I ask because people who are making this game saying the game is not niche, to me that means they do not know or do not have a target audiance because that is what niche means. Why run from a word just because someone sees it as bad? why not challenge the misconceptiong and explain to people what it reallly means? I know, i know paths of least resistance. Why take the time to correct people and just change the wording to "target audiance", but how long until that is seen as a negative? What will we change it to next? "Scope Demographics"?
I think what they were trying to imply is that they are aiming for a slightly wider target audience and not just the current "niche" audience. They want to make a game that covers the old school "niche" but goes beyond that with new unique features and is capable of pulling in and retaining new people as well.
You are right that it sounded wierd the way they were saying it, but I feel like it was more a semantics/common use/wording issue than anything. It could definately be explained better though.
Mostly cause a small civil war started over defining that word.
Here have a Baz Is Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen TOO Niche? - YouTube
I see it like this: There *is* a niche audience that Pantheon will make *very* happy. It is great that VR are not afraid to 'target' this niche, when some of the concepts that make 'the niche' very happy *might* put off some of the modern MMORPG mass market.
HOWEVER I (and VR, I'm sure) fully expect Pantheon to *also* appeal to a *much* wider audience than the ecstatic hardcore old school niche, because it is not *only* targeting that niche and, at the end of the day, great is great and the game will be great.
There are a ton of players out there that don't even know what old school or modern MMORPGs *are* and will simply try it and love it.
There are a ton of players out there that *think* they don't like old school features and mechanics but have never really tried them in modern games and will try Pantheon and love it.
There are a ton of players out there that think they can't handle a social MMORPG and won't want to group up, but will find it takes no effort whatsoever and will love it.
There are a tone of players out there that think they can't handle a challenging not-so-casual-as-others game, but will find it is *so* much better it's worth it, or that they *can* play it casually if they want.
Etc. VR *are* making an 'old school' game, but they are very much taking old school forward and making it accessible to everyone.
Yes there are some modern MMORPG players that won't like the emphasis on grouping or the level of challenge, but it is *them* that will prove to be the 'niche'.
Basically, yes, VR are willfully, intentionally and happily developing some features and mechanics that feel like they are targeting a 'niche' audience, but the point is, it is only a 'niche' that *know* they will love the game (mostly the backers here!) and actually, just like when Everquest came out, the players didn't *know* they were going to love it, but they did.
TL;DR: Yes, they are targeting what currently perhaps some would term a 'niche' audience, but they know very well it will have much wider appeal, so to *say* they are targeting a niche audience is unnecessarily self-limiting, unhelpful and incorrect, really.
VR *just* tweeted a relevant IBTimes Article
Disposalist pretty well summed it up, I agree with most if not all of what he said.
I will add that in order to call it or agree it's niche, they would then need to explain or define what that niche is. Anything they do like that is going to alienate a subset of players with the attitude of "oh well i don't want that, I'm not even going to try it". It was mentioned by VR (might have been Brad himself, maybe in his AMA) that they are concerned with doing this, they don't want to loose potential customers before they even get the game launched. They want players to try the game once finished, THEN decide if they want to stick with it.
And as far as Baz's video on Niche being much help, Sorry Baz love ya and I subsribe and watch all your stuff, but you loose me in that one from your very first comment "Visionary Realms has made it clear who the target audience is for Pantheon"
NO they haven't (and purpsosly so I beleve)! Their definition is vague and open ended as it can get. Yes they rule out Football Players, and Sports car fanatics but other than that "blah blah, blah..Emersive Open World Fantasy setting..blah blah, blah" could be anything from Raid Shadow Legends or Evony to EQ or WOW depending on a persons level of imagination and there Idea of what each of those buzz words mean.
Back to the OP, What would be the benifit, the upside, to concede that Pantheon is a niche, and then inevitabley have to define what that niche is? Any players that might be looking for that niche are already watching Pantheon.
My question is why are folks so up in arms about VR defining their game to reach as much of an audience as they can? VR has stated, quite plainly, that the game is the SAME. They are just changing how they market the game. I don't understand how folks can, after reading that very clear and understandable for the health and long term growth of the game statement, want to continue to argue about it like they have been attacked somehow. It's a really strange thing to be witnessing.
It's like folks want to limit everything about Pantheon to their own point of view and act like they know what's best for a game to exist that is primarily a crowdfunded game and not being pay to win. That is a very hard thing to do in today's gaming and is very uncharted waters(for it's scale) that none of us have definitive answers on how to navigate. VR is doing everything they can to ensure the game's long term survivial without changing the reason for them creating the game in the first place, it's tenets and core values.
Lots of folks who will play Pantheon don't have this game on their radar yet. Lots of folks who have never played an MMO will want to try this game. Why make a statement that the game is not for them, when they might be a new generation of players that will fall in love with an old school MMO just...like...YOU...did?
Not every young person or game player or non game player of any age is interested in actionfest gaming. Some of them(from a few hundred to a few hundreds of thousands) maybe looking for something just like Pantheon. VR's job is to put themselves in a position to attract as many of them as they can. They don't have to change ANYTHING about Pantheon's actual in game development to do that.
I don't think most of those complaining really and sincerely listens to what VR is saying. I think folks hear the words 'not niche' and close their minds to any meaningful reason given by VR as to why they chose this marketing strategy.
I repeat, the game has NOT changed, only the marketing of the game has changed. If you can't sincerely appreciate that, then the discussion will only devolve into you creating your own narrative of what Pantheon is and being dismissive of how VR chooses to market Pantheon for all of our benefit.
it seems like everyone is looking at niche to mean "small target audiance". That is not niche it just basically means target audiance. MMOrpgs is a niche, First Person Shooters is a niche, Action games is a niche, Adventures games is a niche, hell gaming in of itself is a niche. Basically you can have a player base millions but it still a niche.
Dikenzu said:My question is why are folks so up in arms about VR defining their game to reach as much of an audience as they can? VR has stated, quite plainly, that the game is the SAME. They are just changing how they market the game. I don't understand how folks can, after reading that very clear and understandable for the health and long-term growth of the game statement, want to continue to argue about it like they have been attacked somehow. It's a really strange thing to be witnessing.
It's like folks want to limit everything about Pantheon to their own point of view and act like they know what's best for a game to exist that is primarily a crowdfunded game and not being pay to win. That is a very hard thing to do in today's gaming and is very uncharted waters(for its scale) that none of us have definitive answers on how to navigate. VR is doing everything it can to ensure the game's long-term survival without changing the reason for its creating the game in the first place, its tenets, and its core values.
Lots of folks who will play Pantheon don't have this game on their radar yet. Lots of folks who have never played an MMO will want to try this game. Why make a statement that the game is not for them when they might be a new generation of players that will fall in love with an old-school MMO just...like...YOU...did?
Not every young person or game player or nongame player of any age is interested in actionfest gaming. Some of them(from a few hundred to a few hundred thousand) may be looking for something just like Pantheon. VR's job is to put themselves in a position to attract as many of them as they can. They don't have to change ANYTHING about Pantheon's actual in-game development to do that.
I don't think most of those complaining really and sincerely listen to what VR is saying. I think folks hear the words 'not niche' and close their minds to any meaningful reason given by VR as to why they chose this marketing strategy.
I repeat the game has NOT changed, only the marketing of the game has changed. If you can't sincerely appreciate that, then the discussion will only devolve into you creating your own narrative of what Pantheon is and being dismissive of how VR chooses to market Pantheon for all of our benefits.
Wholeheartedly agree with Dikenzu on this. I believe VR is making a good move to expand the player base without betraying its tenets, and long-term backers. Just my 2 coppers
Money.
If you have a 2 person studio and your biggest expense is a unity license, then you can afford to sell only a few copies. When you invest millions like VR, and have a dozen people on staff, then you need to sell big. A small dev team can focus on 1 type of player niche, they're own systems and gameplay. A big team can't afford to specialize as much, and people worry their unique system will be the one on the chopping block to facilitate mass market appeal. A big dev game that gets a reputation for being niche, runs the risk of losing a vast portion of their player base from reviews before they even try the game. Niche label = doom in Pantheon's case. They won't have the big studio marketing budget required to combat a niche rumor.
Mujinn said:it seems like everyone is looking at niche to mean "small target audiance". That is not niche it just basically means target audiance. MMOrpgs is a niche, First Person Shooters is a niche, Action games is a niche, Adventures games is a niche, hell gaming in of itself is a niche. Basically you can have a player base millions but it still a niche.
The problem with niche isn't what devs say to each other, or their plainned audience. The problem is reputation, once earned is almost always permanent.
Ok, know how- hmm the best way I can express it is... Ok Horse people, people that have horses, to breed or to race. At the top end, the nicest people in the world: the owners, breeders, trainers, etc . All wealthy , etc. Down one notch like admin, school trainers, venue managers, stable managers- all backbiting, mean spirited, evil trolls that look out for their own ends and prevent anyone from getting ahead anywhere. At the very bottom? the students(usually children of the very wealthy but not known) stable hands, venue workers, ticket takers, blacksmiths- nicest people in the world on par with the top end. I imagine the player base might be peppered with the same. I hope the "niche" players however will be different in that those so "niched" like actively on the forums will be influencing the general mood of the game, those on the high end like investors or agnels will be playing and subtley influencing just with their pressence- like you'll feel it when you group with them, have a really good time put them on friends and somehow not run into them again or rarely but always hear about them in the back ground (like movie stars going incognito in MMO's)- and then everyone else from which there will be some toxicity but for which the "nichers" will be able to assuage and create a general "milleu"
