Darch said:Regardless of what all characters have, I think the Ranger's tracking ability should absolutely have a visible indicator (because staring at the chat doesn't "feel" like tracking). The indicator could be an arrow or glowing foot prints, idc... but there needs to be something for the Ranger. Perhaps it could change brightness/color depending on proximity too.
Tracking in EQ was quite dumb...
"Your target is to the right"
"Your target is to the right"
"Your target is straight ahead and to the right"
"Your target is behind you and to the left"
"Your target is behind you and to the left"
"Your target is above you and to the right"
"You have lost track of your target"
Meanwhile you just stood there and turned in tiny circles, waiting for the next text message, trying to get your target straight in front of you.
I also still think Rangers should have an ability to flare (outdoors) or use heightened senses (indoor) to be able to detect targets through obstacles at certain distances. (Similar to Daredevil or maybe Batman's sonar tech). That would make the Ranger highly desireable... compared to the Monk and Rogue which both have incredible tool kits.
You got an indicator in chat like you might spot an indicator - broken twig - spore - footprint.
The indicator would give you a direction, so you'd move in that direction until you saw another indicator.
"stood there and turned in tiny circles" Carefully looked for tracking clues
"waiting for the next text message" until you find another indication of your prey's movements
"trying to get your target straight in front of you" that tells you which direction they went
Pretty much exactly like tracking, no?
Whereas an arrow letting you automatically and constantly just 'know' exactly what direction your prey is not really?
I agree that there could be a better way than chat messages, but it's way more realistic than a UI arrow. A direction indicator on the ground would be better and more realistic (though nothing 'glowing' that you could see from a long way away).
Questaar said:As someone that will get lost a lot. (I have a lousy sense of direction.). Hey Q where are you? I'm by a lot of trees...and rocks...does that help? Also... There's a snake nearby. I can only hope to join a forgiving guild where my shortcomings are balanced by my great dress outfits, and pithy comments. A do see a lot of hope in fireworks, light beams, pet tracking, etc. I had high hopes for a map making crafting option, but that's a lost hope.
Exactly the kind of social gaming we want, no? Someone who's not great at orienteering will be accepted by those that value their other qualities. Like-minded folks will find each other. No one is good at everything and the kind of people that demand perfection will be the lonely ones, not us imperfect souls.
As for cartology, last I heard, it was not planned for release, but was still a popular concept with the team. They certainly have spoken pretty recently about rough maps being available that we could hopefully self-annotate and use to help us find our way around, especially if we all have 'the same' maps. "We're near the eastern ear-shaped wrinkle of the mountain icon south of Avalia"
I don't see a UI indicator as any more or less "realistic" or intrusive than most other user interface elements. It's a tool that helps parties get together and stay together. A rather arbitrary line to draw to me. Having to communicate how much hp or mana/resources one has to the party is "social" too, why show those on the UI? Why even lock frames for party members to the side? Names floating above heads?
An arrow isn't always a perfect tool and leaves plenty enough room (especially with the verticality of Pantheon) for "social" elements of "where am I, where are you?"
I'd much rather have that than people having to slot beacon-like abilities on their hotbars to try and signal party members (and everyone else in the world, "which beacon are you? 3 are going off"). Let alone people blasting these long range beacons for funsies or to be disorienting etc both in the wild or while sitting in towns etc.
As someone who is playing Embers Adrift currently I think this is a must. I get what some people are saying but I think it would be a massive turn off for a lot of people if it was very time consuming to find party members in a game which will already be slow paced. I like the idea of it only becoming available from a certain distance apart.
I get both sides. I really do. I found it frustrating in the last pre-alpha to try and find the party - especially in the dark! especially when they were busy talking about some danger they were in and not how I could find them - but I found that withinin just a few hours I was getting to know the lay of the land and getting to be able to find my way around and understand what POIs others were talking about and the feeling of overcoming that frustration by self-improvement and ability and getting to know my party was great.
I just think we need to be very careful when suggesting we *need* UI elements that replace social gaming just because it can be frustrating.
Of course arrows are no worse than other UI elements. Of course some UI elements are necessary, even though they replace potential social elements. For example, it is simply not practical or even possible to communiate your health to other party members in real time and there are lots of other examples. As I've said, I don't want a survival simulator. Mana is more interesting, as mages tend to shout "Out of mana" anyway, because it's *not* something people look at often...
There are also aspects that absolutely can be implemented in a way that is more meaningful and realistic.
For exploration to feel meaningful, for environment to be something we don't just appreciate as 'pretty background', the world needs to be somewhere we can get lost and need to make some effort not to. It needs to be somewhere that *if* we get separated from our group it's a real danger or is at least, yes, an 'effort' to overcome, ie. there is consequence to acting recklessly and not sticking with your party. There is consequence to not going back to a relatively safe and easy-to-find spot to fetch a new group member.
Otherwise this very important aspect of exploration and adventuring is relegated, just like many other aspects of other modern MMORPGs, to be a 'just look at the UI for a bit' thing.
Of course some people will be 'turned off' by 'slow' aspects to the game. There are lots of game types that I don't really like. Sports. Large-scale strategy. Deathmatch arena. But I wouldn't expect those games to change what makes them great for those that *do* like them to suit me - in fact I would hate to think that studios would do that. Unfortunately, they do, and more and more so in recent times.
A huge aspect of Pantheon is that they are 'undoing' a lot of what has been done to the MMORPG genre *because* of studios changing the fundamentals to suit greater mass market appeal. VR have realised there is a more-than-large-enough subset of MMORPG players that are deperate for something that isn't an unchallenging gamified speedrun.
Again, while I'm not suggesting that *everything* that has happened is to the detriment of the genre or that *everything* should be 'old school' and challenging to the point of being un-fun, I *am* suggesting we need to take a step back whenever we come across something we feel is 'frustrating' and whenever we are tempted to replace that with a convenience and really think about what the wider implications of that change would be.
I do think there could be *something* that addresses the issue, though. Something that is more meaningful and realistic. Perhaps something that pings up an arrow only when someone in the party moves out of line-of-sight, but then doesn't update like a magical pointer. That would more accurately represent a character 'realising' someone has 'left', which is very important before deciding to move off, but not too unrealistic and trivialising.
Flares could only show up for party members. Not a realistic aspect, but a realistic feature made more useful because it's not confused with other party's flares.
That's just off the top of my head right now. The point is I'm certain there is something better for the game than UI arrows.
disposalist said:I just think we need to be very careful when suggesting we *need* UI elements that replace social gaming just because it can be frustrating.
I don't view a UI element that helps you find your party as something that replaces social gaming, if anyting it encourages social gaming. Dots on the compass would work too. Either way, these UI elements should be limited to a short range, so when someone joins a party, they must still communicate their general location. These elements simply take the pain out of finding their exact location once you're within close proximity. It just makes sense for game with no minimap.
disposalist said:I found it frustrating in the last pre-alpha to try and find the party
Just a reminder that even mentioning you're in PA to the public is a violation of the NDA.
Flossie said:disposalist said:I just think we need to be very careful when suggesting we *need* UI elements that replace social gaming just because it can be frustrating.
I don't view a UI element that helps you find your party as something that replaces social gaming, if anyting it encourages social gaming. Dots on the compass would work too. Either way, these UI elements should be limited to a short range, so when someone joins a party, they must still communicate their general location. These elements simply take the pain out of finding their exact location once you're within close proximity. It just makes sense for game with no minimap.
Not to argue for the sake of it, but you can find your party by talking to them, which is a social activity, which silently looking at a UI arrow (or compass dots) replaces. Yes there are still possible social aspects to grouping up and staying grouped, but they are reduced by UI arrows.
I agree it could be to a greater or lesser extent depending on the implementation, might not be enough to worry about, but it literally does remove/replace some degree of the social aspect.
Also, since the point of no minimap is to encourage natural exploration, it could also be said it does not make sense to have an arrow/dot UI element make up for a minimap UI element not being there.
Flossie said:disposalist said:I found it frustrating in the last pre-alpha to try and find the party
Just a reminder that even mentioning you're in PA to the public is a violation of the NDA.
I don't think it is. Pretty sure I've asked before about it. Something to do with pledge level not being a secret somehow, so whether or not you have pre-alpha access is obvious. You can tell from the Discord whether someone is VIP or not (so have pre-alpha access), though I think it was some other way last time I asked.
I've appeared in a Cohh stream too at one point, hehe.
Happy for Kilsin to correct though.
Darch said:Regardless of what all characters have, I think the Ranger's tracking ability should absolutely have a visible indicator (because staring at the chat doesn't "feel" like tracking). The indicator could be an arrow or glowing foot prints, idc... but there needs to be something for the Ranger. Perhaps it could change brightness/color depending on proximity too.
Tracking in EQ was quite dumb...
"Your target is to the right"
"Your target is to the right"
[...]
This could be done visually without the use of an immersion breaking glowing line. Every X distance there could be a visible indicator meant to convey footsteps, broken branches, tramples brush, blood, etc. It is only visible at close range and various factors can determine how far apart the indicators are and how long they last. This would feel much more like real tracking and would involve some player skill. To account for a moving target, this method would either need to keep track of the target's path or not generate indicators until the previous one is found. This is necessary since it doesn't make any sense to have the indicators move position as the target moves.
disposalist said:Darch said:Regardless of what all characters have, I think the Ranger's tracking ability should absolutely have a visible indicator (because staring at the chat doesn't "feel" like tracking). The indicator could be an arrow or glowing foot prints, idc... but there needs to be something for the Ranger. Perhaps it could change brightness/color depending on proximity too.
Tracking in EQ was quite dumb...
"Your target is to the right"
"Your target is to the right"
"Your target is straight ahead and to the right"
"Your target is behind you and to the left"
"Your target is behind you and to the left"
"Your target is above you and to the right"
"You have lost track of your target"
Meanwhile you just stood there and turned in tiny circles, waiting for the next text message, trying to get your target straight in front of you.
I also still think Rangers should have an ability to flare (outdoors) or use heightened senses (indoor) to be able to detect targets through obstacles at certain distances. (Similar to Daredevil or maybe Batman's sonar tech). That would make the Ranger highly desireable... compared to the Monk and Rogue which both have incredible tool kits.You got an indicator in chat like you might spot an indicator - broken twig - spore - footprint.
The indicator would give you a direction, so you'd move in that direction until you saw another indicator.
"stood there and turned in tiny circles" Carefully looked for tracking clues
"waiting for the next text message" until you find another indication of your prey's movements
"trying to get your target straight in front of you" that tells you which direction they went
Pretty much exactly like tracking, no?
Whereas an arrow letting you automatically and constantly just 'know' exactly what direction your prey is not really?
I agree that there could be a better way than chat messages, but it's way more realistic than a UI arrow. A direction indicator on the ground would be better and more realistic (though nothing 'glowing' that you could see from a long way away).
Tracking is something that Red Dead Redemption 2 does really well. As you track, footprints sort of "glow" on the ground, but they're not there "forever". They eventually go away, and if your target gets far enough away the tracks disappear as well.
Vandraad said:I always found it hilarious that an EQ1 ranger could 'track' a target that never actually moved, just somehow knowing it was up. I hope we dont see that stupidity in Pantheon.
Though it would be funny if some of the above were implemented in Pantheon, making tracking actually less efficient than someone just running around looking for a mob/checking known locations. The ranger chasing clues and prompts just to show up and find the corpse.
Vandraad said:I always found it hilarious that an EQ1 ranger could 'track' a target that never actually moved, just somehow knowing it was up. I hope we dont see that stupidity in Pantheon.
Well, a monster just spawning and not moving is 'stupid' ie. not realistic. It's all analogs.
Ranger's tracking skill was just an analog for the reality, which would be, whatever they decide to look for, there would probably be specific tell-tale signs all over the place if that is where that creature 'lives' and there would probably be more fresh signs if that creature were alive, ie. 'up'.
Not to mention a ranger's skills pretty much bordered on druidic magic, so... magic.
It's all suspension of disbelief, though, I guess. It's a personal thing; what we find too jarringly unbelievable.
