Ashreon said:Nenski said:The art change was a very necessary and welcoming breath of fresh air. The amount of creep scope the team was facing was beyond their current load capacity.
Some people need to realize that graphics do not create great games, gameplay does. This is a sentiment everyone here should know by now.
Art style does not add to creep scope. Modelling and Coding are handled by separate people and thus it does not interfere with each other. It is entirely pointless to sit and talk about creep scope in terms of art for the game.
Creep scope is constantly wanting to add new things to the game and quite frankly, the entire planning of this game reeks of: We have none.
They spend what, a good 4-5 years developing their pipeline or rather should I say, they spend 4-5 years NOT developing their pipeline, to realize they needed their pipeline in place, so they got it in place just to realize that they needed to redo - everything.
This is a complete downgrade from what we were shown just a few weeks ago in terms of models while we were promised "breath taking" art. This.. Is not it and honestly, they were hyping the new modeller guy/gal. This is just a complete disappointment to the point where most people would probably prefer it is redone. I'm not asking for FFXVI+ insanity graphics in which I can see every single pore in the skin, but man.. Come on. If I wanted to play Palia, that's what I would be playing.
I get it, potato PCs, but honestly. Upgrade your PC if it is so potato (I know I will in the coming months), 'cos frankly, I can't sit and scream like a little kid in the store that was denied candy, because I didn't want to invest in new parts. It is on the consumer to keep up, not VR.
And yes, I'm annoyed, but I was also prepared that a Brad project would likely end up like this, again, 'cos that man was not known for his... management skills in the gaming community.
What are you on about? Designers, gameplay programmers, and artists all work together -- typically in a team with a set goal in mind using (in almost all cases) the scrum method to complete said goal. Now, depending on the studio you may have specific roles or even animators or artists who also program things as well. But given this is an indie studio, it's safe to assume that a lot of people are wearing multiple hats. At one point I was working with a studio and had to work on the server side of things, programming UI, fixing UE5 actor blueprints, and rigging animations.
Scope creep is not strictly regulated to adding deliverables to a project. What you are referring to is known as feature creep.
In my previous post, I am speaking about setting and delivering goals. So when you said art doesn't add to scope creep, I don't know what you're saying. If they were trying to create high fidelity art for a project, and the artists are not able to deliver this in a timely manor because it's outside their resources -- then that is the very definition of scope creep. Having art that is beyond the team's capability when given a time frame that pushes out the project even further. If you're in a scrum, and the tasks assigned to you are not equal across the board, say your artists are given a task that is beyond the time alloted, then you've technically hit scope creep.
Just semantics, perhaps, but you are using the word creep in a very different way than I have heard it used. Perhaps your use is correct and mine is not, or perhaps the meaning has changed.
To me the word creep in this context does not relate to your hypothetical at all. That hypothetical being a project goal that is too ambitious because it requires more artists or better artists or more art resources than the project actually has. This isn't "creep" at all - creep meaning slow movement. It is a project designed without adaquate consideration of all the things needed to make it work within the timeframe that was intended.
To me feature creep and scope creep mean something very different. The delay and perhaps even failure of a project because *new* features and scope are added after the project is in progress. As in "let us just add one more race - how much work can doing the artwork for one more race be?" The size of the project expands bit by bit - it *creeps* into more and more things. Thus requiring more time and resources - perhaps more than are available. Because those involved underestimate what each new feature or scope will require or overestimate their capabilities.
Hello all. This is my first time posting. I just want to offer my two cents in regard to the new art direction. I have felt that VR has been doing an excellent job to date and Chris Perkins has at times seemed as if he is telepathic and reading my mind as to exactly what I want in my dream game, or perhaps psychic in that he knows what I want even when I don’t. However, this is the first time in the game’s development that I have become concerned. I agree with the reasoning presented as to why this art direction is needed, especially if it simplifies the game development so that VR can finish it sooner and we can finally start playing it, BUT I have mixed feelings about the appearance of the hand painted art style. The first time I watched the video, I immediately disliked the art style, but then after watching it again, I realized that I actually do like the art style for the landscape, just not for the character and creature models. The sky, water, rocks, ground, and vegetation look great to me. I thought the spider models looked good too, but what I absolutely hated was the fur and hair on the people and animals (oggryms, bears, wolfs). It looked like all of Pantheon’s furry wildlife went too a hair salon to get highlights done. I think the hand painted style for fur and hair just looks bad. If this was done to improve game performance, then I would be 100% in favor of the new art style for everything except the fur and hair. I think less detail/no detail, no texture, fewer polygons, would be preferable than paint strokes for hair. To me, if the fur and hair is just a solid color, then my mind could imagine the detail and I would prefer that over the hand painted style.
Secondly, and this might just be my imagination, but the size of the human character model’s eyes seemed to have gotten larger. This, above anything else, is what I think gives this new art style a cartoonish feel. This reminds me of Japanimation. I may be the minority here, but I have always disliked the Japanimation art style because it seems like a mashup of human faces with praying mantis faces, the gigantic eyes and tiny noses feel disturbing to me in an overly cutesy way. I know that Pantheon is a fantasy game, but it needs to feel realistic to me, or there is absolutely no way I can enjoy it. I simply cannot play a cartoon character in a cartoon world. That is a deal breaker for me. That is why I wasn’t able to play WOW for more than one day before I quit. I was an Everquest 2 addict partly because I liked the realism of the character models. So, VR I beg you, please make all of the character models have realistic face and body proportions (shrink those eyes down to natural, realistic sizes!) and just don’t worry about peoples’ hair and animals’ fur … less is more. I loved video games in the 80s, 90s, and 2000s even though those graphics were super simple.
Again, thanks to VR and Chris Perkins, you have all done such an amazing job so far. Please accept this feedback as positive criticism and just know that you are building something fantastic that will bring a lot of people a lot of joy, fun, social connection, entertainment, and dopamine.
I understand the folks who are saying "this HAD to be done." I get it. They don't have the resources to deliver the original vision. But, I'd be lying if I said I wasn't disappointed. The realistic art style was a huge draw for me. This no longer feels like the game I pledged to support.
I bet VR is disappointed too. They can still make the painted art style look good, I have no doubt about that, but I'd bet that they would have preferred a realistic awesome looking MMORPG too.
I played EQ Landmark which was cartoonish and I quite enjoyed the look of that, so I have no doubt it can work here.
This looks like WoW cartoon trash, even EQ's 20 year old graphics look better. Brad must be turning in his grave. This game no longer matches the original vision that was sold to pledgers and seems destined for abandonware before it even gets to market. Oh well, back to EQ progression servers, until someone makes a worthy successor.
This is not what I pledged for 7 years ago. It's been bad enough that all this time later, this is still no ALPHA. I was sold on the realist style of this game. I would not have put money into another WOW looking game, regardless of how great the game play is. A game has to have both, good graphics and good gameplay. Diablo 4 looks amazing, and the gameplay was great before their negative patches. So right now, it's half a game to me.
I don't want to play another WOW, I signed up for a progression of EQ with realistic graphics, not cartoony looking ones.
I am now so sorry I didn't invest in Asheron's Call instead of this game.
I am hoping you do the right thing and offer us a chance for a refund.
Nanfoodle said:Chimerical said:Had they stated in the beginning of development that this was the art style they were headed toward, I would not have given them $1000.00. I don't find myself looking forward to this game any longer. From I niche game, designed for a group of backers I find myself a part of, to a game now targeting a wider audience, that apparently I'm not part of, the game has changed, not for the better, in my opinion. I understand they are incapable of acheiving what they hoped, almost a decade ago, with a small team, and who knows, maybe they will surprise me in the end, but I doubt it.
I will continue to follow the games development, not with hope, but resignation...
I do find this funny. Not making fun but that VR has always sold us in a spirtual eveloution of EQ1. Not on the promise of high end graphics. My self, anything that brings me this game promised. One of teaming that matters, classes that change team dynamics and all the other trapping of what modern MMOs are not doing. Then I dont care about the rest. VR has not changed the vision of what was sold. Just the art style. Changing this art style, allows this small team to move faster and deliver the game, they promised. Still happy I gave them money.
I don't think it's "high end graphics".
It's art style.
LOTR:Online has extremely dated graphics, but a realistic art style that is, itself, somewhat timeless.
Fortnight has "high end graphics", but with a ridiculous cartoony style similar to a cross between WoW and Wildstar.
One reason I could never get into Wildstar was the art style, and it's one of the reasons I eventually left WoW. I'm...not really happy about this move as immersion is a big deal to me, and deformed, brightly colored cartoon characters don't work well for that. I'll stay my judgement for the time being but...yeah, not thrilled, I'll say that.
Renathras said:Nanfoodle said:Chimerical said:Had they stated in the beginning of development that this was the art style they were headed toward, I would not have given them $1000.00. I don't find myself looking forward to this game any longer. From I niche game, designed for a group of backers I find myself a part of, to a game now targeting a wider audience, that apparently I'm not part of, the game has changed, not for the better, in my opinion. I understand they are incapable of acheiving what they hoped, almost a decade ago, with a small team, and who knows, maybe they will surprise me in the end, but I doubt it.
I will continue to follow the games development, not with hope, but resignation...
I do find this funny. Not making fun but that VR has always sold us in a spirtual eveloution of EQ1. Not on the promise of high end graphics. My self, anything that brings me this game promised. One of teaming that matters, classes that change team dynamics and all the other trapping of what modern MMOs are not doing. Then I dont care about the rest. VR has not changed the vision of what was sold. Just the art style. Changing this art style, allows this small team to move faster and deliver the game, they promised. Still happy I gave them money.
I don't think it's "high end graphics".
It's art style.
LOTR:Online has extremely dated graphics, but a realistic art style that is, itself, somewhat timeless.
Fortnight has "high end graphics", but with a ridiculous cartoony style similar to a cross between WoW and Wildstar.
One reason I could never get into Wildstar was the art style, and it's one of the reasons I eventually left WoW. I'm...not really happy about this move as immersion is a big deal to me, and deformed, brightly colored cartoon characters don't work well for that. I'll stay my judgement for the time being but...yeah, not thrilled, I'll say that.
I agree, it is the art style, not photo-realism I am after. As said on lots of other posts, you can have a realistic, stylised art style. It does not have to be cartoon style. The other point is that we all signed up looking at the art and video's that VR were producing at the time, thus the style was indeed portrayed as the content style to expect. If someone shows you pictures of a racing green sports car, and you sign up (even if they do not specifically say "this is the car", you still expect that car. If you then get a pink SUV, then some may be very upset. Some would be happy, but not all. The point is, that the graphics were indeed promised, even if it was not explicitly stated. I do not accept that the original style was not promised. Every video, every live stream, every screen shot said otherwise.
chenzeme said:I agree, it is the art style, not photo-realism I am after. As said on lots of other posts, you can have a realistic, stylised art style. It does not have to be cartoon style. The other point is that we all signed up looking at the art and video's that VR were producing at the time, thus the style was indeed portrayed as the content style to expect. If someone shows you pictures of a racing green sports car, and you sign up (even if they do not specifically say "this is the car", you still expect that car. If you then get a pink SUV, then some may be very upset. Some would be happy, but not all. The point is, that the graphics were indeed promised, even if it was not explicitly stated. I do not accept that the original style was not promised. Every video, every live stream, every screen shot said otherwise.
I would mention that we were told for several years that the graphics we were seeing in a lot of the dev videos were place-holders and definitely not set in stone.
Edit: I'm not a fan of the new art style, but I was not supporting/following this game for the artstyle.
Edit: Corrected typo - these forums need spell checking :)
Darch said:I would mention that we were told for several years that the graphics we were seeing in a lot of the dev videos were place-holders and not definitely not set in stone.
Edit: I'm not a fan of the new art style, but I was not support/following this game for the artstyle.
I wanted to emphasize this. I can understand feeling upset if, this whole time, VR had been saying "this is what you are getting" when showcasing their work. And, eventhough I am apprehensive about the new art style, it does not change the fact that I remain curious about the game to which I have donated to.
I will say that I do remember Vanguard: Saga of heroes had a similar (used loosely) style of art. When it released it did nothing to help. It was buggy, full of glitches and difficult to play. Granted, there were a myriad of other problems/aspects that played into the downfall of that game. But, that is another conversation on another forum.
It would also be my guess that as the development of Pantheon continues, we will see more updates to this new art style as well.
Please tell me this is a joke. This is not the vision of the next stage of Everquest as I envisioned it and what I was led to believe you were striving for. Anyone want to purchase my Pantheon account? I will not be playing this WOW upgrade. So glad I only invested $250.
What an incredible disappointment.
Respectfully, and in response to the statements made in the video, the painted style creates the opposite impression of Pantheon having a unique identity. It looks far too similar to modern WoW, Fortnite and a multitude of games that capitalize on this art fad that have saturated Steam in recent years. I have little reason to believe this art style will be popular and enjoyed in ten years; the cartoon graphics that modern WoW is encumbered with are merely tolerated now -- and they were updated in batches every few years anyway because gamers being as they are were going to complain anyway.
More importantly, there will be no need to be concerned with the sustainability of the art style over several expansions if it causes the game to fail the vibe check and fall short of player population thresholds.
I feel that I need to mention that the art style can relatively easily be changed in the future. ("Relative" to developing the actual game). I'm not a fan of the Fortnite graphics personally, but at the end of the day, I couldn't care less about the artstyle 'today' if that means they can stop trying to get every eyelash and freckle in the right place before moving onto actually developing the damn game. Go back to polygon graphics for all I care, just get to work on the game mechanics. It apparently only took a few months to completely overhaul the art style... graphics should not be a priority for any reason other than speeding up development, so if that is the case, then have at it. We can always change art styles when we get closer to Beta testing... or even after release.
I agree with Darch with a one big caveat.
Once they hit alpha - may that blessed day be not as far off as I fear - they are for all practical purposes locked in. They cannot change their entire graphics approach without disasterous delays and bad publicity.
Well a second caveat - also big. Having worked on the current approach since May they need to keep it. They can make significant changes in the details and quality but yet another change in the *basics* will communicate nothing but "we are just playing around and nothing will ever happen". Unless it communicates "we are jerking you all around and nothing will happen".
As someone very disappointed by the graphics change - I still urge VR to stick with it and make it better. Nothing but a direct line to alpha, beta and release is feasible at this point.
Everyone has their own idea of what this game was going to be. My vision 7 years ago and still today was that this game was going to be an updated version of EQ, with more realistic graphics. EQ to me was and still is the best MMO game ever, however it suffers from very outdated graphics, that is actually to the detrement of the outstanding game play in todays world. Yes I still find myself going back to play every now and then, but then I stop because the graphics and other elements are so behind todays times. And yes, I have been spoiled by ESO, Diablo 4 and many other games with realistic graphics and great gameplay.
I invested into this game based on what was was shown at the time, and what was shown for 7 years until a month or so ago. I would never have invested, let me say that again, I would never have put a single dollar into this game if what they were showing at the time was what they recently introduced as graphics with a unique identily. Tell me how is it unique in comparison to WOW, or Fortnight or many other games?
Again, I put money on a vision that was show for 7 years, and that vision has changed. I could care less if this game NOW might appeal to more people including reaching a younger audience than it would have before. To me I need a game with great gameplay and realistic graphics. That's what Pantheon was shown to be for 7 years.
It wouldn't matter to me if this graphics change means they could be in ALPHA next month and the game delivered next year. I am NOT interested in it now!
What this appears to me is a true bait and switch. You don't wait 7 years and then announce a major change like this with not a word in all those prior years.
If you enjoy the new graphics, then buy the game.
I request that VR give the option to have money refunded to those who invested in the game and are unhappy with this change.
VR please address this!
Not the graphics I signed up for and the reason I do not play WoW.
Refunds may not be a thing, so I will consider this a bottle of good Burbon that my kids got into and watered down as they drained what made it good.
If you read these comments VR......... Change all the Screenshots/photos in the Promo's - Advertising and Link's, to the 'new' game art style as the current 'old' ones give a false impression of what the game is becoming.
Because it also saddens those of us that are/were invested in those 'old' graphics.
If there is a possiblity that the 'old' graphics come back someday......awesome.
As an original backer (Knights Pledge) that has followed every single update since the beginning, this video is by far the largest disappointment that I've seen and it's a deal breaker for me.
Everything up to this point has been pleasant -a serious tone designed for fans of the EQ genre and fans of the trinity system.
I don't want a serious MMO to look like a Disney kids game. I also don't want it to look like yesteryear's MMO on low graphics settings. Now, if you had told me that Pantheon had shifted to become an micro-transaction driven tablet game, I would completely understand the graphics decision that you have made - and I still wouldn't play it.
Please rethink this decision because it was absolutely not the right decision for a serious return to the community driven MMORPG genre.
This is a surefire way to get laughed out of any successful future than Pantheon could have had.
It's not the game I bought into. I suspect that the graphics changed to suit the "mini" game. (just my opinion)
I was stoked by having Brad onboard and I feel with Brads passing the game has taken a hard left turn. They said they wanted the new graphics to be a signature mark, like 20 years ago it might have been but not now.
I was expecting a game that would push the gpu end of things not something that will run on my ipad. I may overemphasized the ipad part but you get what I mean.
It's seemingly gone from a adult looking game to one that a child would play. you may grab more kid subscriptions but you may lose more adults.
lutorin said:
Well like many I really hate this graphic style. This is not what I paid for . I paid for improved EQ gameplay with gritty realistic graphics.
But worse is that there is something behind the scenes that we are not told .
Just think one second - what can be the reason to dramatically change the graphic style (like really a U turn) after NINE years of development ? I don't believe one second what they said because it is demonstrably wrong.
A distinctive style ? It is exactly the contrary - there are tons of "modern" games that use this childish cartoon style and some for almost 20 years (WoW) .
Less load on computers ? Did they even make a survey among the backers what computers they use ? No they didn't . And even if it was a real worry , then how is it possible that nobody (Brad included) had thought about this point during NINE years ?
So clearly there is some other reason that we'll perhaps learn some other day but I doubt that it will be a happy surprise.
When I take a long look at the new art style, a few things become apparent: Lack of detail, exaggerated features, loud bright colors. How is this any different from WoWs style? Or Fortnite? Or the defunct Wildstar? And it somehow looks worse than any of those. This is not a unique identity especially in today's MMO space. Games with more realistic graphics/art style are rare in the MMO space, the previous art style of Pantheon was going to stand out far more than this one! I suspect this was done for other reasons..namely to appeal to a young audience and to speed up development time. Not a good look though IMO.
