It's funny that the latest dark legocy webcomic kinda deals witht his subject:
https://www.darklegacycomics.com/821
Unless it's obvious to everyone I wouldn't even notice. If I notice a player underperforming, then they are either trolling or new to MMOS. Why do I say that? I'm playing Pantheon to explore, adventure and get immersed in the world. I'm not here to 'be the best' or 'conquer the hardest content.' Also, if I notice it then I'm pretty sure others will have noticed way before me and would say something. If the person's response is that they are still learning and want to get better or something along those lines, then I'm fine with them. If they respond with an attitude or some sarcastic trolling comment, then I know it's intentional and I'll go along with everyone to kick them. But, I'm not looking for any of that and won't be using any tools to determine that.
I firmly believe that Pantheon will be a game where we can have a balance between those wanting to push content to it's extreme and those just here for the journey. We can all find our tribe and have a good time. The only thing I will be working hard at is to establish my 'Exploration Group' idea so those who appreciate that playstyle can find groups when they want to. And, working to foster a community that is helpful and supportive of positive experiences. This has been missing for far too long in the many games I've played, and I hope to bring back some of the magic from when I started MMOS.
Ranarius: Scenario: All week I've been researching, studying, practicing to take on a certain boss for a shot at an item I know he drops. A group of 5 friends and I have spent 4 hours every night just practicing that fight and losing, but now we've got it all figured out. Tonight is Friday night and I'm planning to finally execute my plan. One of my friends is unable to log in tonight, so we decide to look for a 6th person to replace him. We're specifically looking for someone who knows the fight as well as we do....because this is when we finally execute the plan. Someone joins the group claiming that they know this fight. We show up to the fight and the first thing they do is completely wrong.
Since you asked me directly: if it was that important to practice and plan, then I would make sure that the people in my group had done the same and I would not expect a pickup to be at the same standard as the player(s) who had practiced all week at this task. Even if they said they know the fight, they might be expecting different tactics or expect a role to work in a different way than you are used to. It does not mean they are less skilful, just their experience is somewhat different. I think it is a bit unrealistic to expect someone to just drop into your group seemlessly if everyone else has practised a lot for this one fight. If they keep screwing up, then I would just try something else.
Personally, I would either postpone until my "A-Team" are available or I just try with the pickup but not expect too much. I would prefer to wait for my friends if this was that big of a deal.
Ranarius: ...communication is key. Being clear with expectations, being kind, being respectful, making it clear that there will be times for both groups of people to shine, all of that goes a long way.
I totally agree. That does not preclude grouping with people less skilful and having fun with it too. If you need to do something important, make sure you are with people of a similar skill before you set out to do that task, otherwise, chill and have fun. Pantheon looks to have a ton of things to do, so find something that works. I would never expect the same degree of skill from a pickup over guild players that I know and have played with for months. If the pickup proves to be good, then that is a bonus. If it is clear they are still learning the ropes, then act accordingly and be accommodating and set realistic targets. I would never run something important with pickups anyway (excepting a raid that is).
Those competative enough will have the pressence of mind to take themselves out if they are not making the cut.
The awkward part is telling the person who is trying / has a heart to excel but cannot through no fault of their own.
Likewise, hoping the above person does not hear of the other who is doing just as poorly on a comprable level but is tolerated because they show they are trying/ have a heart to excel but are not for some reason.
Bearing in mind the powerful psychological impact that most games are intended to be a great equalizer in that everyone starts at the same vantage point and is equally equiped to gain potential and guaranteed a measure of success (levels) based on playing by the rules. Most people find greater satisfaction in games than in RL because such success is promised and achieved this is powerful positive reinforcement, unlike in RL where such promises of success are made and rarely achieved yet there is always the encouragement to perservere and the setbacks are not as devastating or as time consuming, like losing a job, major medical expense, replacing a car regardless of time-sinks. In fact this may be why time-sinks are so abhorred once identified as such, although much shorter than a comprable RL time-sink, the fact that one exists causes a deep averse reaction based on the memory of the last RL time-sink: doing the temp job for 2-3years because you could not get something in your chosen field or that pays better, getting your own place, affording a mortgage, lock-down. Whereas in Game such obstacles are readily overcome.
through no fault of their own: Stroke, heart attack recovery, Bed-ridden from accident, Mental health recovery/controled socialization with help/protection of "fourth wall" as screen, if it gets too intense, log off. None of the players in game may know this is the case and the player may depend on the confidence that comes with knowing all start at the same point and all can suceed in game regardless of Real life hinderances. So I tell the player, I said that already, or Scroll up, or, we spoke about this, or, I cant keep re-explaining privately because its messing me up and interrupting the raid/group then admiting: its getting exasperating. Causing them to lay their trump: I had a stroke 4 months ago. I'm trying to improve my coordination. To which I reply: well you're doing really well! (whoops-) I mean like solo or group yeah, its complex but this event is more complicated. Not that you can't do it just that..I don't know (heart-breaks) you're not reacting, sometimes I see you just standing still.
are not for some reason: could be technical, Lag-fest, bad service provider, located in rural area, always going LD, but every time they are on they are working on some kind of progression for themselves. they have the latests strats and class cheats and are doing the same thing but are not parsing like others in their class. Dropped a drink on their keyboard causing them to engage the boss before everyone was ready causing a wipe. Missed every emote on the same event 6 attempts in a row to the point where if no one got the emote, everyone just moved away from him to be sure. Main care provider, babies, SO's (hey man where'd you go? sry guys I had to chat with my wife for a bit. oh... She dropped off a coke when she passed by. aw! how nice! yeah, her rare drop is a beer. haha! ready for pulls? rdy, rdy,rdy,rdy,rdy <- real convo)
*Edit* what if YOU are the group member? I apped an Uber Guild many years ago. I thought I did well, I listened up and responded to tells. When I had a question, I took initiative when I didn't get a response over repeated inquiries and acted that was germaine to the event to save an obvously AFK group member. Also, I did not call out a Uber guild member for chastising me in public on something that I knew was a pathing quirk and that said Uber guild member was also guilty of exhibiting just moments later. It wasn't my place, I was an app and they were uber. I understood there were nuances and attitudes I needed to learn and appreciate. I imagined it was soley based on criteria I assumed I met, but apparently there was other criteria I wasn't aware of and was never made known of. So they told me, no. At least I had the pressence of mind not to ask why or press regardless of my wanting to. They were Uber. Instead I thanked them for the raids they let me attend during the app process and to please keep me in mind if they find themselves short on an odd date and need another player of my caliber on a temporary basis with the understanding that I am not expecting any loot. Also I asked when I could app again. Nice thing was I did get flagged for those areas and they were high end so I was able to speak to other guilds and guest with them and because Iw as already flagged it helped them a bit. I ended up going somewhere else thatw as a better fit. I still winced at the memory but, not everyone can play for the Yankees, or Spurs, or Rabbitohs right?
I tend to stick with a group once it starts even if things aren't going our way. One person that's not performing well usually won't make me leave a group or kick a person.
If it's something that's totally obvious then I usually send a tell and make a suggestion to correct what ever is clearly wrong. If there isn't something just glaringly bad then I may or may not send a tell.
Talking to someone privatley is often way better than starting out in group chat and it usually gets better results. If they come back with a pissy comment or just ignore me then I may move on but I'll usually just stay with the group unless we can't get anything at all done.
It depends. There are many ways to under-perform. If it is a gameplay issue I would always start by trying to help them improve, and only consider kicking them if they ungratefully refuse to fix whatever they are doing wrong. If it is a situation where they can't fix the issue by making different choices, such as being under-geared, or under-leveled then again it depends. If they can't perform a vital role like a tank that dies instantly from hits, or a healer that can't keep anyone alive then they have to be replaced. If they are a DPS then most of the time they can be carried by the rest of the group. A lot of times a group will even be set up like that on purpose to help under geared/leveled friends get caught up. As for dps meters, I am 100% for them. If a group wants to carry someone that should be their choice, and if they don't know it is happening the ability to choose is being taken away from them. If a player is sitting in a group secretly doing <1% of the total damage; at best they are being robbed of the ability to receive feedback or ever get better, and at worst they are deliberately leeching off a group of unknowingly conscripted patrons.
Telepath said:...As for dps meters, I am 100% for them. If a group wants to carry someone that should be their choice, and if they don't know it is happening the ability to choose is being taken away from them. If a player is sitting in a group secretly doing <1% of the total damage; at best they are being robbed of the ability to receive feedback or ever get better, and at worst they are deliberately leeching off a group of unknowingly conscripted patrons.
Surely, no one could secretly only do 1% of the damage in a group? You don't need meters to notice that after a couple of fights. In a raid *maybe* but even then probably not. In a group, after a few fights you can tell if someone is underperfming to any serious degree, nevermind 1%.
And otherwise, if their damage is so close to normal performance that you need a meter in order to notice, then they are doing a good enough job anyway.
So, do we need meters?
disposalist said:Surely, no one could secretly only do 1% of the damage in a group? You don't need meters to notice that after a couple of fights. In a raid *maybe* but even then probably not. In a group, after a few fights you can tell if someone is underperfming to any serious degree, nevermind 1%.
No, you amost certainly would not know. In a group with 4-5 people doing damage, at best you would notice that the overall time it takes to kill mobs is a little slow. As long as everybody is performing combat animations how would you possibly know whether it is one person doing effectively zero damage, or a group full of under-average dps? If you figured out it was one person how would you possibly know which one it is? In raids it is even less transparent. Why add so many unnecessary steps to find and correct problems?
Even If I can't see other peoples dps and I can only see my own I would still want it because as a DPS class it is the only tool to track the effectiveness of your skill choices, gear changes, and general upward growth as a player.
Do you want everyone just standing around noobie zones with a pocket watch timing how long it takes to solo trivial mobs to gauge their progress? Come on.
There is one advantage to not having DPS meters. It allows people who find exploits to do massive damage to stay easily hidden from the rest of the player base.