Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

• Ranarius

  

  • 1284 posts
   

  November 21, 2023 8:47 AM PST

  Nicoladen said:Good gameplay and poor graphics already exists - Everquest TLP's - What I was hoping for here was both great gameplay and atleast present day graphics. Imagine insane graphics with UE 5 and the gameplay from Everquest - the imersion would have been epic

   

  That would be insane :)  Agreed!  I will argue that I believe Pantheon in it's current form is already better gameplay than EQ though, and they're not even finished getting what they want in the game in the game.  I have no argument about the graphics, I really did like the idea of more realistic graphics but if it was never going to work anyway then there's no value in asking for it.  The current art has really grown on me, the initial shock is gone and it feels right to me now.  Of course I want them to continue to improve on it.  

• lotuss79

  

  • 185 posts
   

  November 21, 2023 1:14 PM PST

  I don’t think anyone’s actually saying they need to be amazing AAA quality graphics. Just not “cartoony” graphics.
  Its a matter of style not so much quality.
  
  Also i don’t think its simple enough to say the old graphical style ‘wasn’t working’.
  Just like its not so simple to say that 247 was ‘a great testing tool’.
  Call me crazy, but the actual reason for 247 was that Chris Perkins personally likes extraction games.
  And the real reason for the art shift was that he Personally likes cartoony graphics.
  Major decisions that will determine the future viability of the game seen to be made based on personal preferences that are deviating very far from game that was pitched to the community in the beginning.
• chenzeme

  

  • 902 posts
   

  November 21, 2023 1:22 PM PST

  Wow! I mean, CRAZY.
  Chris tell you this personally, then? Another case of leaping to conclusions, unless of course you care to link where Chris actually says this?
• lotuss79

  

  • 185 posts
   

  November 21, 2023 2:47 PM PST

  chenzeme said:
  Wow! I mean, CRAZY.
  Chris tell you this personally, then? Another case of leaping to conclusions, unless of course you care to link where Chris actually says this?

  
  
  
  
  Won't provide links because they will simply take too long to find.
  
  But he himself Did in the past joke about how his artistic aesthetic differed from Brads and that he likes the cartoon style whereas Brad wanted realism.
  
  And he had mentiond a specific extraction game that he playes and likes (can't remember the name).
  
  
  
  So im not making this up out of thin air. Although a fair amount of concluding was done, but i don't think its off the mark.
  
  
  
  They had shown off several zones done in the original art style (Thronefast, Avenders Pass, Wilds End, Farethale, Blackrose, Halnir Cave, Reckless Magician).
  
  A lot of content was done in the old art style, and there were no performance issues with large population in PA.
  
  
  
  I think there's ample evidence to suggest they did not HAVE to make this change as claimed.
• RedGang

  

  • 80 posts
   

  November 21, 2023 3:02 PM PST

  chenzeme said:
  Wow! I mean, CRAZY.
  Chris tell you this personally, then? Another case of leaping to conclusions, unless of course you care to link where Chris actually says this?

  
  
  He literally stated the risk & tension of extraction games, personally speaks to him, with regards to the 247 mode. It's at the 1:25:00 mark of the Pantheon 247 video:
  
  [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgDiMF_qXrw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgDiMF_qXrw
  
  He's also an avid WoW player, a fan of the cartoon style and is very unlikely to choose an art style he doesn't like.
  
  Assuming none of this affected his decisions on 247 is more of a leap than anything Lotus said.
• chenzeme

  

  • 902 posts
   

  November 21, 2023 4:13 PM PST

  Suggesting that the real reason for 247 and graphics change was just down to personal preferences of Chris is basically calling him a liar and had nothing to do with it being a reporting tool and the Pantheon engine not being able to cope.
  More spitballing and it is just tedious.
  This post was edited by chenzeme at November 21, 2023 4:13 PM PST
• lotuss79

  

  • 185 posts
   

  November 21, 2023 4:45 PM PST

  Im not trying to call people liars, but when he suggested that they just never had a chance to really think about what they wanted Pantheon to look like, thats just absurd.
  
  The game had a Clearly defined art style that was showcased in one developer stream after another. Often in minute detail.
  
  
  
  And keep in mind VR is basically a handful of people with Chris as the creative director. Its not a full on professional outfit that opperates on a strict protocol.
  
  Chris liked cartoon graphics and extraciton games, and presto, 8 months of vaporized development time later, we're introduced to an extraction game with cartoon graphics.
  
  
  
  Now This would be pure speculation..
  
  When the game is opened up to Alpha pledgers next month, a flood of players will excitedly come in.
  
  They will see up close what the world looks like with the new art style, and just walk away after a few days.
  
  Then some key, knowledgeable people will tell them they need to switch back to the "impossible" graphics, and then all of a sudden Unity will not be "impossible" anymore.
  
  Again, pure speculation. But will see soon enough.
• chenzeme

  

  • 902 posts
   

  November 22, 2023 3:25 AM PST

  lotuss79: Im not trying to call people liars,
  
  lotuss79: Call me crazy, but the actual reason for 247 was that Chris Perkins personally likes extraction games.
  And the real reason for the art shift was that he Personally likes cartoony graphics.
  
  The implication was there, though. You implied the game didn't need to change and it was Chris' likes that made it so, not what Pantheon required. Hence: Chenzeme: "Crazy"
  
  lotuss79: Then some key, knowledgeable people will tell them they need to switch back to the "impossible" graphics, and then all of a sudden Unity will not be "impossible" anymore.
  
  Key, knowledgeable? You mean anyone who agrees with your view point? And where does "impossible graphics" enter any argument? No one said impossible until you did.
  
  Look, it is down to the game engine and the complexity of the models used. Irrespective of style (that is something entirely different), the original models were too complex in their creation, design and rendering. According to VR, the creation rate was too low and the engine could not cope when they tested with their setups. It is impossible to go back to those models, because of lack in manpower and the game engine's frame rate just wouldn't cut it (again, according to VR).
  
  The style of graphics is something completely different. Unfortunately, VR have already said this is to stay whether you like it or not. I agree that the style needs "enhancing" to fit with the original concept of Pantheon. I am on the fence as to whether they can be made to do that. The models though, will have to remain simplified regardless of the end style chosen.
  
  For me, I wait until I get first hand knowledge of it before I decide. I don't tend to speculate without real reason to do so.
  This post was edited by chenzeme at November 22, 2023 3:28 AM PST
• lotuss79

  

  • 185 posts
   

  November 22, 2023 12:00 PM PST

  Chenzeme, correct, i am implying that they have lied about why they changed the art style. I just prefer not to throw around terms like that. But yes.
  
  
  
  The "key, knowledgeable people" remark was referencing a post by Savanja about who caused them to change direction on 247.
  
  
  
  The argument that Unity, one of the two most widely used game engines in the industry, that can be successfully used by countless other studios, is for some reason "unworkable" or "impossible" or whatever word you want to use, is not a reasonable argument from VR.
  
  
  
  My prediction remains. Once Alpha pledger get into the game, the graphics will have to change. And all of a sudden Unity will be just fine to use again.
• chenzeme

  

  • 902 posts
   

  November 22, 2023 2:56 PM PST

  Whether VR change the graphics style or not is not the same as going back to the original models. This simply won't happen. If the style gets darker and less WOW (for the lack of a better word) then great. I personally would not expect another style change though. You can do a lot to make this current style grittier, I am not convinced it will be enough. But, I am willing to see if it can be done.
  
  We shall see in a few weeks time!
  This post was edited by chenzeme at November 22, 2023 2:59 PM PST