Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

• Jobeson

  

  • 810 posts
   

  November 17, 2023 4:23 AM PST

  I am curious if anything has been released showing how darkness, torches, campfires etc will look with the new art style. The recent QA screenshot makes me feel like there should be more out there.

  Full of holiday spirit I will forgo my rant about the importance of darkness, difficulty, and good audio setting an important and dangerous tone.

  I do like how dark the shadows can be in the below image. Players need to be pushed to use lights.

  edit: fixed link

  
  This post was edited by Jobeson at November 17, 2023 7:26 AM PST

• StoneFish

  

  • 725 posts
   

  November 17, 2023 4:51 AM PST

  That's a good image
  It's the newer nighttime image with 2 shadow silhouette skeleton mobs.
  Looks proper spooky
  This post was edited by StoneFish at November 17, 2023 4:54 AM PST
• Prevenge

  

  • 167 posts
   

  November 17, 2023 7:13 PM PST

  I tried that Ember's Adrift game a while back. It wasn't for me, the reasons why don't matter, but one thing I thought they did really well was the torches. A separate torch button that lets you pop out your torch. You can't attack while it's out, you have to put it away to fight, but the ease of "whipping it out" and putting it away whenever necessary, just FELT really cool.
  
  I highly recommend people install it, next time it's free, just to try the torches, lol.
  
  I'd love to see Pantheon implement something like that.
  This post was edited by Prevenge at November 17, 2023 7:15 PM PST
• Sarim

  

  • 724 posts
   

  November 18, 2023 7:30 AM PST

  Agreed. I also like the ground torches in Embers. You could make a visible point for others to gather at, or a point to pull to...so many use cases :)
• vjek

  

  • 1921 posts
   

  November 18, 2023 8:46 AM PST

  IMO:

  The embers ground torches would have been good if their duration was ten times longer, or they produced 10 per combine, and still only lasted a few minutes.
  Why?  Because of their design decision to force players to fight in the dark, otherwise.

  So, on one hand, torch mechanic, cool, nothing surprising.  On the other hand, you can't have a torch out and fight.  Can't have a lantern on the belt.  Can't have a light spell.  Can't have a pet firefily.  Can't have ANYTHING that provides a tangible, reasonable, or useful amount of light while fighting.

  Their punitive design philosophy, followed by punitive implementation took a normal, very cool, possibly innovative mechanic and turned it into a reason (among many) that caused me to stop playing their game.  It was that bad.  They did it, that badly.

  While darkness can be a challenge to overcome, and be a primary gameplay mechanic?  It has no place being so in MMOs, in my opinion.  Players need to see the game in order to play it.  Forcing them to fight, travel, or otherwise suffer in darkness?  Not fun.  Does not drive customer retention.  Does not expand the target demographic.

• Prevenge

  

  • 167 posts
   

  November 18, 2023 9:30 AM PST

  Yea, that sounds awful. I didn't play far enough to experience any of that. I think I'd had enough by about level 3.
  
  I don't want to see THOSE kind of mechanics - belts, shields, fireflies, spells, should all still be included, without a doubt.
  
  Just a torch button, would be cool, for your base torch. Even if you only end up using it for the first few levels. Or perhaps down the road, you replace your belt with something with no lighting effects, at least you know you still have your trusty torch button, until you find another light source.
  
  Pantheon could even have it that you can fight with your torch out, it just replaces whatever is your secondary. All mechanics could stay the same, but there's just a dedicated torch button, so you don't have to fumble in the menu to equip one.
• Jobeson

  

  • 810 posts
   

  November 18, 2023 12:27 PM PST

  I had tons of fun in Embers adrift, sadly the total content was extremely limited. Killing to level up may be the main loop, but the world needs to give you a reason to want to be a higher level which Embers didn't. It had consumable torches to stick in the ground for stationary lights though. You could buy cheap ones or craft longer lasting ones. They were pretty much camp markers which was helpful when pulling back to a certain spot you had a clear visual sign for not attacking mobs until they are in the light.
  
  I do wish Embers let you fight with the normal torch in an off hand though. It was a needed feature, especially for dungeon crawls.
  
  

  vjek said:
  
  While darkness can be a challenge to overcome, and be a primary gameplay mechanic? It has no place being so in MMOs, in my opinion. Players need to see the game in order to play it. Forcing them to fight, travel, or otherwise suffer in darkness? Not fun. Does not drive customer retention. Does not expand the target demographic.
  
  

  
  
  I don't get the hatred for darkness in MMOs without it including a hatred of stealth, invis, fog, trees, rocks, walls, and even ground travel in general. If the game doesn't push players to move cautiously the world is always a let down. If the target demographic everyone then it is exactly like every other current MMO. Fight the half dozen fully funded studios who already spent hundreds of millions of dollars to cater to the lowest common denominator is going to be a very small slice of that target audience. Fans of difficulty and mechanics adding difficulty are the demographic you suggest throwing away.
• vjek

  

  • 1921 posts
   

  November 18, 2023 4:14 PM PST

  IMO:

  There are many, many ways to engage the player to make darkness a challenge to overcome.  EQ1 did it.  You give the tools to the player, and they overcome the challenge.  It comes down to one decision, from what I see:
  Do you want your players to suffer and/or logout at night, or be able to continue playing?
  To me, a reasonable and fun approach would be to continue to permit players to play, rather than suffer.  Carrot, not stick.
  I understand there is a less broad, more niche demographic that would prefer that night be instant death for everyone unless you're holding a portable 10k lumen light source.  I get that.  Totally on board and have non-MMO survival played games like that.
  
  Yet, historically, the draw to MMOs is that you can play them any time with friends.  Why make it any time with friends, except at night, in-game?
  Even stress testing M&M on Nov 11, without Ultravision, testers stopped testing at night, because they could not see to travel, move, interact, retrieve their corpse, loot, or test -anything-.  Was that better?  Turns out, not so much.

• Jobeson

  

  • 810 posts
   

  November 19, 2023 1:06 PM PST

  People will quit MMOs over everything. Some quit because they can't solo the game with ease aka "permitting players to play, rather than suffer" others quit because they faceroll every combat. Your carrot only approach is the norm for mmos. We all know what games that mentality makes. "The game begins at max level" is a trope because that is the only safe place to sprinkle in difficulty to the masses.
  
  Pantheon needs the sticks. Difficulty, open world, dispositions, traveling, group focused zones, and gear locked environments, are all driving away players while attracting others who think overcoming difficulties is part of the adventure.
• chenzeme

  

  • 902 posts
   

  November 19, 2023 3:04 PM PST

  Honestly, if players log off at night, then there will be more content for players that think like me and will make the most of it. Pantheon's vision is that it should be hard and not the same as all the other mmos out there. That is not a wrong choice for VR. VR also said there will be way around the darkness, so toughen up, I say!
• Prevenge

  

  • 167 posts
   

  November 21, 2023 8:20 AM PST

  chenzeme said:
  Honestly, if players log off at night, then there will be more content for players that think like me and will make the most of it. Pantheon's vision is that it should be hard and not the same as all the other mmos out there. That is not a wrong choice for VR. VR also said there will be way around the darkness, so toughen up, I say!

  
  
  Running around without a torch at night? The moon is full, the stars are bright, you can see what you are doing and where you are going, just fine.
  
  Cloud covers the sky? Pitch blackness rolls in, very hard to see anything, a light source is required.
  
  Deep in an underground dungeon? Pitch black without a torch or light source, wall fauna and glowing bugs etc.
  
  
  
  This is my ideal setup. I was under the impression Pantheon was already all of these things.
• Ziegfried

  

  • 264 posts
   

  November 22, 2023 5:37 PM PST

  The best option for players who hate darkness is giving them a race/spell/item that at least partially negates that darkness. Pitch black should be reserved for caves and dungeons...the overworld should still have moonlight in most areas at least.

• chenzeme

  

  • 902 posts
   

  November 22, 2023 11:41 PM PST

  Ziegfried said:

  The best option for players who hate darkness is giving them a race/spell/item that at least partially negates that darkness. Pitch black should be reserved for caves and dungeons...the overworld should still have moonlight in most areas at least.

  This is in game, already.
• Jobeson

  

  • 810 posts
   

  November 24, 2023 1:22 PM PST

  The second it is effectively optional through a mechanic like UV, the whole concept becomes a waste of development time the team should have spent on worthwhile mechanics. Gamers will always select the easy path and force everyone else to adopt it too. We sadly can't have it both ways. I am all for multiple light source styles and tools to use to counter darkness in various ways. Campfires, torches both carried and stationary, flaming swords, lanterns, environmental lights, magical lights tied to class abilities and pets, so many fun combinations for groups. I really hope they change their mind on the UV "I win" ability.
  
  "I win" mechanics are never a good thing in gaming. They are simply expected norms.
  
  Flying mounts are the "I win" of MMO traveling. Just remember flying mounts are technically optional. If someone refused to fly/teleport to your group and instead wanted to take 45 minutes on foot you would be pissed they are trolling you.
  
  In 5e D&D you have plenty of mechanics around traveling. Getting lost when failing skill checks, making/buying crude/high quality maps, leaving trails, weather impacting your abilities, etc. Then you have the "I win" option that says you just always know because you are perfect. It negates the whole system.
  This post was edited by Jobeson at November 24, 2023 1:22 PM PST
• chenzeme

  

  • 902 posts
   

  November 25, 2023 3:30 AM PST

  No system should become trivial through game mechanics. There should always be costs and payoffs. Torch in hand means less damage. Light hanging from belt should have limited range and the body should cause shadows in the opposite direction from where the light source comes from. All player light sources should be limited in time before the fuel needs to be replaced, whether that is mana or physically based. Glowing armour should be limited in range and be hard to get or produce. It's just imagination that limits a mechanic becoming meaningless.
  
  The flying mounts mentioned above for example as the "I win" makes travelling trivial. Well yes it does for all of the games I have played, but it doesn't have to. Flying itself should have dangers. Basic ones being cold and lack of oxygen. Then you introduce other flying creatures that look at you as a meal. Weather conditions. Stamina considerations. Etc., etc. It does not have to be a "I win" and the game becomes easier. It should be a "I win, oh! There is more to think about"
  
  Just because mechanics are introduced that seem to trivialise game mechanics does not mean it has to be this way.
  
  All mechanics in game should never become truely trivial, but should always require thought and planning.