount of time.
Now I do like the idea of a “Few” goals that might give people something to work towards. Here are my examples of achievements:
Killing a God
Killing all the Gods
Gaining an epic
Reaching the deepest part of the ocean
Reaching the highest part of the world
Gaining max faction with a the opposite alignment
Beating every named in a dungeon
Jimmayus said:Strongly against the common implementation of achievements, if any. The purpose of completing a challenge is the reward at the end, which is typically something like: defeating an enemy gives you a title and loot, being a max level crafter makes you an economic powerhouse (in old games not modern ones), completing a collection of rare stuff lets you show it off.
I believe achievements eventually, like even the proponents in this thread state, feel tacked on. It's too often "you defeated King Dragon (thanks Prozd) and got the Dragon's Hoard.... and also 15 achievement points!", which is just ridiculously pointless, no pun intended. I just refuse to believe such a thing is a useful thing to waste dev time on.
I would much prefer that, for example: if there is a "Decline and Fall of the Ginto Vol. I-VII", the purpose of obtaining the VII volumes is to have a complete set for display in your house's bookshelf and otherwise to read for lore background. Why does this need an achievement? What purpose does the achievement serve in this reward structure except to arbitrarily give you points?
Invariably this means that to make the achievement system have meaning on its own developers have to invent nonsense (some guy suggested an achievement for killing 1000 snakes so one does a kick emote or something, the joke was lost on me) to pad it. Why is this necessary? I would rather see that time taken to make much more meaningful stuff to do.
I would LOVE an achievement quest like the "Decline and Fall of the Ginto Vol. I-VII" its lore related and the books would be displayed in my house library. I am a collector, packrat whatever you would call it. Its something fun to do, and something to do when not involved in adventuring with others perhaps? And it wouldn't be a bother to other people, in any way, as it would be a display in my humble game abode. :) and not tacked onto my name plate obscuring the view. :)
I was just using that as a simple meta-challenge they could put into the game whose reward (a complete set that fits on a bookshelf in your house) does not require an "achievement". It's not like you need an achievement to spur you to go out and collect all the books, anybody who cared would stumble upon one in a library or bookshop or wherever and thus would know the volumes exist. It's up to the player if they care about it or not. I don't think that incentivizing with "you also get achievement points!" does anything useful here, and I would instead prefer dev time be spent on just making more challenges to stumble upon.
The main problem for me is that if you tack on achievements to do random stuff it becomes overly formalized. As in: let's say Volume 1 of the above was literally rare, as in only so many of the books entered the game per year. If this is an achievement then people cry because too many people will spot it on some list and then wonder why its rare when obvious achievements should be achievable. On the other hand, if Volume 1 of this particular set is known to be rare to book collectors (along with alternative art covers, "misprints", etc.) then it becomes something to pursue not because it gives points but because its worth it to the more obscure group of collectors or the avid book reader or whatever. Propagate this to dozens of small collectibles to complete sets of and you have a burgeoning market for small pockets of hobbyists to collect and sell things to people for the exact same reasons people collect things in the real world. Achievements just mean the devs have to make each of these otherwise little worlds less unique and quirky to make sure that nothing is too obscure or rare.
I just believe this is removing one of the more unimmersive "this is a game" aspects that developers have peppered modern games with sans justification. Why codify this stuff? Why can't it just be something people stumble upon? Having these obscure collectible systems tucked away for players to find by adventuring makes the world so much more rich than having a big checklist of "make sure you grind a bunch of stuff you have no interest in because we tacked points behind it!"; sometimes developers even have the gall to add rewards to things like this! It just feels terrible to me.
In the end to me achievements suffer from the same problem that so-called quests in modern games do. Sure there are some that might truly be called the achievement of something (completing a difficult and time consuming legendary weapon questline), but these are few and far between compared to the piles of nonsense that are added just to pad out the list. It feels so tacked on and arbitrary every step of the way. Why does the legendary weapon need an achievement in the first place? Isn't the goal to acquire the weapon because it's powerful? Or to show off that you put the time in? What purpose does the achievement system serve in this context?
I wouldn't need achievement points if I managed to find all the secret places where these books are hidden. The achievement for me would be succeeding in finding the whole collection over time. Personal achievement..no bars, stripes, extra name tags or points. The challenge of finding that whole collection, and succeeding. That's all. :) The goal is the challenge, succeeding after some time spent (months?) don't need anything extra. :) As for legendary epic weapon, the journey to get it is the challenge..and once you do your reward is the legendary epic weapon. Period. :)
Kilsin said:But nothing too over done like WoW, that system was just too easy-mode in my opinion.
I don't disagree with you regarding WoW's achievement system getting a little out of hand but it's important to remember that different players pursue different goals. I've always been an avid explorer and achievement hunter. One of the best times I had in WoW was when my guild decided that everyone on the core raid team was going to get "the Immortal" achievement title. We could already reliably clear Naxx but the perfect execution needed to not lose a single person in a boss fight was more interesting than some arbitrary "hard mode".
Ashkelon said:Kilsin said:But nothing too over done like WoW, that system was just too easy-mode in my opinion.
I don't disagree with you regarding WoW's achievement system getting a little out of hand but it's important to remember that different players pursue different goals. I've always been an avid explorer and achievement hunter. One of the best times I had in WoW was when my guild decided that everyone on the core raid team was going to get "the Immortal" achievement title. We could already reliably clear Naxx but the perfect execution needed to not lose a single person in a boss fight was more interesting than some arbitrary "hard mode".
Yeah, achievements like that would be amazing. I actually really liked WoWs achievements for every little thing. Ever since they came out with them I don't think I could play a game without achievements because of the extra stuff it allowed me to do if I wanted a break from raiding, or pvp, or rep grinding or something. I can also do without a lot of the random achievements that have no meaning, but there should defenitely be achievements in some form, like what you mentioned.
If they make achievements account wide, they should even include max level achievements for X job. Well, unless leveling to max level takes like a week, not so much of an achievement.