Jobeson said:Once you have outleveled anything in the game you can ignore it. That is why people complain about outleveling content. Your argument might as well say why have low level fights since high levels will just ignore it. If you spend 12 months at lvl 50 with interesting travel mechanics around your lvl 50 dungeons what do you care that 5 years from that time high levels who would never even enter that zone could run past it?
Doing ANYTHING in low level zones will be trivial, no one has disagreed on that point. If traveling through a zone your level is trivial as it is in most MMOs then VR has failed to make traveling interesting. If VR makes lvl 50 need to travel through lvl 10 zones every day it is poor design, but even if VR did that as you said, most high levels would ignore the problem as they afk auto run past the giants in that zone having absolutely no danger, how were they even impacted negatively?
The point is that the title of this thread is to have 'travel matter and be an engaging experience long term', and that is impossible. Travel cannot, always (or I'll even say mostly) engaging and by extension matter, because once you are familiar with the area the chances that you'll be suprised by anything drops dramatically and as you level up, the content becomes ever more trivial.
Meaningful travel is always something that diminishes over time. It only ever ends up being a time sink.
disposalist said:It's another one of those things that can't always be a thrill every second. A bit like death penalty corpse runs, they aren't always, in-and-of-themselves, 'fun' as such, but they give immense meaning and worth to all the activities and social aspects around them. Meaning and worth isn't always an immediate or direct payoff. In fact I would say more often than not, it is indirect and, unfortunately, it is the dumbing down or complete removal of these types of aspects of MMORPGs that has 'ruined' the genre, or at least changed it in ways that most players maybe don't realise is to its great detriment as a deep immersive experience, not just a game.
Sometimes, relatively 'boring' (I prefer to say 'peaceful' or 'relaxing') travel is a nice break, but the fact that it may be long and a 'time sync' means that you must make important (meaningful) decisions over whether or not you go at all, when you go, why you go, what preparations are needed, who you might coordinate with, what you will do when you get there, what you might do along the way, to make it all worthwhile.
There are going to be quite a few aspects of Pantheon like this.
This is the crux of it, if we want Pantheon to feel more like a world and less like a game, meaningful travel is one of those key components that adds to the experience in many indirect ways.
I am of the mindset that all of Terminus is a time sink, if you're going to look for that. I'm no programmer but couldn't VR put several "tripwires" in a road or other differing random spot, and if a L50 or group of L50s goes running through AVP a level 50 mob spawns up ahead? Or a group of L45 mobs spawn? I know roads won't change but VR has said mobs will have different dispositions and spawn points. Also npcs will move about. That would help make travel interesting. I think VR has committed to having multiple levels in any zone. I would think that might help keep travel interesting.
i would rather have a mage that could teleport us to a portal in said region than traveling on foot for 30+ minutes. It was fine when I was younger but I've been spoiled by instance gratification that I don't think I can tolerate without it.
This will force me to dual box just for teleport :)
Totally agree with the general sentiment of the OP. Travel needs to matter in this game! It is absolutely essential for the long-term viability of a believable and immersive game-world!
There are somethings that VR wants to implement and that I think already contribute to this:
> day/night cycle affects which type of mobs might appear in a given zone
> traits and dispositions affect mob behavior which makes traveling a bit more interesting
> seasons, climates and acclimation affect your character in various ways while you travel
All this is nice, but what I think would truly be the best solution to this issue is what SOE was doing with EQNext: Emergent AI
This video captured at PAX13 sums it up nicely:
https://youtu.be/4Tky9iQjUAY?t=173
To my recollection VR isn't doing anything like this, and I imagine if they decided to implement it, it would be a major ordeal.
But a guy can dream...
Call me old fashioned, but one of the main things I got out of EverQuest was the sense of being some place else. I really don't want to give that up.
While I don't have specifics, it seems to me that some kind of dynamic space could make travel less monotonous. Flowers, mobs, trees, shadows? Trees actually growing over time? Camps that move? Traveling Gypsies? Encampments that come and go. Tied to seasons?
I don't know. Planes of Power didn't kill EQ for me, the dishonesty of the developers did. So there was something there that allowed rapid travel but did not destroy space.
Optical illusions, clues that are only seen from a specific direction? Caves that come and go?
I try to keep an open mind when it comes to travel experience, in the sense that evolution of travel does not have to be one direction only.
Road from X to Y experience:
1) at level 1 it's more dangerous but as you level up the danger decreases (when we talk about mob encounters on the road)
2) I walk on foot, but as I level I'm able to increase my runspeed
3) The effect of being on that road does X impact on my runspeed
4) The means of travel is on foot at first, but later on I'm able to use a mount
5) A portal is possible and the conditions of accessing that portal remain the same or become even easier.
6) Over time I've familiarized with the road so much that I can predict what object will appear each second of the ride.
To me all these are experiences that have one way only. Many games have designed it as such. But you don't have to. You can alternate, mix and match different situations, conditions.
1.1) The variety of mobs might differ so that you if you might get killed by a same level encounter, a high level encounter would have the same result. But it does provide variety. same works the other way with switching weaker mobs. (hurt mobs, desoriented mobs, lower level, 'younger' versions)
1.2) What might be dangerous on that road, might not be linked to a level but rather to a skill (crossing a narrow ledge, dodging spiky rocks above you) or weather conditions.
2) Runspeed on the road is not influenced by the level of the player, but rather by the conditions of the road itself. wet, rain, snow, ice, blistering hot, nice weather etc.
3) While some games offer a standard runspeed boost while on a road, there is no rule that says that you have to implement that. That aspect can differ by the players stamina and ability to sustain a sprinting pace when on foot.
4.1) Conditions of obtaining a mount can differ depending on X. Mounts could be more expensive, become rare or temporarily not available at all due to Y. No situation is permanent and neither is the player who has a mount. Mounts themselves could remain temporary. (I've talked about this in other threads but I'll keep it short.) You can rent mounts for X time and afterwards that mount will return to nearest stable and be relocated to it's initial stable.
4.2) Stables could have restricted number of mounts available in their rotation. So when all available mounts have departed, you can go on foot. Or possibly check how long it will be for the first mount will be returned to this stable.
5) A magic portal has become so commonplace people view it as a stoplight. But it doesn't have to be. The magic required can attract opposing interests, the more a portal is used at a location the more/higher mobs will be drawn to this location. Impacting the surrounding areas.
5.2) The time it takes to open a portal doesn't have to be the same. The more a portal is used, the more time it needs to "gather its magic" and open the portal. Obviously not to ridiculous timeframes but tangible.
5.3) Those responsible for keeping the portal open or opening the portal might have their conditions changed. Time of day or even better stance of the sun/star/moon will determine if a portal can be opened. It will impact how players think about portal use and their time of travel, and also how they'll experience the world at that time they want to travel.
6) In our daily lives we encounter detours or change of roadconditions all the time; X lost their cargo blocking the road, ice patch, mudpool, tree fell on the road, roadkill (or general obstacles), avalanche, snowbanks, herdcrossings. This could already be farfetched, but similar to how nodes work you might have occurences on roads, pathways etc. They'll alternate/vanish/reappear in a senseable location. You can say, well it doesn't provide anything to the player other than annoyance, but it will impact the travel experience going from X to Y. A lot of things can happen when the player needs to abort the path for a while before getting back on that road. So, according to me, this has a lot of value. Not only for the first time you travel the road but the game experience over the years! And that is what makes this a world and not a game.
Kaynrath said:Totally agree with the general sentiment of the OP. Travel needs to matter in this game! It is absolutely essential for the long-term viability of a believable and immersive game-world!
There are somethings that VR wants to implement and that I think already contribute to this:> day/night cycle affects which type of mobs might appear in a given zone
> traits and dispositions affect mob behavior which makes traveling a bit more interesting
> seasons, climates and acclimation affect your character in various ways while you travel
All this is nice, but what I think would truly be the best solution to this issue is what SOE was doing with EQNext: Emergent AI
This video captured at PAX13 sums it up nicely:
https://youtu.be/4Tky9iQjUAY?t=173
To my recollection VR isn't doing anything like this, and I imagine if they decided to implement it, it would be a major ordeal.
But a guy can dream...
I maybe wrong, but I don't think building an entire world like that is possible with such a small team, especially with that idea evolving and expanding from 2013. The goals VR set for themselves seem daunting enough and I hope they can achieve them all in the time they want, but what you're talking about looks ever more daunting.
We don't know the reasons for EQNext not being developed, but that scope may have played a role or maybe I'm overthinking it all.
Things aren't always 'boring' just because you do them twice.
Things that are meaningful and satisfying can be repeated many many times without being 'boring'.
There's a country dog walk I take that is essentially 'the same' every time and it is, every time, pleasurable, relaxing and satisfying.
Not every experience has to be brand new and unique to be enjoyable.
If VR can make the world good-looking, dangerous, rewarding (collectables and resources, loot from wandering monsters), etc, then every trip will continue to have some meaning and enjoyment.
I get that some people just want to fight fight fight and loot loot loot, but *shrug* are they going to only ever fight in one area once and then move on? If the fighting 'game' is enjoyable, then it should be repeatably enjoyable for quite some time. The same goes for travel.
And even if travel really is boring to you, it still has some meaning. The multi-hour ordeal that is air-travel is not really 'fun', but it sure does make travelling to Rome a much more special thing because I can't just do it instantly at a whim.
Reading all these posts is cementing an idea in my head that the travel its self is less important as to why you are traveling and what the destination is. There is nothing wrong with making travel also interesting to a point. But not all fixes sound appealing too me. For example, spawning high level encounters as you run though a low-level zone just because you are high level is not appealing to me at all.
I would focus in on making the reason for traveling to another location rewarding and the intervals that you are encouraged to make those travels spread out. Not a complete solution but it is a good start.