I have been recently pondering how to manage a team member who reports to me, who, sadly, is not meeting performance expectations. Meetings have been had, performance plans implemented, and they are trying their best, but after almost a year, there has been no improvement.
My thoughts then went to how I would handle this in a MMO, being, if a group member performance was not up-to-scratch. I tend to be patient and provide time and opportunity for growth and improvement, but I realize that some may approach such a situation differently.
So, how would we all handle such a situation in Terminus? Would you kick the person out, perhaps replacing them with a known player of greater renown, or help them? Would it be a group vote or driven by the group leader? Or would you keep your mouth shut and perhaps note whether to invite the same person in a group next time the situation arises?
If skills are to matter at all in the game we have to have people who are simply bad at the game. In the end though there are tiers of skill requirement. I wouldn't invite the poor performer to a high skill check area, but I would gladly farm with them in a low if not moderate skill check place as long as the group can handle it. That said if the poor performer is already in the group I wouldn't try to kick them I would probably just leave the group if the group overall couldn't perform.
Lafael said:I have been recently pondering how to manage a team member who reports to me, who, sadly, is not meeting performance expectations. Meetings have been had, performance plans implemented, and they are trying their best, but after almost a year, there has been no improvement.
My thoughts then went to how I would handle this in a MMO, being, if a group member performance was not up-to-scratch. I tend to be patient and provide time and opportunity for growth and improvement, but I realize that some may approach such a situation differently.
So, how would we all handle such a situation in Terminus? Would you kick the person out, perhaps replacing them with a known player of greater renown, or help them? Would it be a group vote or driven by the group leader? Or would you keep your mouth shut and perhaps note whether to invite the same person in a group next time the situation arises?
Aaaaaand this is a textboox example of why I am against damage meters, log parsers, et al.
This is a game, not a job. Some people are better than others. That's just the nature of things. It's supposed to be FUN, not work.
I'm also against third-party meters for the judemental (and often inaccurate) conclusions they lead players to, but it has to be said, there are often players bad enough for it to be obvious without any statistical backup.
When you come across that, you deal with it like any normal human being playing a game: You tactfully try to help. If you know them well, you joke about it! And then you try to help. You slow things down a bit. You compensate.
I know there are some players that seem to find it unbearable to not be 'performing' at peak efficiency, like it's a competition or a job they are getting paid for, but I find that more annoying than having to help 'bad' players, personally.
If it really is ruining a whole group's progress, then, of course, after slowing down and trying to help, you might suggest they get more experience and come back another time, but that's got to be a very rare occurence, to get to that point.
If you were taking on a particularly - and notoriously - difficult group encounter, then yeah, you might have to tell them they appear unprepared and, apologetically, explain you feel they need more experience or better gear before coming back (and, yes, ask them to leave - effectively kick them out of the group). An even more rare occurence, surely.
It's a game. We are humans. There are, of course, ways to handle this kindly *if* it really needs to be 'handled' at all.
I would tailor the experience of gaming to suit the players in my group. It's my responsibility to be clear at the beginning what we are going to attempt and it it doesn't work then the error is on the leader . If we don't have the skill for X then change the objective to Y.
This game, for me, is a temporary escape from the rock we all inhabit that is screaming through the void following around a big ball of fire at 70,000+ MPH with no one around to help guide us safely. Accompanied by superstitious apes with bombs and unstable emotional issues trying to collect as many shiney objects as possible in a few short decades before becoming worm food. But there is banana nut bread.
So I'll game with anyone until they act a jerk or try and turn my escape into a job. Have fun out there, you're gonna feed the worms soon enough.
Lafael said:My thoughts then went to how I would handle this in a MMO, being, if a group member performance was not up-to-scratch. I tend to be patient and provide time and opportunity for growth and improvement, but I realize that some may approach such a situation differently.
So, how would we all handle such a situation in Terminus? Would you kick the person out, perhaps replacing them with a known player of greater renown, or help them? Would it be a group vote or driven by the group leader? Or would you keep your mouth shut and perhaps note whether to invite the same person in a group next time the situation arises?
I like to push the edge of what is possible so you must have both a solid understanding of the strengths/weaknesses of your class, but those of the other classes in the group as well as all the fundamental mechanics in the game. If you don't, or can't, you'll be looking for another group. I'd say by level 20, at the latest, is when my expectations of groupmembers gets to this point. By then, one would hope, every class has all the basic spells, abilities and whatnot that makes its class what it is.
If someone simply will not act like a team player they should get a warning and then get booted if necessary. I have little patience for a bad attitude. By this I mean pulling when they are not the puller, running around and getting enemies we don't want when they are not the one leading the group through the dungeon, looting when they should still be fighting, being offensive in chat, or one of the other myriad of things that makes someone a poor team member even if they are a good player.
If someone is cooperating but simply is not very *good* at it I have a great deal more patience. If a run takes an hour when it should have taken 45 minutes I can live with that. If it is too annoying I will just not stay with the group after the first logical break point.
On the other hand, if it means that the group cannot succeed they have to go. Wiping benefits them no more than it benefits the rest of us. I say "they" but maybe I am the one holding the group back. It can happen. Especially if a run requires jumping or quick reflexes or good vision to spot tiny hints of what is about to happen. None of which is my strength. In which case I will suggest that the group get someone more useful.
Are we talking rando group members or guildies in a pre-made party?
In an MMO I play all classes and roles. As such, I have a solid idea of what other group members should be capable of without a DPS/HPS meter. In a random group, I will help where I can, but if a party member is simply not up to the task I will leave when an acceptable point to do so arises.
Now, if the group member is a guildie I will play with them in low-skill situations but not when a group needs to be firing on all cylinders. A guildie should be given a synopsis as to what is required to get into high-skill groups.
Differentiators can be gear, familiarity with the specific content, and time in the saddle. Some people will just not be able to perform under pressure and with heightened situational awareness. Not a knock on them, but some people do not belong on the front lines.
An interesting aside here is that, if someone did not know what was possible, and you or another player display advanced tactics with a particular class/role, seeing this in action can inspire that low-skill player to elevate their gameplay by working to implement what they saw.
I try to play at a high skill level personally, but I am very chill and patient so I am not really bothered when some people underperform. I really don't like interpersonal conflict and prefer fun / friendly person to a highly skilled person who isn't participating socially. About the only thing which really gets me to kick someone out is if they're toxic or trolling. Like Luke Skywalker, I prefer my dungeon crawls rancor-free.
This happens *all the time* at big family events or parties. When the higher skilled people want to play a game that the less skilled people just aren't as competetive in I just make two games. A competetive game and a for fun game.
I'd use the same strategy in an MMO, but I would might use different words for it. Everyone (especially mature people) understands the difference between competetive/advanced and for fun.
If you sign up for a "competetive" volleyball course at the local community center but you don't know how to pass or set, they're going to tell you to sign up for the beginner level class. It's pretty common and doesn't have to be any different in an MMO.
Kalok said:Aaaaaand this is a textboox example of why I am against damage meters, log parsers, et al.
This is a game, not a job. Some people are better than others. That's just the nature of things. It's supposed to be FUN, not work.
Just to clear any possible misunderstanding, I'm not insinuating that work expectations should be applied to gaming. It was a case of applying my thought processes to a different context.
Games are meant to be fun (even for those who make them:)).
This topic has been promoted for my CM content, please continue the discussion and have fun! :)
"Community Debate - Underperforming Group Members - How would you handle an underperforming person in your group? Would you take the time to help them or just kick them without saying anything? Please explain your answer https://bit.ly/3t5kBqW #MMORPG #CommunityMatters #games"
Kilsin said:This topic has been promoted for my CM content, please continue the discussion and have fun! :)
"Community Debate - Underperforming Group Members - How would you handle an underperforming person in your group? Would you take the time to help them or just kick them without saying anything? Please explain your answer https://bit.ly/3t5kBqW #MMORPG #CommunityMatters #games"
It really depends on the situation.
If someone is underperforming but isn't holding the group back and everyone is having fun, then does anything really need to be said to that person?
Now if someone's underperformance is holding the group back that needs to be addressed. The situation needs to be evaluated, the why needs to be identified, and then the issue needs to be addressed directly with the person or persons. I don't really believe in just kicking someone for performance-based issues without saying anything to them. This avoids the issues and doesn't help the person understand what is going on.
I am also willing to help people where I can with performance-based issues. This may include discussing itemization with them, discussing their role and basic rotations, covering talent builds or referring them to online references. In my 23 years of gaming, I have only found one person that was unhelpable and that was after spending 3 months working with them and involving their significant other in the process.
FatedEmperor said:It really depends on the situation.
If someone is underperforming but isn't holding the group back and everyone is having fun, then does anything really need to be said to that person?
Now if someone's underperformance is holding the group back that needs to be addressed. The situation needs to be evaluated, the why needs to be identified, and then the issue needs to be addressed directly with the person or persons. I don't really believe in just kicking someone for performance-based issues without saying anything to them. This avoids the issues and doesn't help the person understand what is going on.
I came to give my two cents, but this is basically it ^
Lafael said: ... So, how would we all handle such a situation in Terminus? Would you kick the person out, perhaps replacing them with a known player of greater renown, or help them? Would it be a group vote or driven by the group leader? Or would you keep your mouth shut and perhaps note whether to invite the same person in a group next time the situation arises?
IMO:
It would depend on the context. In the first 10-15 levels? Help them out, explain whatever you can, educate them about whatever game loop the group is participating in.
If it's a thousand hours in, and they should know better, it seems unlikely we would be PUG'ing. If it's an all guild group + 1, and the +1 is just DPS, doesn't really matter to us, generally.
I wouldn't personally kick someone without asking them what's going on, first. But I have seen many groups in many games where people are kicked for going AFK without notification.
It's not that hard to play your role in these games, these days.
Personally, I have seen players join groups in PoP zones, arrive, sit down, and stay sitting until the group leaves, evacs, or they get booted and die alone to adds. More AFK w/o notification, but with the expectation of just leeching XP for hours? Not cool.
I've seen bad tanks and bad healers, and those generally don't find guilds because they're not invited, mostly because they're bad at their role. So, as the average level on a server rises, and those people aren't invited to guilds, there's generally a red-flag reason. It's often, but not always, coupled with a 'prickly demeanor' or an inability to accept suggestions, so.. the problem solves itself. :)
What I mean by that is, an unguilded level 30+ tank or healer several months after launch, always LFG but no-one picking them up? Something is going on there. Caution is advised.
When I played on EQ1 TLP, there were many under-geared players doing their best. They communicated well, and explained they would have a hard time holding aggro, so DPS shouldn't unload in the first 5, 10, or 15%. They knew what they were doing, but just didn't have the gear yet. Nothing wrong with that.
In our guild groups, we share parses in Discord because we want to see how we can improve. Can't improve without data, feedback, and iterating. In games built entirely on numbers, evaluating the numbers seems like a good first step.
It's something I have met and will probably meet again, but to experience that's really a hard topic to meet :
I've tried helping people, but some of them just cannot reach the bare minimal gameplay. It's not that they aren't in bleeding top of their player class, they just stop acting when there anything happening and they end up having really poor performances. In this specific case you're stuck between the hammer and the anvil, either to put performances ahead and you get rid of the human factor. Or you keep considering the human factor and you know you won't be able to meet performances.
This went more prevalent since game became more about gameplay, reactivity, procs and fast skill, as it left players unable to learn to react by instinct far behind others.
It all comes down to your own expectations of the game but also around what the game is centered.
-If the game is about having the best skilled players with the more synergetic classes to reach content, then slow learning or slow reacting players will be seen as a weight and keeping them will cut you out of some if not most content.
-If the game is about the trip and all the content is neither that hard, or more based on the right timing instead of pressing buttons everytime they pop ups while moving, watching boss animation, telegraphs, the moon size, etc..., then you can just tell yourself these players will make things a bit slower but not block you off content, which is fine.
If the game is working as EQ did in it's prime years, then beeing inable to kill some bosses in time doesn't mean you can't come back an expansion later and still have a good challenge and good rewards, as long as levels caps and new gear doesn't make the previous era irrelevant.
How do you even know that party member i underperforming?
Whenever things go bad in group-based games I think people most of the time blame their team mates. Sometimes some people are bad, sometimes teams don't manage to play according to eachothers styles but very rarely will there be a consensus on whos fault it is that wipes etc. are happening.
I think that when we decide that someone else is underperforming we do it with a massive bias. Compare how often you decide others are bad to how often you decide you're the problem yourself.
Lafael said:Kalok said:Aaaaaand this is a textboox example of why I am against damage meters, log parsers, et al.
This is a game, not a job. Some people are better than others. That's just the nature of things. It's supposed to be FUN, not work.Just to clear any possible misunderstanding, I'm not insinuating that work expectations should be applied to gaming. It was a case of applying my thought processes to a different context.
Games are meant to be fun (even for those who make them:)).
If you are applying the same thought process, you're trying to make it like work. You're thinking like one of those so-called "efficiency experts" from the early 2000s wheo companies hired to get rid of people they believed to be "under-performers" to a video game.
"You must meet these requirements in player effiiciency or you are being terminated from my group."
"This went more prevalent since game became more about gameplay, reactivity, procs and fast skill, as it left players unable to learn to react by instinct far behind others."
Very true. And this is a definite consideration for how the developers design the encounters and the combat system itself.
The closer it comes to "action combat" where player reflexes and vision and internet connection are king (or queen) the more we exclude people that simply lack these attributes and cannot be excellent or even "good enough" no matter how smart they are and no matter how hard they try.
The closer it comes to combat where character development and gearing and player knowledge (but not ability to respond to stimuli within half a second) is king (or queen) the more we include such people. But life being a zero sum game in many respects - this is less attractive to people that enjoy single-person shooters or otherwise want challenges based on how good the *player* is not challenges based on how well the *character* is developed, geared and played.
Spluffen said:How do you even know that party member i underperforming?
When the tank is unable to hold aggro, and the healer is immediately dying, then the problem is probably between the two, but most likely due to poor healing-aggro management. If the tank is unable to hold aggro, and the DPS are immediately dying, the problem is probably because the DPS are going too hard. If the tank is unable to hold aggro, but the mob's HP isn't chunking in a spastic manner, and the healer doesn't seem to be low on mana, then the problem is almost certainly the tank. If the support isn't stunning/mezzing/trapping adds, that's a them problem. If the healer is allowing players to die on trash pulls, ending battles with full or 90% mana after there are deaths? That's a them problem. What I'm getting at here is that, with a little bit of experience, it's not impossible to tease out cause and effect.
Speaking from a broader perspective, which I often get in MMOs because I love support classes, it's not too difficult to tell where the issues might lie. The important part is determining if it is fixable. A simple "Hey, warrior, mark out the mobs for mezzing, our enchanter is having trouble sticking the mezzes." or "Druid, you got mana, use it!" or "Dire Lord, use your threat generating ability at the beginning of the fight please, the mobs keep slipping the leash and murdering the gnome." does wonders. And, if after a couple pulls, things are still hectic, then kicking from the group becomes part of the equation.
If it's just a regular xp group, then "poor performance" isn't necessarily that bad. But in a "high stakes" scary dungeon situation? Or a deep raid into enemy territory? Then you need to be more discerning. The important thing is to lead with empathy, everyone was new at some point, that's just the nature of linear time.
How do you know your teammate is underporming? "Stop breaking mez!!" "Yes, I can SEE you auto attacking that mob" "Why were you afk during that fight?" Etc. There are plenty of ways to tell when a teammate is not performing.
Obviously the examples I gave are very basic, the more a player understands the game the more they'll recognize their own performance as well as other players. The more you discuss these things with your friends, group, guild, etc the more you'll understand it together.
Wow. Measuring people's worth whilst playing a game! OMG!
A player free loading is different to a player who is trying but just cannot get the mechanics of the game down. Free loaders can do one. Players who are trying should be encouraged not kicked; they will get it. We all under performed when we first started. If there were no patient people out there to help and suggest and teach, then we wouldnt have got very far in our group and raid activities. There is no one out there who has not messed up or had to learn a mechanic and didnt pick it up at first go. No one. Some pick it up quickly, others dont. But in my experience, everyone gets there.
Kicking players because of their (subjective) underperformance is just selfish. If it is general group play, this shouldnt come into it in the slightest or even against group bosses. The only place this should even be considered is in a raid situation and even then, for guild accomplishments or first time raids.
All guilds I was involved in bent over backwards to ensure progression, fun and helped any and everyone who wanted and/or needed it. Its a game; be more accommodating that way everyone might enjoy things a little more.
I would rather have someone who tried and had fun along the way in my group or guild over anyone who thinks they have the right to judge anothers game play and make problems for those who were less than their "idea" of perfect. Its a game not a job. Its for fun.
I agree chenzeme. But what do you suggest for the person in this scenario (I'll just use myself as the example)?
Scenario: All week I've been researching, studying, practicing to take on a certain boss for a shot at an item I know he drops. A group of 5 friends and I have spent 4 hours every night just practicing that fight and losing, but now we've got it all figured out. Tonight is Friday night and I'm planning to finally execute my plan. One of my friends is unable to log in tonight, so we decide to look for a 6th person to replace him. We're specifically looking for someone who knows the fight as well as we do....because this is when we finally execute the plan. Someone joins the group claiming that they know this fight. We show up to the fight and the first thing they do is completely wrong.
What do we do? The nice, unselfish thing to do is abandon our plan and teach this new person the fight. But isn't it also reasonable to say "sorry, you're not up to the task and tonight we really need someone who is prepared." You don't have to be rude or mean about it, people tend to understand.
Edit: Technically the other player was rude for lying about knowing the fight.
How would you handle an underperforming person in your group? Would you take the time to help them or just kick them without saying anything? Please explain your answer.
Since the question technically changed I'll answer again :)
If I had the gumption to lead a guild again I would make it clear from the beginning that we will have times of learning and times of execution. During times of learning any and all are welcome! Let's hang out, have a blast, and learn together! During these times of learning the expectation would be for guild members that have already learned to be doing the teaching. It should be done with a good and patient attitude. It can be fun for the teacher and the learner.
During the times of execution players would be picked based on what they have already learned. If they've proven that they've learned something and they're just having a bad day, it is what it is. They're in the group and we're in it together. Encourage the person, be a good team builder, speak positively, don't tear each other down. We already know that person can perform, they're just not on their game today. So it's not really an issue of kicking someone from the group, it's an issue of who you invite in the first place.
In either case, communication is key. Being clear with expectations, being kind, being respectful, making it clear that there will be times for both groups of people to shine, all of that goes a long way.