Yes, I’m mostly a lurker here. My usual routine is to be active on the forums for a few weeks and then I would step away from the forums for a month or two. I would then come back to enjoy all the new information and conversations. Rinse & Repeat.
The past month on the forums has been very depressing. Is this the first time a ground shaking bomb has been dropped on us? NO. But this bomb seems to light the other bombs with proper light so that my rose-colored glasses don’t seem to be working properly.
I will keep hope for Pantheon, but I feel like our “family” is breaking apart.
Ashmaker said:Crazy. Literally the only MMORPG I had hope for and its basically dead now. The fact that they kept this from backers is incredibly scummy. Are refunds available?
If they are indeed broke, where do you expect your refund to come from? In any case though the answer is no, you will not be getting a refund.
I am definitely a forum lurker here. I am absolutely disappointed in the current direction the team is going both with the art style and this latest 247 thing. I don't care for the Fortnite style reduction in the art style I have zero interest in 247. Kinda wish I had not pledged at this point.
I am happy I pledged. It was the right decision at the time based on what I knew then and that is the only fair way to evaluate any decision. What is more I have gotten my money's worth from the "Game of Forums" spending time here.
I am less happy with what has happened to Pantheon but even so pledging was not a mistake.
As we all did - I knew that it was a contribution to an effort that might or might not succeed. If it did we would get no refund - we would get the rewards specified for the pledge level. If it did not succeed we would get no refund. The money was gone forever - that is how pledges generally work - nothing unfair there.
I agree with Dorotea. Given what we were told at that time, the decision to pledge, in my view, was a no brainer. I don't think I have had value for money, thus far though, but I too am glad I pledged.
Whether I stay a loyal fan of the idea of Pantheon or not, remains to be seen. Whether I think it money well spent is also up for debate. But we have to let VR speak first (not that we should be in this position at all).
I'm not on the fence, but am climbing down one side. The next week or two will decide which side; team VR, or team give up and move on.
chenzeme said:I agree with Dorotea. Given what we were told at that time, the decision to pledge, in my view, was a no brainer. I don't think I have had value for money, thus far though, but I too am glad I pledged.
Whether I stay a loyal fan of the idea of Pantheon or not, remains to be seen. Whether I think it money well spent is also up for debate. But we have to let VR speak first (not that we should be in this position at all).
I'm not on the fence, but am climbing down one side. The next week or two will decide which side; team VR, or team give up and move on.
Based on post count I obviously got more entertainment value than you did. Note I am not saying I *added* more value.
I am in about the same position on the same fence. I expect vague nothings in the newsletter, as you do. Yet I can be extremely patient when there is no other choice. I will wait. I will read it.
justdrop said:dorotea said:What is more I have gotten my money's worth from the "Game of Forums" spending time here.
Wait until this one finds out there are places you can communicate without flushing your money down the toilet.
Just pot stirring? Or do you have something to add to the conversation? Dorotea is well aware that there are other communication channels. We are all aware that there are free ways to interact with this community. But it's a little like fantasy football; having skin the game makes it more interesting. You can see by Dorotea's post cound that they have spent years interacting on this forum and are a respected member of this community.
Jeez. Not sure when I started troll feeding, but it's a little like a drug. You know you shouldn't, but...
Ruinar said:justdrop said:dorotea said:What is more I have gotten my money's worth from the "Game of Forums" spending time here.
Wait until this one finds out there are places you can communicate without flushing your money down the toilet.
Just pot stirring? Or do you have something to add to the conversation? Dorotea is well aware that there are other communication channels. We are all aware that there are free ways to interact with this community. But it's a little like fantasy football; having skin the game makes it more interesting. You can see by Dorotea's post cound that they have spent years interacting on this forum and are a respected member of this community.
Jeez. Not sure when I started troll feeding, but it's a little like a drug. You know you shouldn't, but...
I added to it. There are plenty of places to discuss the game without being taken for your money. If Dorotea is aware of this, then perhaps they should stop trolling by acting like the behavior of this company is in any way acceptable. You are free to go back to disliking my attitude quietly.
Edit: In case I haven't been clear enough, we didn't fund an extraction fantasy game and the fact that ANY resources are being spent on that and not the game we're meant to be discussing here is unacceptable. Attempts to sugar-coat it are unacceptable. Attempts to defend the attitude of those sugar-coating it are unacceptable. This is what's known as holding them accountable. Try it. You want to make accusations about me? My stance has been laid out plainly for all to see. Lay down and let them walk on you if you wish, I will call you and them out for it.
justdrop said:Edit: In case I haven't been clear enough, we didn't fund an extraction fantasy game and the fact that ANY resources are being spent on that and not the game we're meant to be discussing here is unacceptable. Attempts to sugar-coat it are unacceptable. Attempts to defend the attitude of those sugar-coating it are unacceptable. This is what's known as holding them accountable. Try it. You want to make accusations about me? My stance has been laid out plainly for all to see. Lay down and let them walk on you if you wish, I will call you and them out for it.
Maybe you should have read the terms of your pledge:
- VR offers no guarantees or warranties of performance, service, Pantheon Rise of the Fallen (“PRotF”) completion or delivery of Pledge Package items.
- While VR will make a best faith effort to complete, release and support PRotF, game development is a high risk endeavor. For any number of reasons, VR may not be able to complete PRotF, offer access to the game, or may not be able to deliver some or all items listed in the Pledge Packages.
This may be a good time to remind people that crowdfunding is not an investment, it is a donation. VR owes you nothing, and is beholden to no one but the people who have given them funding as legally binding investments.
eunichron said:justdrop said:Edit: In case I haven't been clear enough, we didn't fund an extraction fantasy game and the fact that ANY resources are being spent on that and not the game we're meant to be discussing here is unacceptable. Attempts to sugar-coat it are unacceptable. Attempts to defend the attitude of those sugar-coating it are unacceptable. This is what's known as holding them accountable. Try it. You want to make accusations about me? My stance has been laid out plainly for all to see. Lay down and let them walk on you if you wish, I will call you and them out for it.
Maybe you should have read the terms of your pledge:
- VR offers no guarantees or warranties of performance, service, Pantheon Rise of the Fallen (“PRotF”) completion or delivery of Pledge Package items.
- While VR will make a best faith effort to complete, release and support PRotF, game development is a high risk endeavor. For any number of reasons, VR may not be able to complete PRotF, offer access to the game, or may not be able to deliver some or all items listed in the Pledge Packages.
This may be a good time to remind people that crowdfunding is not an investment, it is a donation. VR owes you nothing, and is beholden to no one but the people who have given them funding as legally binding investments.
Legally, yes. That's why I'm not taking this to court. You want to try to defend the morality of what they're doing now? Thought not.
Morality depends on many things - not least of all what VR believed at the time they did what they did. Something unknown and unknowable without information from inside VR.
Morality depends to a large extent upon belief. More than upon facts.
Let us take a hypothetical assumption. Several years ago it became obvious to any reasonable person with access to all the facts that Pantheon would never reach launch given the level of funding and other resources. Not in less than 20 years.
Situation 1 - VR or at least its leadership understood this but continued operating as if all was well in the hope a miracle would occur. Or to try and milk the cow until the udders ran dry. Their statements to backers were far more optimistic than they actually thought the situation was. The morality of this is ....at a minimum highly debatable. At a maximum non-existant.
Situation 2 - VR or at least its leadership did NOT understand this. They honestly believed, contrary to the facts, that all was going well. They were idiots. Or they were too incompetent to accurately judge the situation. Or they were in too far over their heads and didn't have the necessary expertise.
Situation two is far from complimentary about VR - all should agree with that statement. Yet under situation two they were perfectly moral.
I do not claim either the hypothetical or the situations are true - or close to true. Neither do I deny that. This post is to discuss the nature of morality. To me it seems self-evident that whether someone acted morally - not correctly not wisely but *morally* depends in almost every aspect upon what their belief was at the time.
justdrop - you face a real conundrum here. The more one believes that VR was incompetent the less one can believe they were immoral. The more one believes they were immoral, the less one can believe they were incompetent.
Not long ago, maybe a month? there was mention of a 24/7 server for players. Fast forward to now and this 24/7 server is actually 247, an entirely different thing. Intentional misdirection to bait people who were interested in the game to back it. Why name it 247 if it wasn't a go at that? Name it literally anything else. Again, keep letting them walk all over you and I will continue holding their feet to the fire. The only conundrum is why people so vehemently refuse to accept reality. That gotcha was so terrible that you didn't even bother positing more than two situations.
Ruinar - "Jeez. Not sure when I started troll feeding, but it's a little like a drug. You know you shouldn't, but..."
While this did make me chuckle, it may be more a case of the needle that broke the camel's back.
Thunderleg said:Ruinar - "Jeez. Not sure when I started troll feeding, but it's a little like a drug. You know you shouldn't, but..."
While this did make me chuckle, it may be more a case of the needle that broke the camel's back.
I don't have a problem with holding VR's feet to the fire over this. It's insulting other community members, even ones that agree with you that bothers me.
Ruinar said:Thunderleg said:Ruinar - "Jeez. Not sure when I started troll feeding, but it's a little like a drug. You know you shouldn't, but..."
While this did make me chuckle, it may be more a case of the needle that broke the camel's back.
I don't have a problem with holding VR's feet to the fire over this. It's insulting other community members, even ones that agree with you that bothers me.
The irony. dorotea attempts to give VR an out at every opportunity and when the flaws in their logic are pointed out, you jump in. I'm criticizing their arguments, you are insulting me.
Edit: And before you attempt your terrible gotcha, I only insinuated they were trolling after you called me one. You work in tandem. They make excuses for a company that clearly does not care and you defend them from criticism under the guise of "being established community members." I've been here for awhile, just because I don't participate every week doesn't negate my contributions and observations of the situation. You know what you can do with your high and mighty position.