I personally like the massive title system in lotro. Vangaurd had prefix and suffix titles that I liked as well. I also like having bonuses tied to such things, similar to the eq2 collections that would give bonuses against a type of mob. If one had killed 50,000 Gnolls, one should be expected to have gotten at least slightly better at killing gnolls.
Ive always hated achievements and the like. Ive also never taken a last name. My actions and rep will speak for themselves. Im confident enough about my abilities that I feel no need to advertise them so if they are in-game please allow us the option to turn them off.
So I was recently thinking about achievements and how most games make them trivial, give you meaningless points for bragging rights, or in worst cases act as a gate that blocks your progression because of community preception. However, I found a video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jmq72_GX7HY that discussed briefly how achievements work currently in EverQuest and some of the outstanding rewards that they give you based on your progress.
I am someone who enjoys achievement farming. There's something rewarding about going out and being able to check something off your checklist that you hadn't finished yet. However, I believe that achievements and their rewards have been trivialized to the point where the word "achievement" has lost much of its value.
If achievements are something that are currently planned for Pantheon, can they be implemented so that they are a form of meaningful progression? The video showed how some achievements in Everquest provide players with resistances, items that can be equipped, alternate advancement points, or in some cases illusion spells that also act as buffs. In all the "recent" MMOs that I have played these rewards far outshine most of the modern rewards which can be earned such as the stat-less costumes, trivial title rewards, mounts that are a recolored version of an existing one in-game, or worst of all no reward just points that can be used for bragging rights.
Baldur said:I am someone who enjoys achievement farming. There's something rewarding about going out and being able to check something off your checklist that you hadn't finished yet. However, I believe that achievements and their rewards have been trivialized to the point where the word "achievement" has lost much of its value.
I have similar thoughts and shared an idea with this thought process in mind a couple pages back: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1656/achievements/view/page/3
oneADseven said:Baldur said:I am someone who enjoys achievement farming. There's something rewarding about going out and being able to check something off your checklist that you hadn't finished yet. However, I believe that achievements and their rewards have been trivialized to the point where the word "achievement" has lost much of its value.
I have similar thoughts and shared an idea with this thought process in mind a couple pages back: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1656/achievements/view/page/3
I saw that post and while I liked the idea of the skills that you presented I found them to be more of things that would fall under an alternate advancement skill line VS an achievement reward. What I would consider an achievement reward is something like:
Kill all of the following named NPC's in Haldir's Cave
(list of names)
Reward: Ring of the forgotten king and a title reward.
Or
Kill X boss/bosses (related to an atmospheric pressure area)
Reward: atmospheric pressure resistance increases by 5-10 points.
Going back to what I said about trivializing achievements killing vast amounts of something doesn't really constitute as a high level of achievement in my book. When I think about achievements that fall under this context my mind goes to the South Park episode where they memed killing 10,000 boars in WoW. While I understand that this is a feat of strength to some degree it is not something that I think should be overly rewarded. For example, I think if a player was to kill 10,000 skeletons an appropriate reward would be a title, and maybe a flat damage increase against skeletons. I wouldn't necessarily tie learned abilities to this achievement.
With that being said if the achievement required you to kill a bunch of named skeletons located all over the world I could see this type of achievement rewarding skills. I could also see this type of achievement being broken up into different categories with differently named skeletons in each based on their archetype. These achievements could grant a skill, for example, Skeletal smite could come from killing a list of named skeletal priests, Skeletal illusion could come form killing a list named of skeletal enchanters, Bone shield could come from skilling named skeletal tanks, and then a meta-achievement for obtaining all could reward the player with skeletal mastery increasing damage done, reducing damage taken, and reducing aggro radius against skeletal mobs.
I don't know why I never commented on this thread last time it came up. Here is my opinion.
I like the concept of achievements. But what I do not like is when everyone has earned the same ones.
For example - if killing 10,000 orcs grants an achievement, that's cool. But if killing 10,000 orcs is something that almost every adventurer is eventually going to achieve sooner or later, that's not really an achievement.
Here are some ways that I think achievements could be done where they would add to the world without being taken for granted.
1) Linked to dynamic content/events that not everyone will do. For example, if there's a very rare event that can sometimes occur in a part of the world (again, very rare), then I think it's cool to have an achievement for players who complete that event.
2) Linked to hidden requirements. For example, if someone wanders finds all the pools of radiance in the world, and then afterwards returns to the Temple of Lights, perhaps they earn an achievement. But ideally it should not be something that can be parsed out and posted on a web page for people to start doing.
3) Linked to occurrences that are outside of the player's control. For example, an achievement that is earned by slaying a salamander with a critical hit during a blood moon outdoors.
Essentially - make achievements something that help tell the story of our character rather than something that people go and intentionally farm. Make them rare and special and somewhat unique to the people that have them.
Don't make them just another form of questing or progression. Don't make them something that players feel compelled to go and do for the rewards or bonuses. Most importantly, don't make them something that's the result of a meaningless and mindless grind, and especially not one that everyone will complete over time without really trying to.
Nephele said:I don't know why I never commented on this thread last time it came up. Here is my opinion.
I like the concept of achievements. But what I do not like is when everyone has earned the same ones.
For example - if killing 10,000 orcs grants an achievement, that's cool. But if killing 10,000 orcs is something that almost every adventurer is eventually going to achieve sooner or later, that's not really an achievement.
Here are some ways that I think achievements could be done where they would add to the world without being taken for granted.
1) Linked to dynamic content/events that not everyone will do. For example, if there's a very rare event that can sometimes occur in a part of the world (again, very rare), then I think it's cool to have an achievement for players who complete that event.
2) Linked to hidden requirements. For example, if someone wanders finds all the pools of radiance in the world, and then afterwards returns to the Temple of Lights, perhaps they earn an achievement. But ideally it should not be something that can be parsed out and posted on a web page for people to start doing.
3) Linked to occurrences that are outside of the player's control. For example, an achievement that is earned by slaying a salamander with a critical hit during a blood moon outdoors.
Essentially - make achievements something that help tell the story of our character rather than something that people go and intentionally farm. Make them rare and special and somewhat unique to the people that have them.
Don't make them just another form of questing or progression. Don't make them something that players feel compelled to go and do for the rewards or bonuses. Most importantly, don't make them something that's the result of a meaningless and mindless grind, and especially not one that everyone will complete over time without really trying to.
I like the idea behind #1 and #2 and for achievements like that cosmetic items/ mounts could be rewarded due to it being a limited-time event/ potential hidden feat of strength. #3 goes back to my point about trivializing achievements though. If you were to earn an achievement for slaying a salamander with a critical strike during a blood moon, how is that really an achievement of skill/progression or participation in a limited time event? The player basically got lucky under the right circumstance and didn't really have to do anything special on their end, so why should something like this be classified as an achievement?
As for not making them another form or questing/progression. While I agree that they shouldn't feel like quests they should feel meaningful and somewhat rewarding based on the difficulty of obtainment. From the example that I provided I don't think players should feel forced to go out and find every named skeleton (some of which should be rare spawns), or feel forced to kill every named in a dungeon (some of which should have long spawn timers.) However, the truly dedicated player should be rewarded for completing these tasks. The world is not instanced, there is going to be a lot of competition for mobs to begin with. Not everyone is going to be able to get these achievements right off the rip due to this fact, however, anyone who does should be rewarded for their time and effort. If player's don't feel enticed/engaged to participate in a system what really is the point of having said system in-game.
I don't like achievements as the way of showing off to other (with nameplates, prefixes and suffixes), but it is really helpful personal tool (if done correctly and with great detail) to keep track of our progress. After years of playing, someone may be convinced that he saw everything, but when he looks at his achievements he notices that he have 3 achievements yet to unlock - like "Unravel great secret in The Tower of the Reckless Magician" - he goes back there and dig for more, while otherwise he would never be aware of it. It can also be a great way to chalange players - eg. beat X boss within 30min.
I do like the idea of achievements, but I don't like too many of them. Having a few is alright, and getting a title for some is a really cool idea, but if you have too many then it becomes tedious in my opinion. Achievements should be something that can be done naturally, but at the same time done with work. Don't make them too hard, but making them too easy leaves them being desired. Having achievements of killing a certain amount of things and having a title is a good idea, and having exploration achievements is also cool if done right. Having nonsense achievements like, collect all these types of pets, or only do this quest with just this weapon is kind of silly, in all honesty. While I do enjoy those types every once in a while, to litter the achievements list with them decreases their comical value. Ultimately I like the idea, so long as it's not gone overboard with and they actually have some sort of meaning; with a bit of humor thrown in there.
Baldur said:
As for not making them another form or questing/progression. While I agree that they shouldn't feel like quests they should feel meaningful and somewhat rewarding based on the difficulty of obtainment. From the example that I provided I don't think players should feel forced to go out and find every named skeleton (some of which should be rare spawns), or feel forced to kill every named in a dungeon (some of which should have long spawn timers.) However, the truly dedicated player should be rewarded for completing these tasks. The world is not instanced, there is going to be a lot of competition for mobs to begin with. Not everyone is going to be able to get these achievements right off the rip due to this fact, however, anyone who does should be rewarded for their time and effort. If player's don't feel enticed/engaged to participate in a system what really is the point of having said system in-game.
That's the rub though. If you make it so that players DO feel enticed/engaged to do them, then pretty much everyone will. Sure, some will do them quickly, and some will do them slowly. But if the requirements are known, and if they don't amount to anything more than "visit these places" or "fight these enemies" then eventually, everyone will have that achievement you coveted so much.
It's no different from having quests in a quest journal at that point, especially if it gives some kind of reward at the end.
What I'm aiming for in my feedback is for achievements to be earned organically as you explore and interact with the world, rather than intentionally. Ideally, it should be unusual for two players to have the same set of achievements completed, or even have all that many in common. This is only really possible if you don't know you're earning an achievement until you've actually earned one.
I feel the same way about quests, for what it's worth. While I absolutely love quests and will happily pursue them, they lose meaning and value when everyone else is doing the same ones. Thus, I prefer systems that have multiple steps; are organic and dynamic; that work via riddles and vague clues; that can't easily be predicted; and, are much harder to publish a walkthrough for - whether in-game or out of game.
I understand that this might seem like an attack on what you stated as your core motivation (farming achievements) but I submit that if we want these types of experiences to really feel special and meaningful, then Pantheon needs to jettison the idea of giving everyone the same bucket list to pursue and instead emphasize personal discovery as part of the process. Otherwise, one day you'll look around and see that everyone else has all the same achievements you have. Will they still feel meaningful then?
Nephele said:Essentially - make achievements something that help tell the story of our character rather than something that people go and intentionally farm. Make them rare and special and somewhat unique to the people that have them.
Don't make them just another form of questing or progression. Don't make them something that players feel compelled to go and do for the rewards or bonuses. Most importantly, don't make them something that's the result of a meaningless and mindless grind, and especially not one that everyone will complete over time without really trying to.
Pretty much this exactly.
I usually agree with a lot of what you say Neph but that couldn't be further from the truth when it comes to this topic. Achievements are supposed to be a byproduct of effort, courage, or skill. I'm not seeing many opportunities for that while operating with this kind of mindset:
Nephele said:What I'm aiming for in my feedback is for achievements to be earned organically as you explore and interact with the world, rather than intentionally.
Nephele said:Essentially - make achievements something that help tell the story of our character rather than something that people go and intentionally farm.
If players are unlocking achievements by playing the game organically rather than with intent and focus, I don't see how that isn't the exact same thing as this:
Nephele said:Most importantly, don't make them something that's the result of a meaningless and mindless grind, and especially not one that everyone will complete over time without really trying to.
I had to bold "most importantly" because that seems to be a major focal point of your feedback. Again, I would argue that if achievements are unlocked organically as players explore and interact with the world, that qualifies as something that "everyone will complete over time without really trying to" and that playing the game organically is the same meaningless and mindless grind you want to avoid. Sure you can create an arbitrary list of farfetched scenarios such as killing something with a critical strike during a blood moon, and then slap an achievement on it, but is that really meaningful? Is that truly worthy of being mentioned as part of my story? If I felt that such a thing was an achievement or part of my story, I would tell other people about it. An achievement system should be something that players can work towards with purpose, where the "achievement" is a testament to their dedication. Richard Bartle knows a thing or two about the motivators that help drive an "Achiever" player-type. If we're talking about an achievement system, I think those motivators should be front and center. We should certainly strive to add explorer/socializer components in there as well, but those should be a niche of the achievement system as a whole rather than the foundation it's built upon.
As far as this statement ...
Nephele said:I understand that this might seem like an attack on what you stated as your core motivation (farming achievements) but I submit that if we want these types of experiences to really feel special and meaningful, then Pantheon needs to jettison the idea of giving everyone the same bucket list to pursue and instead emphasize personal discovery as part of the process. Otherwise, one day you'll look around and see that everyone else has all the same achievements you have. Will they still feel meaningful then?
I would argue that the achievement system you describe would already be devoid of meaning to a player like me. For a topic like this, it ultimately comes down to what motivates us as players. I think I understand the underlying premise of your position here and while I certainly hope that you (as an explorer-type) have a chance to enjoy what you consider a meaningful or special achievement, I don't think an "achievement system" is the best way to get there unless we're talking about a sub-niche within the greater system. Even then, I still think achievements should be derived from intentional and focused gameplay.
oneADseven said:
I would argue that the achievement system you describe would already be devoid of meaning to a player like me. For a topic like this, it ultimately comes down to what motivates us as players. I think I understand the underlying premise of your position here and while I certainly hope that you (as an explorer-type) have a chance to enjoy what you consider a meaningful or special achievement, I don't think an "achievement system" is the way to get there. That just seems like trying to force a square peg through a round hole.
Pruned the quote tree down to just this simply to save space but it's all good debate :)
I think my point of view may best be explained by telling you two stories.
Story number 1: I didn't start playing LOTRO until right around the launch of the Moria expansion. So, by the time I started playing, most players that I interacted with were focused on just getting to the new stuff as fast as possible. Not me though. I wanted to see and do everything, so I spent a lot of time hunting down obscure quests or trying to convince my guildmates to go do lower-level group content with me that the vast majority of players at the time simply skipped or ignored. One of those was a small-ish (but really tough) instanced dungeon in Angmar, that was unlocked via an optional questline. When I completed that dungeon, I earned an achievement, and with it, the title "the Defiant". It was a title that I hadn't seen anyone using before and that made it much more meaningful. For the next year or two as I played, people would ask me where and how I got that title. Over time, however, achievement farming became a more common thing for people to do (probably because the top-end content was getting easier and easier to "finish" for them. More and more people started popping up with the same title I had.
Story number 2: In many games, I am a crafter, and FFXIV is no exception. When I first started playing back in 2014, I decided I wanted to be an armorsmith, and a few times a week I would make pieces of armor to sell or even sometimes just to hand out to new players. I always prided myself on making high-quality armor (which is a better version of the normal armor in that game). Sometime along the way, before the launch of the first expansion, I earned an achievement and a title: "Master Armorer". The achievement was earned by creating 10,000 high-quality armor pieces. Since I hadn't really paid attention to the achievement system I was a little surprised by this - and when I looked around, I was more surprised to see that I was one of very few players with a "Master" title for any crafting profession. Since the majority of people crafting were just working on leveling it up as fast as possible so they could make furniture pieces or something and weren't going out of their way to make high-quality items, very few people ever came anywhere close to earning the Master titles. This achievement felt very meaningful, and I've worn that title for the last several years.
In the latest expansion, however, Square Enix made changes to the crafting system that allows high-quality items to be created very easily. Trivially easy, in fact. At the same time, many people have now been crafting for several years just as I have. As a result, more and more people are now earning Master titles simply as a function of time and because it's frankly hard to not make items at high-quality anymore. It's still not common, but in another year it will be as meaningless as most other achievements and titles are in that game.
Does that help explain where I'm coming from? I like achievements, but I want them to really be meaningful - and I want them to keep being meaningful over time. I feel that in order to do that it's going to take a different approach. Something that can't easily be distilled down into a checklist that gets posted on a website or an easy set of instructions to follow so that anyone so inclined can go and earn the same achievements. I don't think this is a clash between achievers and explorers necessarily. If you manage to beat the special raid encounter "The Lich-drake of Athalos", then I feel like you should get an achievement for that. But I think you would want that achievement to still be meaningful two years and a level cap increase later, right?
It's just my point of view but two of the questions we should ask for every proposed achievement is "how do we make this stay meaningful over time" and "how do we make this challenging for individuals to obtain even when they know the steps involved". How do we make something that's supposed to be rare and special *stay* rare and special?
I'm not saying that my ideas are the best way to accomplish that goal. But I think that merely doing what other games have already done definitely will *not* get us any closer to that goal. New thinking is required.
Baldur said:As for not making them another form or questing/progression. While I agree that they shouldn't feel like quests they should feel meaningful and somewhat rewarding based on the difficulty of obtainment. From the example that I provided I don't think players should feel forced to go out and find every named skeleton (some of which should be rare spawns), or feel forced to kill every named in a dungeon (some of which should have long spawn timers.) However, the truly dedicated player should be rewarded for completing these tasks. The world is not instanced, there is going to be a lot of competition for mobs to begin with. Not everyone is going to be able to get these achievements right off the rip due to this fact, however, anyone who does should be rewarded for their time and effort. If player's don't feel enticed/engaged to participate in a system what really is the point of having said system in-game.
I am in strong agreement with the sentiment of this post and feel that having a challenging/contested open-world is a great catalyst for these kinds of achievements to feel meaningful and special. I also agree with the premise of your previous post, particularly when it comes to something like skeletal mastery. Hunting dozens of skeletal bosses spread around the world sounds a lot more engaging and fun than just killing 10,000 of them altogether.
Kilsin said:I wouldn't personally like a ton of achievements that just pop every 5 seconds when you take a step or open your bag etc. but I would like a title system that shows your achievements in the form of a title next to your name.
At least with titles you can toggle them on or off and still gain respect for wearing a very hard to get title making you the envy of everyone around you ;)
But nothing too over done like WoW, that system was just too easy-mode in my opinion.
I generally do not like achievements hunting myself. Especially if people know what to do and they get to focussed on them. (Like they do in ESO or games like Fortnite) Instead of playing the game they get focusses on skins and other unlocks.
What i did like, was how Vanguard handed it. There was a website (i think vanguardplayers or something) where you could set your profile show/hide your gear. But also if you did something in game, like server first discover a location, a screenshot was sent to the site for others to see. So there was no ingame clutteringt/tracking but there was that neat website. I really liked that.
But just a title or someting that you did something really difficult is fine with me. Just like you said... don't overdo it like making it an achievement for every fart like in WoW.