Right we have apprentice developer, knight's pledge, etc...
Each of these have some perk to it - and the perks sometimes overlap. This is a great system if someone plans to invest ONCE. Meaning, I pick the one the suits me best, and I'm good.
But I, and I assume others, have pledged more than once. I have:
1) Donated the minimum necessary to get on the site
2) Donated enough to get me orange
3) Donated enough to get me purple (Had to send a note to figure out what I should do for this)
I'm still considering giving more.
I think what might be better on a going forward basis with potentially more people coming on and donating as the game builds momentum is this:
1) Create a list of rewards at a given dollar level:
- Donate $a.00, get full access to forums
- Donate $b.00, get a copy of the game
- Donate $c.00, name an NPC in game
- Donate $d.00 get access to beta
- etc...
2) Provide a means to simply donate money
The idea here is that the list of items then becomes an incrementally greater set of benefits you get for having donated.
For the sake of argument, lets say you get access to the forums in the example above if you have donated $25, get the game if you have donated $100, name the NPC if you have donated $200, get access to beta if you have donated $250. Don't bother picking apart these example dollar values, they are just presented to make the point.
NOW:
- Say I first come the site and decide I just want to see what people are saying and have the ability to respond. I use the "donate money" function to donate $25
- Then say I decide I like what I see enough to want to help the team more, and maybe get the game as a perk. I use the "donate money" function to give $75 more to get me up to $100. I can now post and I'm getting the game.
- Later still, I decide I also want to name an NPC. I use the "donate money" function yet again, and give another $100. Now I'm up to $200... and I can name an NPC.
SO - now I can progressively donate, and, if at some point I forget what my exact perks are, I can just look at the list, see my "you have donated" value on the home page, and instantly know what I have. This extremely easy format might also encourage me to give a little more.... I might look at that $200 I've already donated for example, and think to myself "Well, they said beta was going to potentially last a full year... $50 isn't really much to get to participate at that level and have so much say in the game..."
BOOM - another $50 out of my pocket into the game.
I like the idea Wandidar although I doubt they will do this. It would simplify things over-all but it would also create more problems in the fact that someone will claim they donated X amount of dollars because of wanting Y reward while in reality they donated W.x amount of money planning/hoping to get bumped up to X for free because of the hassle they will make. They will have to make the levels far enough apart that such a tactic could not be used.
In the past, on the Pantheon store, you were allowed to upgrade your pledge level.
The perks that come along with each tier is the mandate.
People choose the level they are comfortable with, but not necessarily based on price/commitment. Some might want to "listen in", even though they have the money to spend $3k, but don't want to be active and involved, etc. I do not think Visionary Realms is doing anything out of the ordinary with their Pledge levels/tiers, they just need to define what each of those perks are & consist of.
But do understand, the vagueness of each pledge level's description is a given, due to the pre-alpha state we are in atm. I am sure the new website (ie: alongside Keeper's Vault), will have things much more transparent and flushed out. I think Brads too engaged into making a masterpiece, than he is about websites and wording. So this will be a good job for the new guys.. ; ]
BTW, there is already a thread about this (somewhat) in the Support Forum/Store Questions and Feedback here: https://www.pantheonrotf.com/forums/topic/613/please-re-design-the-store
.
ooo your thread got a sticky Wandidar! So I am figuring it is because the devs would like to see feedback here.
Yes, the pledge levels do need to be simplified.
Previously, there were a lot of choices. Too many? I am not sure; it was nice to have the freedom to choose my package. But the sheer number of choices were confusing to look at on this site. If you want to keep the packages that is okay, however there needs to be better organization, consistency and support. When one is trying to sell a product first impressions are important.
-The pledges need to be lined up in order: from lowest dollar amount to the highest.
-A good description needs to accompany each one.
-The ability to purchase with a credit card would also help. I have bought a lot of games in the past. For this game I had to open up a PayPal account; one could argue if they want the game that bad they will do it. My only concern is that this game may have an older playerbase that is not as comfortable using PayPal.
-A chart was very helpful.
-Terms such as Alpha 1 & 2 have been used: Access to each phase of testing should be clear.
-Confirmation to players who have already pledged should be confirmed.
Here is the pledge chart that i found under Wiki.
https://www.pantheonrotf.com/public/admin/zpledgechart.jpg
now while in the past the function of increasing pledge levels was already implemented I do believe that a smaller incremental system would be a benefit. in the past the smallest sum that i could upgrade pledge with was $100. i would like to see a $25 pledge upgrade, or maybe even just a Donate button where i put in the amount and that counts twards the pledge.
I think an issue with packaging stuff is that you either need to have an awful lot of stuff you are granting as a reward for your subscription, or you have to overlap a ton.
If I have donated $500, and in so doing I get A, B, and C - and then I donate another $500 and it ends up netting me A, B, C, and D - then my reward for $500 is that I've helped the game along by $500 more, and D feels expensive.
Plus, the more you overlap, the more confusing it gets.
If you look at my original example - part of the beauty of the idea is that when the decision was made to donate more in order to get beta access, the net impact of that additional pledge in how it feels to you, the investor, isn't that you're paying $250 to get to participate in the beta - but that you are donating $50 to do it.
So the net concept is to make your donations an upward progression of "The more you donate, the more clearly defined things you get" - With the things you get ONLY being attainable at a given dollar amount.
So, for example, if "get in the beta" was at the $250 amount as in my example - then the ONLY way you get that guaranteed paid beta spot is if you had paid $250. It then stays part of your cumulative reward package if you donate more over time.
A couple of changes i would make regarding pledges:
1, it needs to be easy to find where to pledge.
2, be easy to find the table that outlines benefits
3, easy to upgrade.
I do not think this was the case before, so im hoping they're looking into cleaning that up, side note, I also believe the site in general needs more structure, the only other gamesite i been on late i think is more confusing is EQN.
Also did I miss the dev tracker in the forum or there isnt one?
I have a different twist on your idea here Wandidar - it's not so much simplifying, but more incentivizing (which I suppose could make it arguably less simple).
I think since the shop has been taken down, it would be a good time to restructure the subscription model/shop as a whole. I believe the closer it gets to alpha/beta for example, the more it should be to "buy in." Thus, it rewards those have pledged and supported Pantheon early in development. Also, I believe there should be Kickstarter number limits which gives the impression that the accesses/items is finite. I don't know the best way/design/method to implement this outside of making every previously pledge tier item a-la carte (which I think could have a positive "cash-shop" type effect without in-game advantage items)
I'll share a hypothetical example
Updated Shop Today - Beta - $50
Beta - 6 months out - $75
Beta - 3 months out - $100
Beta - 30 days out - $150
Beta Accesses bought: 500/1000
If you still choose to "subscribe" at $5 or $15 a month, once you hit the $ amount for beta/alpha/etc. you could "select" your reward versus pledging toward a tier.
Just throwing out some random numbers there, but it may push more people to donate while rewarding those who have pledged to the project during the "hard times" by allowing them to keep their Tiered pledge (Knight's, originator's, patron's, pathfinder's, etc.) and if they are subscribing, still have that subscription applied to the tiered awards, while those who pledge from this point forward still can be rewarded if they pledge "early" versus last minute prior to beta.
@Raidan
So the idea is to incentivize people to buy early while it's cheaper, correct?
A couple of questions:
1) What about the person who didn't discover the game until 3 months before beta? Does it matter that they never really got a bite at the cheaper apple? Probably not - but throwing it out there for consideration.
2) I can see how this impacts something like beta - where you have a desire as a potential player to DO something... but how would it impact something like "Name an NPC?" That's not an investment in your ability to do something, it's an investment in having something done.
I'm not trashing your idea BTW - I see merit in it. "Get it while it's hot" is a strategy that has been used forever because, well, it's worked forever... Instead, I'm asking a couple "devil's advocate" type questions to see if you want to flesh the concept out more.
There are some good idea's in this thread!
I just wanted to point out for arguments sake, that Alpha will be more restricted than a Beta typically is, due to Beta being an important balancing and stress testing phase and we would want as many people as possible to help us test it, so if we were to increase prices at a staggered rate the closer we get to something, it would most likely be for some kind of early access, as Alpha is much more boring and more buggy than a Beta and requires dedication and strong reporting and breaking skills for all of those who really want to help make this game great :)
I am not sure how we would go about changing already existing pledges as we have already sold a bunch and to then sell them at a different price or remove/include items and sell it for the same price would make a lot of people very unhappy, so we have a lot to keep in mind when looking into this.
I am not sure the subs or the pledges are the problem though, it is more the add-on items and other offers that we wanted to review.
Please keep the idea's coming though, it is always good to brainstorm and we are constantly reading and discussing topics like this internally.
Thanks Kilsin. I think its a good idea to stop the shop for now, regroup, and try to sort out what you have in terms of packages for the people whom have already paid (which I am sure you guys are doing) That will at least give you an idea for what you have purposed in the upcoming future as far as supporters.
Car-
A different version of Raidan's suggestion. I call it the "Disney model."
This is the thing where every so often Disney releases some segment of their old movies "For the last time EVER!" - meaning, if you really want Snow White on DVD, and you missed the last time it was released for the last time ever, just wait until the next time it's released for the last time ever.
I'm not sure how that would work with my original concept - because it would add confusion to the whole thing, but I do know that telling someone they will only be able to get something for a short time gets people to buy things they might not buy if it were always going to be available.
Wandidar said:
@Raidan
So the idea is to incentivize people to buy early while it's cheaper, correct?
A couple of questions:
1) What about the person who didn't discover the game until 3 months before beta? Does it matter that they never really got a bite at the cheaper apple? Probably not - but throwing it out there for consideration.
2) I can see how this impacts something like beta - where you have a desire as a potential player to DO something... but how would it impact something like "Name an NPC?" That's not an investment in your ability to do something, it's an investment in having something done.
I'm not trashing your idea BTW - I see merit in it. "Get it while it's hot" is a strategy that has been used forever because, well, it's worked forever... Instead, I'm asking a couple "devil's advocate" type questions to see if you want to flesh the concept out more.
Yes, it incentivizes those who purchase a subscription/buy alpha/beta access early, etc. Your profile could be date/time stamped when you donate so it accurately shows your date/time without having to keep an e-mail to "prove" that's when you donate. I.E. Pantheon Supporter Since "1/30/2015" versus Pantheon Free Member since "1/30/2015." Whatever Timestamp you are at, is the beta/alpha (timetable items - see below) price you lock in.
1. If you show up to the party late, you don't get the same benefits. Sounds harsh, but it's just reality. They don't get the bite of the cheaper apple.
2. Not all items would have to be incentivized. It would be more of the timetable items. Timetable items = those that have to be created during development cycle or have a set timeline of release. Standard Items = no timetable, could be issued at launch.
Example Timetable Items based off current pledge tier rewards:
1. Tester Access
2. Alpha Access
3. Beta Access
4. Name an In Game Item
5. Design an Item
6. Name a Point of Interest
7. Design a Questline or Boss
8. Design a Raid-mob or Dungeon
9. Early name reservation
10. Lifetime Subscription
11. Invite to Dev Guild
Examples of Standard Items (Non-Changing Price)
1. Digital Copy of Game (Discounted from Launch Price - don't need the second copy option as they could buy two from this price)
2. Additional Character Slot
3.. Celestius Cloth Map
4. Postcard from Team
5. In-Game Plaque
6. Limited Edition Print
I removed all the other "Cash Shop or Fluff type" items from the list that would offer an in-game advantange. I'm sure other "development" type items could be added to this list as well as static/launch type items that would not provide an in-game advantage.
I feel marketing needs to be direct and honest. No gimmicks, no buy now or limited offers, etc.
edit: this comment does not apply to Raidans post "1. If you show up to the party late, you don't get the same benefits. Sounds harsh, but it's just reality. They don't get the bite of the cheaper apple. " That I agree with. Buying in early comes with greater risk and should have a greater reward. It should just be clear that it is sincere and not a sales tactic.
Also, your Account profile should show all the rewards you are currently receiving and are applied to your account so there is no Confusion.
So, say, I had pledged Pathfinder ($250) from the Kickstarter (using the current rewards) my account should say:
Rewards Currently Applied to Account:
1. Alpha Access
2. Beta Access
3. Early Name Registration
4. Digital Copy of Game
5. Title: Pantheon Explorer
6. Illusion Clicky
7. Additional Character Slot
8. Explorer's Backpack
9. Tunic of the Planes
10. Second Copy of Game
11. Astral Guide Pet
12. Celestius Cloth Map
13. Ring of the Fallen
14. Postcard from Team
15. Name in In-Game Credits
16. Name In-Game Item
17. Lifetime Subscription
18. Design an Item
Remaining Account Balance: $0
Now, if I was a subscriber, that Remaining Account Balance could be added at $5 or $15 per month (or if there was a lump sum type "add $100 to account, etc.)
Now, in addition, if you were to use my proposed model above, new members from here on out would be purely a la carte.
So, if you added $50 to your account today, and wanted to select Beta Access, then your account would say.
Pantheon Supporter Since 1/30/2015
Rewards Applied to account: Beta Access
Zarriya said:
I feel marketing needs to be direct and honest. No gimmicks, no buy now or limited offers, etc.
The model I am proposing would be open and honest, it is merely rewarding those who have supported Pantheon the earliest (when it was vaporware), now, when development and release is still in doubt, and not as much when it is gaurunteed to launch. If anything, I would argue it is more fair, and a better business model.
Pretty much any limited quantity/time item does this. For example, look at any 5k/10k/half marathon/marathon race. It is always "much" cheaper months in advance prior to race day. Or plane tickets, etc.
Kilsin said:
There are some good idea's in this thread!
I just wanted to point out for arguments sake, that Alpha will be more restricted than a Beta typically is, due to Beta being an important balancing and stress testing phase and we would want as many people as possible to help us test it, so if we were to increase prices at a staggered rate the closer we get to something, it would most likely be for some kind of early access, as Alpha is much more boring and more buggy than a Beta and requires dedication and strong reporting and breaking skills for all of those who really want to help make this game great :)
I am not sure how we would go about changing already existing pledges as we have already sold a bunch and to then sell them at a different price or remove/include items and sell it for the same price would make a lot of people very unhappy, so we have a lot to keep in mind when looking into this.
I am not sure the subs or the pledges are the problem though, it is more the add-on items and other offers that we wanted to review.
Please keep the idea's coming though, it is always good to brainstorm and we are constantly reading and discussing topics like this internally.
Kilsin,
A little clarification on my thoughts...
To address your first paragraph, I just gave an example of a timetable item (Beta), whether it would be feasible or not to incentivize could be discussed as I obviously don't know the release dates/plans, etc.
In regards to your second paragraph, I think all old pledgers "should" be grandfathered in and be able to subscribe/add more money based off old tiered rewards (Thus the importance of the time-stamp being implemented as mine would say Supporter Since 2/21/2014 - when I pledged to Pantheonrotf.com). It would be a more "moving forward" idea.
Raidan said:
Zarriya said:
I feel marketing needs to be direct and honest. No gimmicks, no buy now or limited offers, etc.
The model I am proposing would be open and honest, it is merely rewarding those who have supported Pantheon the earliest (when it was vaporware), now, when development and release is still in doubt, and not as much when it is gaurunteed to launch. If anything, I would argue it is more fair, and a better business model.
Pretty much any limited quantity/time item does this. For example, look at any 5k/10k/half marathon/marathon race. It is always "much" cheaper months in advance prior to race day. Or plane tickets, etc.
I edited my post (probably while you were typing) so as not to insinuate you wouldn't be :) My post was a general one and not aimed at you.
I think we are all striving for the same 5 basic components - or at least these are my interpretation of things I think a bunch of folks here are saying:
1) Easy to use
2) Easy to understand
3) Easy to see what rewards you have already earned
4) Easy to see what rewards are available to you (and for how much)
5) Don't make any of it gimmicky (all straight forward)
I think my original idea and the one that Raidan has promoted and fleshed out both get there. Any other ideas out there?
Zarriya said:
ooo your thread got a sticky Wandidar! So I am figuring it is because the devs would like to see feedback here.
Yes, the pledge levels do need to be simplified.
Previously, there were a lot of choices. Too many? I am not sure; it was nice to have the freedom to choose my package. But the sheer number of choices were confusing to look at on this site. If you want to keep the packages that is okay, however there needs to be better organization, consistency and support. When one is trying to sell a product first impressions are important.
-The pledges need to be lined up in order: from lowest dollar amount to the highest.
-A good description needs to accompany each one.
-The ability to purchase with a credit card would also help. I have bought a lot of games in the past. For this game I had to open up a PayPal account; one could argue if they want the game that bad they will do it. My only concern is that this game may have an older playerbase that is not as comfortable using PayPal.
-A chart was very helpful.
-Terms such as Alpha 1 & 2 have been used: Access to each phase of testing should be clear.
-Confirmation to players who have already pledged should be confirmed.
If you look in the Wiki all the pledge levels are defined there. Where I am confused is according to my pledge I should be allowed in at "pre-alpha" currently no mention is ever made of "pre-alpha" only alpha or beta.
Perhaps this needs clearing up. And just wanted to state that aside from the store and all its confusing little pledges and so on, the wiki really clears up and defines what you get for each larger pledge made. I hope they use that as a guideline and don't change what was promised. I think I would be distinctly unhappy if that happened, given the large changes that have already occurred around here.
**edit this is currently what is promised me for what I have given thus far:
I would hate to think that this would be watered down, or given away to a lower pledge level..or something similar. Hopefully any changes you do make, will make sense...be reasonable, and not be off putting to those that have already contributed.
Cana
Zarriya said:
ooo your thread got a sticky Wandidar! So I am figuring it is because the devs would like to see feedback here.
Yes, the pledge levels do need to be simplified.
Previously, there were a lot of choices. Too many? I am not sure; it was nice to have the freedom to choose my package. But the sheer number of choices were confusing to look at on this site. If you want to keep the packages that is okay, however there needs to be better organization, consistency and support. When one is trying to sell a product first impressions are important.
-The pledges need to be lined up in order: from lowest dollar amount to the highest.
-A good description needs to accompany each one.
-The ability to purchase with a credit card would also help. I have bought a lot of games in the past. For this game I had to open up a PayPal account; one could argue if they want the game that bad they will do it. My only concern is that this game may have an older playerbase that is not as comfortable using PayPal.
-A chart was very helpful.
-Terms such as Alpha 1 & 2 have been used: Access to each phase of testing should be clear.
-Confirmation to players who have already pledged should be confirmed.
I'm 61 and I use Paypal...and anyone my age that is still gaming would be familiar with some of these systems, just as I am :P hehehe
Cana
