Should VR reduce the distance of tab target in the dark? So your not able to scope far ahead of you with the UI target box. Keeping the dark dangerous and full of tension.
Puts more emphasis on another sense like hearing rather than falling back on the UI, maybe even creates space for a buff that gives improved hearing (eg. pickup sounds over longer distance)
It certainly would make sense to not be able to 'game' the system by using tab targetting to effectively see in the dark...
If they can do it, it would make sense to not be able to tab target stuff that isn't visible in your display for *any* reason. Like if you're blinded or just looking the wrong way, even.
Tabbing should loop around all the creatures that you are 'looking at' (ie. that are in range and clearly visible in the view you have on your monitor).
Sounds good in theory. I don't see a way to make it work though. How is light measured? If it is tied to light sources then what if someone else in my group has a tourch or another group has a torch...Not to mention the latency issues. People get LOS messages all the time when a mob is right in front of them due to latency and I would guess this would be worse. If a race can see in the dark then it can't be tied to a light source or the mob itself....
I figured it would be hard to implement perfectly, I guess the simple way would be tab distance had a hard capped range at x to x time of night
Interesting thought. It is definitely "gamifying" to mash tab while running through dangerous places where visibility isn't great. I do that all the time in EQ, and sometimes have tabbed to an enemy I am after but can never actually find it. If the game allows me to mash tab, I'm going to do so, and a mechanic that prevents that would force me to appreciate the dangerous surroundings more. As MFR1 already brought up, the implementation of such a system might be challenging.
Yes, it should. I like this ides. Tabbed targeting is basically a proxy for seeing something well enough to distinguish it. This same limitation shouldn't be limited to darkness. Other ideas:
Size: A rat and a dragon shouldn't have the same tab target range. Mechanically, perhaps target range should be based on how big the hit box is relative to your character.
Stealth: hiding or having stealth should also reduce targeting range. This offers some fun extra risk for specific mobs and areas. Imagine some high risk areas with very limited range (go rewatch the first fight scene in the movie Aliens to get a feel of how intense this kind of effect could be).
Glad to see more people talking about this idea. I would hope to see it implemented in two ways.
First for darkness there needs to be a dim light or brighter check to see the NPC. This would apply to players as well trying to sneak around in the darkness. This would make lights matter more and would give a reason to travel blindly as well without lights. Not only would lights themselves be more important, but simple problems like an NPC running away would be a bigger issue to deal with if you were not already focused on them. The same check could apply to PCs for agro range and targeting. Bandits ambushes players by shooting arrows from max range in the darkness while the players are huddled together with their various lights. I clearly hope darkness is a potential danger.
Second I would add in an occlusion feature. Similar to how you cannot tab target through walls you shouldn't be able to tab target through certain partical effects or any form of passively invisible creatures outside of a very short range. Say melee range. This would mean no tab targeting through smoke bomb style manouvers to simply regain the target. The counter to this would be many. PCs can simply AOE the area. PCs could potentially blow the smoke away or dispel the magical darkness. PCs can run in and fight in the zone in close range. PCs could drag or push the enemies out of the effect. Perhaps allow PCs to assist allies to gain the target while remaining ranged, optionally sufferig some sort of penalty to attacks for attacking a rough area instead of a known target, this would further push for the party to counter the effect.
No matter how you design the rules and penalties players will find ways around them.
Hokanu said:Should VR reduce the distance of tab target in the dark? So your not able to scope far ahead of you with the UI target box. Keeping the dark dangerous and full of tension.
Puts more emphasis on another sense like hearing rather than falling back on the UI, maybe even creates space for a buff that gives improved hearing (eg. pickup sounds over longer distance)
By extension, if you're out in the dark and carrying a torch (or other light source), it is easier for others to see you from much greater distances than you can see them. The inverse square law can be thanked for that. So in a game, if you're looking for a more realistic approach to light, going out at night and carrying a torch should make you much more visible to hostile NPCs at much greater distances while making your ability to see them significantly reduced.
That said, I don't want VR to do this if it even means delaying any further PA sessions and/or getting Alpha going and/or delaying Release by even a single day. Add it after release, if at all.
Gintoki88 said:Guess we'll just skip tab targeting, back to mouse clicking like the old days.
If you want to click a thousand times to get lucky spam clicking in the darkness I wouldn't even feel bad if they allowed it to work. Trying to target a 1 cm square representing a mob 50 feet away where all you can see is a black screen would be entertaining.
I should probably say, if you want to click a dozens of times on a white gama corrected screen assisting you in seeing any slight discrepancies in the darkness :D
Gintoki88 said:Guess we'll just skip tab targeting, back to mouse clicking like the old days.
If you can't tab target something (due to range or any other reason), you shouldn't be able to mouse click target either. The idea behind limited range tab targeting is partly to prevent it from finding everything, partly to limit tabbing to targets close enough to interact with, and partly as a proxy for 'you're close enough to discern meaningful information so you can see its name, con, etc'.
Tab target linked to Player aggro and LOS? You spank it,you tank it. That way, a ranger send a flaming arrow and if it hits something, be subject to its aggro and anything it bothers while pursuing the source of the arrow, or a flare sent could illuminate without aggro unless dezinens were sensitive to light, like in deep waters or caves. (Deep waters worse/better than caves? as flaming/illuminated projectile is slower and goes less distance whereas in a cave it can go way farther. I can just see a galaxy of pin-point eyes appearing and turning your way as the source keeps going while hands make futile "stopping" motions).
The hit or startled target would be targetable and aggro not dropped until dead (you or it)
This topic has been promoted for my CM content, please continue the discussion and have fun! :)
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Pierce said:Yes, but also keep in mind the races that have darkvision, infravision or ultravision and spells that function likewise.
So far, we do not know of any such benefits inherent to any race.
EDIT: If any race(s) were to have a bonus to seeing in the dark, they should have an equal penalty during daytime hours. Fair is fair.
One wonders how well adapted the Dark Myr are to Air as opposed to Water. I know water refracts light strongly, and this could effect vision.
Also, vision could take a while to adapt to different lighting. Penalties might reduce over time as the eyes get acclimated, and this might even be a useful tactic in combat.
Imagine a Dungeon that flashes bright light at random intervals, then plunges back into total darkness.
And if course, whereever there's a penalty, there's an opportunity for horizontal advancement.
Pierce said:Yes, but also keep in mind the races that have darkvision, infravision or ultravision and spells that function likewise.
I really hope Pantheon skips this trope and instead makes players utilize light sources from items and magic. We have the technology to make light so good looking and important to game mechanics now. Unity's HDRP can allow ray tracing for proper light reflections off every surface to bounce around corners and complete a wonderful ambiance of movement some day. Seeing in the dark eliminates that aspect of the world.
We see Devs removing game play elements in so many games and it is a horrible design in my opinion. We see it with dark vision removing all the intricacies of light sources in games. We see it with stealth and invis games where you mechanically cannot fail at it even when you shoot people in the face you are still just a ghost. We see it with survival games where navigation or foraging is removed entirely from the game.
In my opinion adding dark vision to the game would be along the lines of adding an items, racials, and spells that made all climbing checks succeed. Who would still use normal climbing tools?
That said giving a few enemies dark vision would be great to give them an edge over players in various locations.
Vandraad said:Pierce said:Yes, but also keep in mind the races that have darkvision, infravision or ultravision and spells that function likewise.
So far, we do not know of any such benefits inherent to any race.
EDIT: If any race(s) were to have a bonus to seeing in the dark, they should have an equal penalty during daytime hours. Fair is fair.
I agree. They should all have to wear sunglasses or goggles to avoid penalties (I envision them looking like hung-over celebrities when out in full sun).
How will daylight be handled? Will overcast and cloudy days actually appear less bright, or will clouds only be a visual element and not really impact brightness?
And if darkness impacts targeting, will looking into the sun do the same?
As described by the OP (ablility to see what's ahead of you with the UI target box) - no. This makes no sense. I'll be turning up my gamma / constrast no matter what they do with the darkness.
If there should be a limited range to target something, that is a completely different discussion.
Reiver said:As described by the OP (ablility to see what's ahead of you with the UI target box) - no. This makes no sense. I'll be turning up my gamma / constrast no matter what they do with the darkness.
If there should be a limited range to target something, that is a completely different discussion.
If darkness is actually designed to limit your ability to see large distance and futzing with your gamma just eliminates that, then why bother making such a thing in the first place? VR would need to come up with some way to lock out gamma adjustments if they really want darkness to have an actual effect. I doubt it will happen though.
Vandraad said:If darkness is actually designed to limit your ability to see large distance and futzing with your gamma just eliminates that, then why bother making such a thing in the first place? VR would need to come up with some way to lock out gamma adjustments if they really want darkness to have an actual effect. I doubt it will happen though.
NPC carries a torch, gamma players are blinded outside of their UI.
Reiver said:As described by the OP (ablility to see what's ahead of you with the UI target box) - no. This makes no sense. I'll be turning up my gamma / constrast no matter what they do with the darkness.
If there should be a limited range to target something, that is a completely different discussion.
Yes they should limit range on tab targeting in darkness. Turning up your gamma is a hack.
Now magical darkness should have some volume to it, so even if someone turns up their gamma, then they see a volumetric cloud in the darkness.
But why turn your gamma to get around a darkness system that adds depth and immersion to the game? Why bother playing at all then? Seems like it would cheapen your experience.