eunichron said:The issue with online games is that, with infinite respawns, scarcity ceases to exist as a factor in resource distribution.
This is the fundamental truth of why inflation always exists in MMOs. It isn't even coin, but every resource in an MMO is effectively infinite. But those things must be infinite otherwise any player who shows up years after release cannot come into a world that is completely devoid of resources.
In economics, controlled inflation is actually a good thing. That said, mudflation comes because people always have more money than brains. While on an individual level the average player doesn't want to overspend (in game and in real life) they could just refuse to pay for some item/service that has a price point above what they want to pay regardless of the amount of money they have. The problem is that there is always some subset of the population that will spend any amount to get what they want right then and there and it is those people who drive up the price of player sold items. If, collectively, people just refused to buy products that continually get marked up higher and higher, those people selling it would reduce their prices.
Market PvP is a real thing. Finding those products that people are selling low then buying up every one you can then try to resell it at a higher cost? If people watched pricing over the long term and noticed the mark up and then refused to buy it, that person would now have a ton of product that is not worth anything more than the price at which they first purchased it.
God topic Fazool!
The best way to handle inflation in games is the same way to handle it the same way in real life.
More goods - the more of something there is, the less it is worth. This tends to scale with the game's growing economy. yes, people can pay more because there is more money in circulation, but players are still only what the perceive the worth to be, and sellers will always try to outbid each other. The other way is consumables. Raiding tier players should need consumables that cost drastically more than lower level consumables. That's easy enough for game designers. This can be driven as Fazool said, by the time it takes to gather the resources and create the items, or the price at NPCs.
More servies - The MOST UNTAPPED in all MMOs. The only way to get money out of circulation, thereby decreasing the burden on new players, is to offer more services in-game that players want. Everyone is always talking about pay to win or cash shops. Some of the plethora of ideas on what you could possibly put in a cash shop can be paid with in-game currency. NPCs offer:
services for changing your UI,
some form of transmog,
banks have been mentioned already,
what about an NPC that follows you around and you can give him stuff to carry for you, doubling your carry weight max.
How about gold for faction?
How about an NPC that you pay to herald an announcement in a town for a day for you.
How about paying for an NPC to deliver consumables to you in a dungeon when you don't want to run back out, and you just meet them at a campsite 30 mins after you order the supplies.
Obviously, many of these mean much more to a higher level player than a lower level player, so you could charge a good bit of money for the services, removing money from the economy and keeping inflation in check. My 2 cents.
Benonai said:More servies - The MOST UNTAPPED in all MMOs. The only way to get money out of circulation, thereby decreasing the burden on new players, is to offer more services in-game that players want. Everyone is always talking about pay to win or cash shops. Some of the plethora of ideas on what you could possibly put in a cash shop can be paid with in-game currency. NPCs offer:
services for changing your UI,
some form of transmog,
banks have been mentioned already,
what about an NPC that follows you around and you can give him stuff to carry for you, doubling your carry weight max.
How about gold for faction?
How about an NPC that you pay to herald an announcement in a town for a day for you.
How about paying for an NPC to deliver consumables to you in a dungeon when you don't want to run back out, and you just meet them at a campsite 30 mins after you order the supplies.
Obviously, many of these mean much more to a higher level player than a lower level player, so you could charge a good bit of money for the services, removing money from the economy and keeping inflation in check. My 2 cents.
And if I decide that I need none of those? Then what. For you example of changing the UI, what if I don't feel the need, or want, to change it? Why would I want an NPC herald to do some announcement? Paying an NPC to deliver things? I'll just always make sure to carry enough with me because that's what I've always had to do.
A money sink is only a money sink if everyone must use it without exception with no way to avoid it.
This issue is explained very well (and succinctly) by Extra Credits in these two 8 minute videos:
Here are some ideas I think will help:
By targeting most of the currency removal on wealthier players, most players don't feel a constant need to farm for currency since they aren't being taxed on everything. This is necessary since if everyone feels like they can't afford anything, this will cause more farming, which only makes it worse.
Vandraad said:A money sink is only a money sink if everyone must use it without exception with no way to avoid it.
IMO:
Yep, completely true in any logical system that has infinite supply over time, like MMOs.
Hence why I recommend having an unavoidable NPC-interacttion-required cost attached to altering any dropped piece of equipment (gear, armor, weapons, etc) to make it equippable or useable.
That way, it's entirely up to the player what they want to loot and then equip, and you can have that cost be minor or major as a design goal.
It permits tremendous flexibility in resource and loot generation, because it no longer matters how much there is, as none of those have any coin currency value without being made useable, first.
Also, it aligns very nicely with a donation, sacrifice, and worship loop, whereby both un-usable & useable items can be donated for favor with your diety, NPC guild, or PC guild in trade for NPC services.
Counterfleche said:Set all vendors to only buy up to a limited supply of any particular item total, and have the price scale with supply and demand. This will make some loot items virtually worthless since if no one buys it from the vendor, the vendor won't buy any from players.
Not just buy, but sell too. This is economics 101. A vendor has batwings as a supply item marked for 1cp. You buy 10 for 10cp. You try to buy another one and now it's 2cp. Why? Demand has gone up and its 'supply' has gone down (even though its supply is infinite just for sake of argument). Keep buying more batwings and the price really starts to increase dramatically.
I've said this for years that vendors should employ supply/demand economics as part of their buy/sell strategy. A vendor in an area populated with wolves would not be paying much for wolf pelts because the supply is high. But it would pay alot for bear pelts because bears do not live in that area.
Counterfleche said:Low item drop rate and low harvest node spawn rate.
That does not fix the underlying problem of infinite supply. And as any person who knows anything about statistics will tell you, even something that has a low chance of success can succeed every time. Sure, the probability is low, but it is not zero. Eventually even 'rare' items become commonplace over time.
Counterfleche said:Create a wealth tax that only the top 10% or so see, and make it progressively bigger the wealthier someone is.
By targeting most of the currency removal on wealthier players, most players don't feel a constant need to farm for currency since they aren't being taxed on everything. This is necessary since if everyone feels like they can't afford anything, this will cause more farming, which only makes it worse.
This would require every item in the game to have some set, unchanging value, for 'wealth' to be correctly calculated. It can't just be calculated on coin otherwise people will move coin to other items, such as gems, to 'hold' their wealth. A tradeskiller might have a lot of wealth tied up in materials but very little actual currency. They haven't sold anything so are they actually rich? No, not until they sell their items. An unsold item may have potential value, but until it has no actual value currently.
Vendors should have a preset bank amount, and they can buy and sell to players and that bank fluctuates accordingly. If the merchant has no bank left, they will not buy anything from players until the server sends more funds.
There could be a daily or weekly funding of merchants that the server does, to ensure a merchant doesn't remain penniless for eternity.
Merchants should also not have an unlimited supply of an item either. Again, they can be restocked occasionally.
As far as players market, this is where an interface comes in to help, if people can easily browse what players are selling and compare prices, this helps control the market price of items. Someone selling during low population times can charge more, than someone selling during prime hours. But selling should be an activity unto itself, and not just as simple as listing an item then go off adventuring. I like the idea of markets in each city, that also serve as a way to draw players to the cities on a regular basis.
But all in all, there is no stopping mudflation, nor should there be, just slow it down a bit.
I like the natural emergent bag-space pressure. No room? no looting it. Too bad. It's only pixels. If you have to drop something on the ground and walk away from it to make room? so be it. Let the passerby from Lacadaemon discover it.
It is meet and right so to do.
Kinda like the concept of "inherent vice" in shipping insurance. But I like that the archaic term of "vice" is carried over, like a police vice squad. Eggs can be insured but are not covered for loss because of their inherent vice (naughty- naughty~?! they haven't even hatched yet to show any naughtiness that would be considered vice!) because of their shells, their shells have "inherent vice" in that they are prone to breakage so they can be insured, but cannot be recovered due to loss. "All the kings horsemen and all the kings men..."
Vandraad said:Counterfleche said:Set all vendors to only buy up to a limited supply of any particular item total, and have the price scale with supply and demand. This will make some loot items virtually worthless since if no one buys it from the vendor, the vendor won't buy any from players.
Not just buy, but sell too. This is economics 101. A vendor has batwings as a supply item marked for 1cp. You buy 10 for 10cp. You try to buy another one and now it's 2cp. Why? Demand has gone up and its 'supply' has gone down (even though its supply is infinite just for sake of argument). Keep buying more batwings and the price really starts to increase dramatically.
I've said this for years that vendors should employ supply/demand economics as part of their buy/sell strategy. A vendor in an area populated with wolves would not be paying much for wolf pelts because the supply is high. But it would pay alot for bear pelts because bears do not live in that area.
I agree and would take it further. NPC vendors should only sell items they've purchased from players, so no infinite supply. This helps keep crafting and harvesting more viable without the need for crazy high volume
Vandraad said:Counterfleche said:Low item drop rate and low harvest node spawn rate.
That does not fix the underlying problem of infinite supply. And as any person who knows anything about statistics will tell you, even something that has a low chance of success can succeed every time. Sure, the probability is low, but it is not zero. Eventually even 'rare' items become commonplace over time.
It does mitigate the problem substantially. Every time the game creates an item, it's like printing money. So reducing this rate substantially will slow inflation. Infinite supply is theoretical and requires infinite time (and some infinities are bigger than others). A good measure would be some kind of value generated per player per minute minus value removed per player per minute.
Vandraad said:Counterfleche said:Create a wealth tax that only the top 10% or so see, and make it progressively bigger the wealthier someone is.
By targeting most of the currency removal on wealthier players, most players don't feel a constant need to farm for currency since they aren't being taxed on everything. This is necessary since if everyone feels like they can't afford anything, this will cause more farming, which only makes it worse.
This would require every item in the game to have some set, unchanging value, for 'wealth' to be correctly calculated. It can't just be calculated on coin otherwise people will move coin to other items, such as gems, to 'hold' their wealth. A tradeskiller might have a lot of wealth tied up in materials but very little actual currency. They haven't sold anything so are they actually rich? No, not until they sell their items. An unsold item may have potential value, but until it has no actual value currently.
The wealth value would require a good formula, but can be done. Each item above a certain value can have its average sale price used as its current value, thus creating a good approximation that adjusts over time. Other ways to tax wealth is to have a reasonably limited inventory and local bank for free. Additional bank storage can be rented, and the more you get the more it costs. Storage is used as a proxy for wealth. Note that bulk, cheap items used in crafting should take up little space, so this isn't punishing crafter.
There is no easy answer to this issue, especially if Pantheon won't tie game currency in with real money to act as a reserve currency. But I feel strongly that most major money sinks should hit the wealthiest players since part of avoiding runaway inflation is not making everyone feel as though they have to constantly farm just to afford the basics.
Counterfleche said:I agree and would take it further. NPC vendors should only sell items they've purchased from players, so no infinite supply. This helps keep crafting and harvesting more viable without the need for crazy high volume
Some infinite supply is needed, for newbie areas. Starting food/drink, for example. But I agree that NPCs should not, as a rule, have infinite supply. Yes, they should start with some items in stock with a set quantity which, when sold out, does not reappear until some time later*. It should then be reselling those things that players sell to it, with a markup of course.
*I say 'later' because this would tie in perfectly with the notion of trade caravans which travel the world. You see a trade caravan moving around from vendor to vendor, pausing briefly, after which point the default items are restocked. That vendor in a hut in some small campsite/outpost needs a resupply somehow and I'd rather it not happen auto-magically. Physical NPC trade caravans is what would make it all feel more real.
Vandraad said:Some infinite supply is needed, for newbie areas. Starting food/drink, for example. But I agree that NPCs should not, as a rule, have infinite supply. Yes, they should start with some items in stock with a set quantity which, when sold out, does not reappear until some time later*. It should then be reselling those things that players sell to it, with a markup of course.
I agree on having newbie supplies excluded from this limit. It's hard to argue against infinite tacos.
Vandraad said:*I say 'later' because this would tie in perfectly with the notion of trade caravans which travel the world. You see a trade caravan moving around from vendor to vendor, pausing briefly, after which point the default items are restocked. That vendor in a hut in some small campsite/outpost needs a resupply somehow and I'd rather it not happen auto-magically. Physical NPC trade caravans is what would make it all feel more real.
That makes sense. The restock could even be helped along by player actions, like assisting the caravan. I'd love to see a basic, repeatable 'escort caravan' quest. It could be a good way for lower levels to get to different cities and offer a pseudo solo experience since the caravan would have NPCs helping with any hostile encounters.
Counterfleche said:That makes sense. The restock could even be helped along by player actions, like assisting the caravan. I'd love to see a basic, repeatable 'escort caravan' quest. It could be a good way for lower levels to get to different cities and offer a pseudo solo experience since the caravan would have NPCs helping with any hostile encounters.
Its interesting you brought this up because, back in the long long ago, this was actually discussed at length by Brad to give players something to do to help out with their cities. You could choose to support a trade caravan from City 1 to City 2 and throughout the journey it would be attacked by NPCs . You had to defend the caravan and, if it reached its destination, you would receive money and faction. These caravans were also going to be used for characters to move themselves from city to city offline. You would pay a fee to attach your character to a caravan from, say, Thronefast to Wild's End, then log out. So long as you logged in >8 hours later, your character would then appear in Wild's End. It let you move around the world but not too conveniently.
Counterfleche said: ... Every time the game creates an item, it's like printing money. ...
Vandraad said:A money sink is only a money sink if everyone must use it without exception with no way to avoid it.
Uh... you lost me on that one. Why? Why MUST it be used without exception? A money sink is a money sink regardless of how many people use it. There's no need for EVERYONE to do anything. We are talking about ways to ease the inevitable inflation. And paying ten silver more for wolf pelts in the desert vs the forest ain't gonna cut it, son. You need sinks that are level appropriate so you're not sucking money from the lower tier players but from the higher tier. You must do it my way and only my way!!!!
And the reasoning behind "I'll only do this because it's the only thing I've ever done" is ridiculous. That's like saying, "Why would I pay some stupid drood for a port when I can run. I've always ran before!" That seems like nonsense.
Benonai said:Vandraad said:A money sink is only a money sink if everyone must use it without exception with no way to avoid it.
Uh... you lost me on that one. Why? Why MUST it be used without exception? A money sink is a money sink regardless of how many people use it. There's no need for EVERYONE to do anything. We are talking about ways to ease the inevitable inflation. And paying ten silver more for wolf pelts in the desert vs the forest ain't gonna cut it, son. You need sinks that are level appropriate so you're not sucking money from the lower tier players but from the higher tier. You must do it my way and only my way!!!!
And the reasoning behind "I'll only do this because it's the only thing I've ever done" is ridiculous. That's like saying, "Why would I pay some stupid drood for a port when I can run. I've always ran before!" That seems like nonsense.
The whole purpose of a money sink is to remove money from the economy. If such a sink is something that everyone can avoid, then it is not doing its job. So, yes, son, if there are to be money sinks they must be things that players cannot avoid. Of course, son, they can be level appropriate and should be level appropriate..only not avoidable..son.
Iksar said:I don't see why all sinks have to be things players can't avoid. There is room for all kinds. ...
IMO:
There's only so many ways to solve this problem. There are many ways, it's true, but the number is small when you have to consider how attractive the solution will be to the customers.
And it gets smaller when you start talking about what's required to change to actually fix it.
Just to give you some idea of what kinds of things would potentially need to change, to actually stop, partially or completely, inflation, in an artificial economy such as Pantheon.
--
Nothing is tradeable between players. Nothing.
Nothing can be bought from NPCs.
Nothing can be sold to NPCs.
There is no coin currency of any kind anywhere in the game world.
Players get no resources from the combat loop. Only and exclusively experience to increase skills to level. Nothing else. There is no loot, nor is there any other reward of any kind.
No resources obtained via ANY game loop have any coin currency value. Nada.
No interim or final products from ANY game loop (including harvesting, combat, crafting, and more) have any coin currency value. Zero.
You have no inventory. You cannot carry anything. All you have is your gear, (armor, weapons).
There are no banks, vaults, storage chests, or similar.
There is no loot window, trade window, or the ability to drop or pick up items from anyone, the ground, or anywhere in the game world.
--
Ok, so do any of those sound Fun, on their own? :) How about all of them?
Probably not Fun for the majority of your target demographic.
People like to be generous, they like to participate in barter, trade, or economic transactions, generally. I have this, I want this. Pretty basic stuff.
But that's the kind of .. shocking? abrupt? polarizing? design changes that actually make an attempt at addressing inflation.
And every one of them, out of context? It reduces your target demographic.
Which is why.. a solution that requires exactly one "thing" (in-game mechanic) to solve the problem, namely, a single unavoidable resource/money/coin/currency sink, isn't really all that bad.
You can keep all of the loops you could ever want in the MMO, add one step, just one, and stop inflation entirely. Heck, you can even have every mob drop every single piece of equipment and/or body part they could possibly ever have, from clothing to hair, skin, bones, teeth, scales, organs, fluids, essences, fur, armor, weapons, jewelry, accessories, food, drink, books, journals, plants, herbs, flowers, reagents, consumables, potions, bags, packs, tools, you name it. All of it..
..and it has absolutely no effect on inflation whatsoever, provided you are willing to consider a single unavoidable resource/money/coin/currency sink.
Vandraad said:Benonai said:Vandraad said:A money sink is only a money sink if everyone must use it without exception with no way to avoid it.
Uh... you lost me on that one. Why? Why MUST it be used without exception? A money sink is a money sink regardless of how many people use it. There's no need for EVERYONE to do anything. We are talking about ways to ease the inevitable inflation. And paying ten silver more for wolf pelts in the desert vs the forest ain't gonna cut it, son. You need sinks that are level appropriate so you're not sucking money from the lower tier players but from the higher tier. You must do it my way and only my way!!!!
And the reasoning behind "I'll only do this because it's the only thing I've ever done" is ridiculous. That's like saying, "Why would I pay some stupid drood for a port when I can run. I've always ran before!" That seems like nonsense.
The whole purpose of a money sink is to remove money from the economy. If such a sink is something that everyone can avoid, then it is not doing its job. So, yes, son, if there are to be money sinks they must be things that players cannot avoid. Of course, son, they can be level appropriate and should be level appropriate..only not avoidable..son.
I think you are partially correct.
Money sinks don't each have to affect everyone, but there needs to be enough money sinks, that everyone IS affected.
Wizards buying regeants, warriors buying sharpening stones or paying for equipment repair, rangers buying arrows.
Trades people buying Coal for furnaces, or wood for cooking fires.
Maybe access to a class guild in town charges a fee, inside are class specific crafting stations or some perk for belonging.
Caravan travel fees, trade fees.
And on an on, little things that add nothing to advancement but could entice someone to pay a fee. Different play styles would result in different fees, but if done correctly, most everyone would be hit by some fees.
Vandraad said:Benonai said:Vandraad said:A money sink is only a money sink if everyone must use it without exception with no way to avoid it.
Uh... you lost me on that one. Why? Why MUST it be used without exception? A money sink is a money sink regardless of how many people use it. There's no need for EVERYONE to do anything. We are talking about ways to ease the inevitable inflation. And paying ten silver more for wolf pelts in the desert vs the forest ain't gonna cut it, son. You need sinks that are level appropriate so you're not sucking money from the lower tier players but from the higher tier. You must do it my way and only my way!!!!
And the reasoning behind "I'll only do this because it's the only thing I've ever done" is ridiculous. That's like saying, "Why would I pay some stupid drood for a port when I can run. I've always ran before!" That seems like nonsense.
The whole purpose of a money sink is to remove money from the economy. If such a sink is something that everyone can avoid, then it is not doing its job. So, yes, son, if there are to be money sinks they must be things that players cannot avoid. Of course, son, they can be level appropriate and should be level appropriate..only not avoidable..son.
Son, just because one crotchety old coot doesn't want to take part doesn't mean it isn't a money sink. There are pleny of money sinks that don't involve every single player, son. What about crafting, son? Taxis in EQ? Alcohol in EQ? Mounts? Buying faction? All perfectly optional, son. The whole purpose of "a" money sink is to remove "some" money from the economy, not to remove "alllllll" the excess money from the economy. It's a multi-tiered approach and every little bit helps. I fail to see how making wolf skins more costly where they don't spawn is the single economic fix that solves all of Terminus' problems either. How bout a bit of both? Son?
vjek said:Iksar said:I don't see why all sinks have to be things players can't avoid. There is room for all kinds. ...
IMO:
There's only so many ways to solve this problem. There are many ways, it's true, but the number is small when you have to consider how attractive the solution will be to the customers.
And it gets smaller when you start talking about what's required to change to actually fix it.
Just to give you some idea of what kinds of things would potentially need to change, to actually stop, partially or completely, inflation, in an artificial economy such as Pantheon....
Which is why.. a solution that requires exactly one "thing" (in-game mechanic) to solve the problem, namely, a single unavoidable resource/money/coin/currency sink, isn't really all that bad.
You can keep all of the loops you could ever want in the MMO, add one step, just one, and stop inflation entirely. Heck, you can even have every mob drop every single piece of equipment and/or body part they could possibly ever have, from clothing to hair, skin, bones, teeth, scales, organs, fluids, essences, fur, armor, weapons, jewelry, accessories, food, drink, books, journals, plants, herbs, flowers, reagents, consumables, potions, bags, packs, tools, you name it. All of it....and it has absolutely no effect on inflation whatsoever, provided you are willing to consider a single unavoidable resource/money/coin/currency sink.
Yes, that would work, but I feel with the same result as the laundry list of things you mentioned. If you're saying one sink to burn money from everyone, I'm guessing you mean on a percentage scale since you don't want to be "taxing" each character the same. This is now a wealth tax. Since the number one reason for inflation is twinking, debatable but you can see how to get there, you must hit the richest the hardest, even percentage-wise. Now you are talking making everyone as equal as you can. This is MMO bread lines to solve the problem. This is one year, ten years of play time, I can't leave my economic station in my MMO life. In order to do it like you say, it's almost a wealth cap. Nobody can have over this much money. Yes, that would solve all the problems with one easy fix. But, to your point, who would want to play a game that does that to you after years of playing, having nothing to show for it? Sounds like orc mischief to me...
1. Limited/Prevent player to player transactions of coin only, or large coin to item value disparages.
For example
Player A cant just hand over 2 million gold to player B who’s added nothing to the trade menu, likewise, player B cant put a smock of loathing worth 2 gold in the trade window and receive 2 million gold for it.
2. Merchants, Auction house, Vendors; again limit the large coin to item value disparages of any player listed items.
This would help prevent the inflation caused from certain farmers.
3. Along with your standard money sinks, Put a 10% tax on every transaction made, player to player, vendor bought, auction house sale ect.. Every transaction made, that will remove the taxed gold the money from the game.
For example;
A player selling something for 50 gold, would cost the player buying 55 gold. Player a receives their 50 gold, and 5 gold gets removed.
As players level up and prices increase, more gold is removed per transaction.
For example,
A player selling something for 5000 gold, would cost the player buying 5500 gold. Player a receives their 5000 gold, and 500 gold gets removed.
Ect..
Benonai said:... If you're saying one sink to burn money from everyone, I'm guessing you mean on a percentage scale since you don't want to be "taxing" each character the same. This is now a wealth tax. Since the number one reason for inflation is twinking, debatable but you can see how to get there, you must hit the richest the hardest, even percentage-wise. Now you are talking making everyone as equal as you can. This is MMO bread lines to solve the problem. This is one year, ten years of play time, I can't leave my economic station in my MMO life. In order to do it like you say, it's almost a wealth cap. Nobody can have over this much money. Yes, that would solve all the problems with one easy fix. But, to your point, who would want to play a game that does that to you after years of playing, having nothing to show for it? Sounds like orc mischief to me...
IMO:
No, not a wealth tax, and definitely not making everyone as equal. And after years, your character(s) should have extremely high inherent/personal/in-game value, especially to guilds, if it's done right.
There would also be no limit to personal wealth, as that would end up as you have extrapolated. People need the ability to feel economically powerful, or at least making progress, from the perspective of each character. And that all can be accomplished, with just a single unavoidable resource/money/coin/currency sink.
In the simplest implementation I have seen, NPCs provide one unavoidable service that everyone must utilize. That will get the mental model you might be imagining leaning in the right direction.