Been watching videos like Baz's crafting video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LItVkK92PEA
Lots of little bags, moving things around from bag to bag. Picking up items in bags to drop them in crafting stations. Many different mats to make the same item, different mats make different stats on the same item. I love the core value of this type of crafting. What concerns me is item management. None of this has a modern UI. I dont know if this is coming but I personally have moved past spending hours every week to organize bags and banks. ESO goes to the extreme with their crafting bag endless. Other MMOs let you craft from your bank. GW2 does a good job of experimenting with mats then adding what you discovered as a recipe you can just click later to make the same thing.
In the end I have two concerns. UI, where is auto sort options, why is there still little bags over adding a new bag does not give you just more slots in your one place to look at all your inventory? Where is the UI for crafting? Why an I opening 2-4 bags and a crafting station to mess with? Why not just one UI window?
Also inventory management. Will there be things added to the game like a crafting bag, so I dont need to spend hours and hours to sort and chuck or keep items? Even if its not endless. Want more crafters, make it easyer to navigate pls =-)
What suggestions does the community have on how to make inventory management not a pain? Or do you like that pain? Why?
While I liked the convenience of crafting from a shared bank or an endless crafting bag - if Pantheon goes the other way and makes management of inventory and resources an essential part of the game this isn't necessarily a bad thing. And it is entirely consistent with the design philosophy that may give us a small taskbar for spells and combat abilities and force us to manage our abilities very carefully.
Back in the day - and Pantheon is likely to be very much a throwback nostalgia-driven game - we couldn't carry everything. Bags were small and we couldn't just go to a tailor (or become a tailor) to get massive increases to inventory space. Weight and encumbrance were factors and not trivial factors. You couldn't leave town carrying 15 suits of plate in your bags. Worse, you couldn't pick up all the "phat lewt" you got from a dungeon run unless it happened to be small and portable. You might not even roll on a possibly wonderful suit of plate if you were already loaded to the point where you could just carry 5 more pounds without moving at 1/4 speed or being unable to move at all. Worse yet - we might not know whether a drop was fabulously valuable or vendor trash until taking it back to town to be identified. At best someone might have a detect magic ability so we could ignore the totally mundane items - but a large, heavy and encimbering weapon or piece of armor that was magical might just be cursed. Or might have a totally useless enchantment placed on it by a sadistic developer. Plus one protection against mosquitos or plus one against one's hair becoming messy. Hmmmm that latter one could be priceless.
That cursed armor wouldn't just mean we had wasted a run because we chose to carry the armor in hope of wealth or power, and failed to luck out. What if we daringly dropped our current armor and put on the cursed set because that would let us also carry other loot. Maybe not a very fortunate decision if the curse was a bad one - and even if a high level party had a remove curse ability - not all curses were so easily dealt with. The armor might resist the spell. Or the curse could be a one-shot and if it killed you or imposed a debilitating condition or loss of an attribute - removing the armor afterwards would be a bit ...too late.
In other words - games back then were *really* different from games today and part of it was design philosophy not that the EQ and even earlier developers lacked the ability to provide more inventory space or to make items weightless and lacking in encumbrance.
Keep in mind the core tenets of Pantheon - which include slow progress and a large world. What is more consistent with such - a drop being mysterious, possibly harmful and definitely inconvenient to carry - or looking at it and knowing its precise nature. level and value? I ask that question not to argue for a "cumbersome and annoying" inventory system but to try and explain why some players and developers - perhaps many players and developers - might view it as a positive not a negative.
What suggestions does the community have on how to make inventory management not a pain? Or do you like that pain? Why?
I actually like the idea of paying attention to what items are where when it comes to crafting. It's part of the craft. You plan for what you're going to make, you make a "shopping list," you go get the materials you need whether that is from a shop, from the environment, from your own inventory, from another player, or from your bank. It all feels important to me and part of the overall process.
There have been games I've played that have annoyed me when it came to inventory management, but I think that's when we actually have endless space and hundreds of items. I hope Pantheon is a lot more restrictive so that we actually need to make choices on what to hold on to, what to give away, what to sell, what to destroy, etc. Our actual inventory shouldn't be overrun with hundreds of things and if that is the case it will not take hours and hours to organize it all. It should take a matter of miinutes.
I don't like it to be a 'pain', but I like it to have meaning. I like bags to have worth.
To just have a bag add slots to a combined inventory makes bags pointless, so I wouldn't want that. Also, if you want to be able to hand someone a bag of items, you have to be able to identify what items are in what bag.
To have different bags have different worth/meaning, via weight mitigation, object size capability or just number of slots or capacity, you have to be able to handle individual bags.
To take advantage of those characteristics, you have to be able to move items from bag to bag, etc.
I guess you could have some 'auto' options, like sorting, but, I think you have to have mostly 'manual' operation in order to get the worth and meaning from bags.
Like a lot of aspects in MMORPGs, not everything has to be a convenient joy to be worthwhile. Inventory management is one of those things, I think.
We've been told for years that nobody is doing any significant work on the UI at this time so to expect these UI elements you want to be there already doesn't mean it won't happen. Still a good idea to pester them constantly about it so they don't forget.
Also, we've seen in various streams that we'll have just 5 bag slots and 10 inventory (non-bag) slots. So unless bags grow to ridiculous sizes, say 20+ slots, being mindful of what you want to carry vs what you need to carry hopefully remains throughout the life of the game...though I doubt it will.
Vandraad said:We've been told for years that nobody is doing any significant work on the UI at this time so to expect these UI elements you want to be there already doesn't mean it won't happen. Still a good idea to pester them constantly about it so they don't forget.
Also, we've seen in various streams that we'll have just 5 bag slots and 10 inventory (non-bag) slots. So unless bags grow to ridiculous sizes, say 20+ slots, being mindful of what you want to carry vs what you need to carry hopefully remains throughout the life of the game...though I doubt it will.
Yes I get the game is in devopment but if we have 20 slots with 4, 5 slot bags. Flipping though 4 bags to find that crafting item you want over having the UI just show 20 slots because you have 4, 5 slot bags is so much easier on item managment. So what item managament do you want to see in the game? As for the mention above about noting having a bottemless bag for crafting supplies, sure but how would you like the juggling of crafting supplies to work? Would you like to see crafting pull items from your bank? Or would you rather walk really slow emcumbered because your a blacksmith carrying 3 tones of ore? What the point of this post is to look at what item management you would like to see? As the community. Because I dont like what I am seeing. With how crafting is planned, it is going to be very mat heavy. With special drops you will soon have allot of space taken up by these things as you try and collect them. On top of the normal mats you forage.
I think inventory management would be made even more challenging if every drop in the game could be used for at least one craft. Then you have to decide what is valuable enough to take a slot and what you will pass on. This would honestly drive me crazy, but I've never liked having junk drops that are only meant to be vendored. I can still vendor any drops if I feel like being lazy while checking market boards for the value of items when I have more time to spare.
I don't craft, but I do feel it's such a big QoL to not have to find items in your bag to craft. Opening the crafting UI should let you pick the items you carry from there.
Lastly, for sorting I like the ability to set filters for bags. You don't need a crafting bag, which was always silly to me. Why can't I put fur in this bag but a chunk of ore fits comfortably in there? You are ultimately the one picking up an item and inserting them into your bags, so a filtering option makes sense since you would want to separate items without being limited to crafting items.
Nanfoodle said:So what item managament do you want to see in the game?
Honestly I want to see Pantheon use the item inventory management from New World. It was easy and intuitive with all items/materials auto-sorting into one window. Adding bags just increased the storage capacity. 'Slots' weren't a thing. It is cleaner, more accessible, look into your inventory.
I hate that place, its slippery, I always fall and its miles away from anywhere and you have to fight to get there so its awkward to get help on a CR if you arent careful.
-Herbalist packs,(35% WR) and lots of high end ore.
*blink*...um, ok
- many moments later-
*wringing hands* hey um- there's only one way out, right? and, we're at the bottom, right? so...are we thinking of heading back up? what the- there's a fort!? and a BANK! who are these people how INteresting.
Slot limits are a horrible design for inventory, please don't use them. Volume and Weight should both matter. Inventory should make sense.
Why can't I have a backpack full of thousands of gems? Why should a single diamond take up the space of a breast plate? Volume and weight are both needed for inventory management.
The option to carry lighter bags can be thematic because you need to save the weight limit for your loot but know you may want to fill it full of expensive feathers which have a volume problem. One heavy backpack and a few pouches vs multiple heavy backpacks vs a sacks etc are all options to have people plan how they will carry loot and what loot they are after. Why should everyone aim for the same 8 one size fits all bags?
Crafting should have drop down menus for what the schematic requires and what to add on as an extra. I think they should be unique to the PC inventory unless you are crafting in a city. City stations could craft from that city bank. Crafting anywhere but a city should be limited to the PC. Such as going to special magic forge in the middle of dangerous area. You should have to plan properly for that.
Jobeson said:Slot limits are a horrible design for inventory, please don't use them. Volume and Weight should both matter. Inventory should make sense.
Why can't I have a backpack full of thousands of gems? Why should a single diamond take up the space of a breast plate? Volume and weight are both needed for inventory management.
The option to carry lighter bags can be thematic because you need to save the weight limit for your loot but know you may want to fill it full of expensive feathers which have a volume problem. One heavy backpack and a few pouches vs multiple heavy backpacks vs a sacks etc are all options to have people plan how they will carry loot and what loot they are after. Why should everyone aim for the same 8 one size fits all bags?
Crafting should have drop down menus for what the schematic requires and what to add on as an extra. I think they should be unique to the PC inventory unless you are crafting in a city. City stations could craft from that city bank. Crafting anywhere but a city should be limited to the PC. Such as going to special magic forge in the middle of dangerous area. You should have to plan properly for that.
I dont disagree things should make sense and ESO endless bag may not be the best idea. But this is a magic world and magic bag that could holld 10 x the crafting supplies over what a normal bag would not be a stretch and that bag could redure the weight of items by 50% EQ had bags that lowered weight. Or a portal bag that when you droped items in it. it went to your bank. To make that more useful, make the bank auto soft all crafting items on its own tab and armour and weapons on another, gens real items on its own tab.
I think I largely fall into the camp of some others here that actually like that inventory management appears to be a factor. I'm as guilty as anyone of having tons of disorganized crap in my bags/bank. I'm a bit of a hoarder, mostly in collecting things I intend to use for crafting in the future. But I like the fact that the occasional effort to consider and clean up helps with my overall game flow. Its another area where my knowledge, effort and forethought actually mean something, and exactly the kind of thing that the "streamlined" or "QOL" systems lack.
If the choice is between being required to consider the consequences of my actions (or lack of), or game systems that make those superfluous, I'll take the former.
I love this discussion. I am definitely in the camp of having a limited inventory but I agree that it would make tradeskilling particularly cumbersome having to go through each bag to see where all of your relevant materials are.
I would love to see VR implement a UI system to automatically show you any relevant materials you have for whatever tradeskill you are working on. For example, if you are stepping up to a forge, when you open up that forge, it would show you the forge as a container to put materials into (just like as in EQ), but it would also have a side window that shows you all of your relevant materials that you could potentially put into the forge. It would even ignore your irrelevant materials for other tradeskills. I don't think this would be immersion-breaking so much as it would be a huge quality-of-life feature that would save time and hassle.
Also, while I agree that we should have a limited ability to carry stuff while out adventuring, I would love to see the bank be the exact opposite. What better way to have the bank be a natural social spot in towns? Give us hoarders all the reason in the world to go out adventuring to then run to the bank to stuff it all away, and then rinse and repeat.
randomrob82 said:I love this discussion. I am definitely in the camp of having a limited inventory but I agree that it would make tradeskilling particularly cumbersome having to go through each bag to see where all of your relevant materials are.
I would love to see VR implement a UI system to automatically show you any relevant materials you have for whatever tradeskill you are working on. For example, if you are stepping up to a forge, when you open up that forge, it would show you the forge as a container to put materials into (just like as in EQ), but it would also have a side window that shows you all of your relevant materials that you could potentially put into the forge. It would even ignore your irrelevant materials for other tradeskills. I don't think this would be immersion-breaking so much as it would be a huge quality-of-life feature that would save time and hassle.
Great idea. This is just the kind of thing I would like to see.
A problem I immediately think of is this kinda removes the concept of discovery and experimenting with ingredients. If the game tells you everything that is relevant, then there is no mystery/discovery.
But that's a refinement issue - the idea is still a good one: Don't remove the bags/slots concept, just make it better. Enhance, don't remove/nerf/dumb down.
In the crafting example, it could just show you stuff you have known recipes for, but crafters will know other stuff might be useful, if unknown. Make it less painful to use, but don't dumb it down and damage the experience.
randomrob82 said:Also, while I agree that we should have a limited ability to carry stuff while out adventuring, I would love to see the bank be the exact opposite. What better way to have the bank be a natural social spot in towns? Give us hoarders all the reason in the world to go out adventuring to then run to the bank to stuff it all away, and then rinse and repeat.
I'm not sure about 'infinite' banking though. I think it will be an adventuring hub anyway. But sure, it should have a decent capacity, even if you have to pay for it (as would make sense).
Banking is an entirely separate issue from inventory - though how one is handled may affect the other.
Some that prefer the game to have a realistic feel and a "large world" feel have advocated for a regional banking system. Items put in a bank do not magically appear anywhere in the world or even anywhere in that banking system. You want an item you deposited in the Butt Creek branch to craft with you need to *go* to Butt Creek and withdraw it. Or perhaps pay for the bank to mail it to you, though mail would take time to be delivered and would only work within the mail system of that country/faction/alliance and any others that it has treaties with for unified mail delivery. Or give the bank a few days notice that you want the item moved to another branch of the same bank - and pay the bank for the effort.
Needless to say some take the opposite approach and opt for player convenience instead. Going so far as to prefer instant mail delivery even between continents and magical banks where an item is simultaneoulsy in existance at every bank in the world even the sworn enemies of the country where you deposited the item. For that matter even isolated islands or forests or deserts that never have even *heard* of the country where you deposited the item.
Similar differences of opinion apply to the broker/auction house if there even will be such a thing in Pantheon (last I heard was a while ago - they were leaning to a regional system).
One would hope - well I would hope - that the more realistic/large world (also meaning inconvenient and annoying) the banking, mail and broker systems are the more they will let us have a large enough inventory so that the inconvenience and annoyance are minimized.
Most inventory management systems seemed designed to be annoying enough that people will pay for solutions in a cash shop. I can't stand that and I hate how much time many MMOs require I spend managing inventory. Make it clean, simple, and intuitive. I want to spend my time playing the game, not doing MMO chores like organizing my inventory.
Counterfleche said:Most inventory management systems seemed designed to be annoying enough that people will pay for solutions in a cash shop. I can't stand that and I hate how much time many MMOs require I spend managing inventory. Make it clean, simple, and intuitive. I want to spend my time playing the game, not doing MMO chores like organizing my inventory.
I've only noticed this as 'an issue' when I've gotten onto the kind of MMORPGs that have multiple 'currency types' and are, basically, making inventory management painful in order to sell cash shop solutions.
There is simply no reason for this in a game that prioritises player enjoyment over monetisation. In a game that goes back to values where 'monetisation' meant simply 'selling the game because it's good' not 'getting idiots addicted'.
There is no reason to believe Pantheon will be anything like Diablio Immoral, infact there is every reason to believe the opposite.
To me, that is my starting position for any discussion, so, yeah, I hate how much time many MMOs require I [do most things], but for Pantheon, I'm not so worried.
disposalist said:Counterfleche said:Most inventory management systems seemed designed to be annoying enough that people will pay for solutions in a cash shop. I can't stand that and I hate how much time many MMOs require I spend managing inventory. Make it clean, simple, and intuitive. I want to spend my time playing the game, not doing MMO chores like organizing my inventory.
I've only noticed this as 'an issue' when I've gotten onto the kind of MMORPGs that have multiple 'currency types' and are, basically, making inventory management painful in order to sell cash shop solutions.
There is simply no reason for this in a game that prioritises player enjoyment over monetisation. In a game that goes back to values where 'monetisation' meant simply 'selling the game because it's good' not 'getting idiots addicted'.
There is no reason to believe Pantheon will be anything like Diablio Immoral, infact there is every reason to believe the opposite.
To me, that is my starting position for any discussion, so, yeah, I hate how much time many MMOs require I [do most things], but for Pantheon, I'm not so worried.
I'm far more sensitive to MMO chores due to my ADHD so some of my advocacy comes from that perspective. Modern MMOs deliberately use frequent rewards (loot drops, abundant harvest nodes) the same way casinos use lights and sounds. The frequent rewards are constantly feeding our brains dopamine and this makes the game more addictive. But this high rate of incoming items creates a need to spend more time managing it. With cash shop games, this is vastly exacerbated by the deliberately inadequate inventory space.
If my inventory fills up while adventuring, I need to spend more time evaluating each loot drop / harvest node to make sure I'm keeping the more valuable items. This takes mental energy away from adventuring and social interaction, especially if determining the relative value of items requires I have an encyclopedic knowledge of current market prices.
The constant loot drops and omnipresent harvestible resources also serves to vastly exacerbate MMO inflation, which harms the game economy.
For these reasons, I think the bast inventory management fix is a low drop and harvest rate. Make each item feel meaningful. Addict me to the game via challenging, dynamic combat, a fantastic world, and excellent social interaction. Using high loot drops is only needed in games that have to make up for bland combat, a bland world, and bland social interaction.
The only problem with the low drop/harvest rate is it can sometimes introduce an annoying grind, which I hate. I don't have time to waste my entire night trying to get one resource. The best system I've seen so far is the Elder Scrolls Online system, which has a special "craft bag inventory" separate from your normal inventory which is shared across all accounts. That way if I'm leveling in one zone with one character and grabbing stuff for my alt, I know it'll be there when my alt is ready to craft without me managing multiple inventories and mailing/banking everything and doing the log-in/log-off dance. Saves a lot of time and keeps the inventory clean and efficient.
MillerEP said:The only problem with the low drop/harvest rate is it can sometimes introduce an annoying grind, which I hate. I don't have time to waste my entire night trying to get one resource. The best system I've seen so far is the Elder Scrolls Online system, which has a special "craft bag inventory" separate from your normal inventory which is shared across all accounts. That way if I'm leveling in one zone with one character and grabbing stuff for my alt, I know it'll be there when my alt is ready to craft without me managing multiple inventories and mailing/banking everything and doing the log-in/log-off dance. Saves a lot of time and keeps the inventory clean and efficient.
This is the complete opposite of Pantheon's design where characters are not tied to each others and ressources management, carrying capacity, travelling and such are meant to be very important and crucial to the game.
I'm not saying it's not convenient, of course, but convenience breaks the aspect of scarcity, which in turn makes harvesting less impactfull. Crafting might, and should, not be for everyone like hard raiding isn't or roleplaying (if I may). But it needs to be both rewarding, exciting and not bland in a way you get things that are solely on your path with all characters and poof, you get an item ready for one of your toon out of nowhere and with very little impact on his journey.
I am very nervous about inventory size. Whether it is for collecting items with neat clicky abilities, holding on to strange items you find while exploring in case they are needed for a quest you later discover, or for holding on to items you will need for crafting, I am concerned that those of us who enjoy that side of gameplay will be forced to ignore much of it if bag space is too limited. You will see a lot less of people exploring and collecting, and a lot more of people rushing to max level, then coming back to specific locations for items pointed out in Wikis.