Balanz said: A chat in a recent Livestream has captured my attention, regarding the Progeny System, and my own thoughts about Level Caps. As I understand it, Pantheon intends a hard Level Cap of 50, never to increase, and a Progeny System to reward players for Retiring their characters, and start levelling a new Character, their Progeny, with some specific benefits.
Can you supply a link to the Livestream your talking about please?
The concept of a HARD lvl50 cap and Progeny being the advancment is one I have been promoting, I can't say I have ever heard VR flat out say that. But it seems to answer all the issues that kill most MMORPG's
Level creep, Armour/Stat Creep, deserted starter zones, ect
But on the down side it also alienates the "rush to max level" group that from what I understand is arround 25% of the players
But in turn it enhances the experiance for the other 75% of casual players as these "rush to max level" that pass them up will be comming back arround should they choose to progeny.
It also keeps the starter zones active for generations of players to come. I personally have 4 grandsons, the oldest is 13, Empty starter zones, or Everquest Tutorial isn't going to intreage them into playing Pantheon. The TRUE starter experiance of a new, alive world will.
Yet all of this is speculation and assumptions on my part, i can't say VR has ever flat out said it (I like to assume thats because they don't want to alianate that 25% before the game even launches)
The stream he is referring to is the pantheonplusu stream from last sunday. I am the one who said they are not looking forward to the progeny system.
I am not sure where you got the level cap will never increase. I am not sure that has ever been said by anyone. Also I don't think anyone knows exactly how the progeny system will work. The concept was that once you reach max level you will retire your char for a benefit to your new char. It is my understanding that the system isnt entirely hashed out yet and they said they will unveal it at a later date when it is ready to be tested.
I have posted my ideas for progeny several times, but I will do so here again because I really think Progeny is the answer to stale "end game" content, lower level content becoming obsolete and deserted, and new players not being able to find groups as the game matures. All of these are issues every MMO except a very specific handful, face and always lead to problems.
As you say, Progeny cannot be mandatory. It MUST be optional, but still attractive. It also needs to make sense. Things like multi classing or significant power gains over non-progeny characters would be no good. It defeats the core class identity model that VR is going for and would add far too much in power gains.
I think the progeny system SHOULD be just that. A system that lets you build a "Family Tree" of sorts. So as you progeny, your lineage is recorded in a "Family History" book. Recording the name of your main as the originator of your family line with a short bio "written" by the player using canned paragraphs / sentences that can be selected by choosing your favorite achievements that character received. Just a simple option list to choose your favorite 1-5 achievements. Then these canned text blurbs would write out a short story summarizing your character's life in game. Sure everyone might end up with very similar family history, but I think it's better to keep it within lore than let people just get wild with their own story. Make this bio page available for others to see when they select your character.
Also, when retiring your main for a new progeny character, you could pick na heirloom to take with you. A single item that holds some special attachment for your character you'd like to pass forward. This would be a full-on item with stats. Make the item SLIGHTLY better than a fresh drop of the item. VERY slightly. Items of this type could only be "powered up" like this once. When they are, they are locked to that character. All class requires remain, so if you pass down a plate chest to a Summoner it'd be useless for the new character. So choose wisely both your new class and the heirloom. Other Iconic gear could be kept ONLY AS COSMETICS. This way the prestige of your ancestor's achievements and progression could be preserved without making new characters completely overpowered.
Then, as homage to your ancestor, you could take forward a single skill from your previous class, even if you are not of that class, only at a lower power level. This would of course be restricted to certain abilities only. Iconic abilities might not be included or some such. But think like a Wizard being allowed to carry forward their Rogue ancestor's caltrop trap as a lesser snare ability or smoke bomb ability to allow for a more resistible or shorter duration mez skill. Something along those lines. Doesn't add a ton of power but might add a tiny bit more utility. Making that specific Wizard more useful in some very specific instances. These abilities would have no mastery options and would be locked as their base versions. This would make the choice of main class and progeny class more tactical.
This would add slight flavor to classes and afford them a little bit more utility and power through over-leveled gear that is enhanced to a small degree to not only give them a starting boost but a boost even at max level without completely wiping out their previous character's prestige and making the progeny system entirely optional. It adds utility and power, but not so much that it's "required". Maybe something along these lines would make it attractive for the slight utility and power gains, but also for the story and roleplay value. Helping to solve the issue of dead content and new players not having people to play with, as well as giving people more horizontal progression within the lateral progression that will already exist.
kellindil - I don't disagree with a word you said. Neither do I agree - you did something with the font or brightness that makes it totally unreadable for me.
There has been a lot of talk about horizontal progression - ways to introduce content once people start hitting the level-cap without raising the cap. For example - introducing a new area with a new climate that requires different gear that is only usable there. And abilities that are only useful there. So that even a year of gearing up and gaining abilities in the new area will not in any way make the old areas less of a challenge. I hope they do take that route but at the moment I am a lot more concerned about getting to alpha, beta and release than what will happen in the distant future.
Progeny - let us all remember that the system doesn't exist yet. It consists of amorphous possibilities, hopes and fears.
It may require the sacrifice of a high level character - but there are other possibilities. It may allow the creation of a new character more powerful than otherwise possible - but there are other possibilities.
There is ample precedent in the MMO world for getting to level-cap allowing one or more future characters to have more flexibility but not be more powerful, for example. Allowing a different race/class combination. Giving different but not necessarily better skills. Giving skills earlier. Allowing faster experience gain to make the long process of getting to level-cap again less onerous.
Meanwhile the old character may merely be unavailable temporarily (until the new one reaches a certain level for example) or lose certain abilities as a trade-off for the benefits to a new character or not affected at all.
The OP's idea of needing horizontal progression I agree with, although I also understand the need for some kind of "leveling" progression.
Honestly I see no problem in taking 2 years of playing 2 hrs a day 3 days a week on average and 6 hours a day 2 days a week (on wekeends) to get to high teens in 2 years. I say 2 years. just because either leveling is that slow, or because there is so much to see or because there are ability points to earn and expend. The earning and expending of which will also lengthen that leveling time.
As far as progeny I like Kendils idea that there is one item- progenies considering horizontal progression may be seen in 10-15 years time from launch- but there be one item that is unuseable for class or one skil that is unuqie but small. In that example a wizard with caltrops, not game breaking, but noticible.
This makes the progeny idea a nice back-burner thing for devs because it does not have to be available on launch, but can be introduced at a much later date as I see it. Perhaps as part of an expansion giving them enough time to think well about it and if feasible, execute it.
Taking nearly two thousand hours of play to reach the high teens seems excessive to me, unless the content was more amazing than seems humanly possible. Ten to fifteen thousand hours to reach the level cap appears to me doomed to fail. Dedication at fifty hours per week would not leave much room for exploring alternative classes, and suggests an inescapable grind, and the absence of fun.
As a point of comparison, in less than five years of EverQuest, well under ten thousand hours of play, I had a main almost at the level cap, a handful of alts at least 40th level, and another handful of characters around 20th. I knew others with multiple characters close to the level cap.
Admittedly, these are estimates based on decades old memories, but I don't that many players would find such a rate of advancement satisfactory, barring, like I said, a cornucopia of inhumanly awesome content.
Balanz said:Taking nearly two thousand hours of play to reach the high teens seems excessive to me, unless the content was more amazing than seems humanly possible. Ten to fifteen thousand hours to reach the level cap appears to me doomed to fail.
I have to agree with this. Even though my own plans are for very slow leveling.
I expect to spend twice this amount of time ingame weekly, perhaps even more in the first few months. I also plan to play at least 5 characters as adventurers, maybe as many as 8. I plan on at least 3 of them being Crafters (more if I really enjoy Pantheon's Crafting), and all of them doing a fair share of Harvesting in their respective areas.
I'll be fine if I haven't hit lvl 20 after a few months, and still fine with no character at level cap in the first year. I personally aspire to not approach lvl cap until a while after the first expansion. That will hopefully allow all those focused on leveling to get to cap, do the raids and move on to the new content. Then I and my "explore now, level later" friends can continue that approach thru the high-end group content and the raids.
As far as Progeny, I have nothing against the idea. The one thing I have considered about it, which I've heard Joppa comment on and the OP essentially mirrored, is that "The Progeny System must be compelling, but not mandatory". Otherwise it will either be unused or become the meta for all characters from then on. That will be an interesting razor's edge to balance on.
It's the least defined game mechanic I know about and all but certain to be introduced after release if at all, so I haven't spent much time thinking about it.
As a friendly reminder, we have not made an official announcement on the Progeny system and have no information to share, therefore like many threads on this topic before this one, if it strays off topic, turns into heated personal opinions or breaks any of the forum guidelines, this thread will be shut down without warning and any new ones will be removed.
Please respect each other's opinions and have fun with the topic without alienating anyone or setting any hard stances for either side of the arguement.
We will release more information on this system when it is ready for release.
They have talked about future levels in other expansions. My take at the time was effectively every other expansion would likely give 5 level increments.
VR is against mandating progeny. Bringing it up just scares people.
I am not a fan of the name Progeny unless they are killing off the PC to remake the same Class/Race. Relive the past or level through zones you avoided the first time around. Give the PCs nice bonuses, masteries, gear thats not soul bound, large faction gains, etc. Large bonuses are needed due to the high cost of removing a character from the game. Make it the easiest path to obtaining 100% masteries. We know Pantheon will have a cap for leveling masteries, grinding masteries, and quest masteries. Joppa has said players will need to buy or farm those shard mastery drops as well. Having progeny masteries would mean you hit the mastery cap with a different path to obtaining mastery points. It is a big gain in terms of not needing to farm millions of gold, but not a stat gain to meta.
VR should create an alternative Disciple option to tie alts into your main PC. The alts would have the option of taking bonuses from a PC that vouches for them at creation. This would tie individual alts to a different PC on your account.
The bonuses should be simple for a Disciple. A portion of factions (far less than progeny) is a big one. Access to some keeper knowledge (but none of the personal flags) would be nice. Access to housing, ships, shared bank slots, etc
I mention factions a lot because I hope they are a big part of the game. NPCs suddenly trusting random mercenaries seems strange to me.
Progeny should be a semi-retirement, not a death. The progenitor should be unplayable except once in a while (like a long weekend every couple months). This would serve several purposes:
I very much hope that Progeny will unlock a single character slot that isn't bound by class / race restrictions. It should be a new character slot and not a character so we have the option of rerolling without losing the unlocked option. It should not be limited to the class or race of the progenitor since it's too much to ask players to know what they will want to unlock a year or three later when they reach max level.
Jobeson said: Joppa said in one of the mastery videos players won't be able to simply grind all their masteries through xp. So eventually your PC will hit a cap where killing mobs no longer gives mastery XP. We also know you get one bonus mastery per player level (49).
I think you might want to read GoofyWarriorGuy's comment on this thread, as well as my comment two above it on that thread :
https://seforums.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/13652/all-aboard/view/post_id/262136
Jobeson said: @counter I don't understand the logic behind a time gated PC. If you lose access to that pc except for a weekend a month players will still dump everything to Twink.It doesn't have to be time gating, though that makes the most sense since occasional "out of retirement" sessions would be a fun community event and would also feel nostalgic. The underlying idea is that progenitor characters should be still occasionally playable for social and economic reasons. I don't think all progenitors will be stripped of all gear if they are still playable since not all gear will be used by that player's progeny or alts.
All this depends on what the Progeny system will look like and I suspect we have somewhat different ideas of that (and likely we also want somewhat different things from it).
It's worth pointing out that VR has clearly stated at various times that the Mastery System does not have a Cap. You can always gain more Mastery Points as long as you keep adventuring. And eventually you will be able to Master every ability and get every Mastery upgrade in the General Mastery system. It just takes time and effort.
Now this does not mean that every player will get to that point... but there is no artificial Limit to how many Mastery Points they can eventually obtain.
For those who would like a video reference of when they talked about this... Apr 3, 2020 (source):
Joppa said: "This is not a specialization based talent system. At first glace it may look or feel that way, but the goal with Mastery is really the concept of slow and steady investment in all kinds of different horizontal aspects until you have fully realized your full potential; when you have Mastered all of your abilities and you've Mastered the myriad of different ways to improve your character through the Greater Mastery system. It is meant to be something that over time players are able to achieve."
Jobeson said:Joppa said in one of the mastery videos players won't be able to simply grind all their masteries through xp. So eventually your PC will hit a cap where killing mobs no longer gives mastery XP. We also know you get one bonus mastery per player level (49).
In my research on the topic (Insert Plug to http://LibraryofPantheon.com/) I have not found any reference to Joppa saying anything about players not being able to get all their Masteries through XP. I have not found any time that he says that you will eventually stop gaining Mastery XP from killing mobs.
If you continue listening after the quoted part above, he goes on to say that there are other options that can 'speed up' the acquisition of Mastery Points other than just killing. But he does not say that these things are required. He just said that they will 'accelerate the process'.
Later in this same video I linked above Joppa goes on to tell us that "We have kind of a target goal of how many Mastery points we expect or want players to be able to accumulate through leveling by the time they reach 50."
But it should be noted that he does not say that this means you stop gaining Mastery XP once you have reached max level. This just means that they will balance Mastery XP requirements so that players will have a specific goal number of Mastery Points when they reach level 50 if they only get points through leveling. This is basically his way of saying "this is the minimum number of Mastery Points a player will have by the time they hit 50." Or saying it another way "When you reach level 50 you will have at least X number of Mastery Points."
He just doesn't tell us what this X number of Mastery Points will be.
Now perhaps I've missed something in my search on the topic. So Jobeson if you do find the video where he says that "players won't be able to simply grind all their masteries through xp", would you please give us a link to this timestamp. Perhaps we can make sure the http://LibraryofPantheon.com has it labeled right so that others who are interested in the topic can find the reference.
Now since this Topic is technically about Progeny... Joppa did say that the Greater Mastery system will have tie ins to the Progeny system, although he didn't go into detail of what those would be.
What is the 'Greater Mastery System'? I can hear your thoughts as you wonder.
There is both Ability Mastery and Greater Mastery.
Ability Mastery is the 3 stages of upgrades for most Abilities in your Codex (ie Spells in your Spellbook).
Greater Mastery is Alternate Advancement style upgrades to your character such as things like Bonus Run Speed, Dodge Bonus, Increased DoT durations, etc...
They both use the same Mastery Points and you will need to choose if you want use your points on your Abilities upgrades, or on these other upgrades to your character in the Greater Mastery system.
dorotea said:There is ample precedent in the MMO world for getting to level-cap allowing one or more future characters to have more flexibility but not be more powerful, for example. Allowing a different race/class combination. Giving different but not necessarily better skills. Giving skills earlier. Allowing faster experience gain to make the long process of getting to level-cap again less onerous.
I agree with Dorotea here and will piggy back off of it. I want to pose two different scenarios, one with the progeny system retiring the main class and one without.
I'm not a fan of the idea of retiring the main character that is producing a progeny. Especially if the leveling process in Pantheon will take time. I don't want to see people regretting their decision a month later because they're unable to group with higher level friends or guildies. From a lore perspective, it's realistic that a human in their 40's is still very active and powerful while having a child in their 20's. Also, many of the races live much longer than humans making the idea of a permanent retirement of the character sound a bit silly in my head.
Onto ideas for the bonuses of using the progeny system if you keep your main active. I'm thinking of it in terms of what we get from our ancestors through genetics, experiences, and social/financial influence.
- If you pick the same class as your main then you're able to pick any race
- If you pick the same race as your main then you're able to pick any class
- If you pick a different race, you are able to chose the racial passives or actives of either race but not of both (maybe any combination? either replace the active or passive or both)
- Keep 25-50% of your mains faction reputations, whether a positive or negative rep
- Start with a small set number of mastery points that will give you a leg up but not make you overpowered
- As an extra bonus, keep all mastery points your main obtained through items but not quests.
These following bonuses I think should be in addition to the previous ones if the main character is permanently "retired". I'm not a fan of the idea, but have to account for it.
- Keep your username as an option
- All mastery points obtained through quests are now also available.
- Automatic transference of all currency and items/inventory including any inventory slot upgrades purchased
- If there will be soulbound gear in-game, then allow the usage of all soulbound gear (assuming you meet requirements to wear it)
- Start at a higher level. 5 I think is most reasonable. I'd say not anything over 10. This is easy to increase if there are level cap increases over the decades so that creating a progeny isn't overbearing.
Assuming using mastery points is level gated (ex. you can't upgrade Fireball 1 to Fireball 3 as soon as you get it), then nothing on this list is game breaking or mandatory. We've already seen from previous aesthetic conversations that looks are super important to people. They would definitely put in the time and effort for this system. Plus, it would be incredibly cool see an ogre paladin and know the dedication it took to obtain that.
None of this conflicts with any lore I know, granted I'm not a lore seeker. If certain class orders are against accepting specific races, make it so you go back to your NPC parents to train new skills. Or explain it as your parents having the influence to pull enough strings to give you a pass. The races aren't compatible for reproduction? You were adopted and raised by them. Lots of ways to get around the lore here for interchangeable classes/races.
As for level cap in general, I don't think there should be any integration between the progeny system and level cap. Doing that would start verging too close into the "strongly encouraged but not really mandatory" category for me.
I think this is one of those concepts that the developers have on their radar but obviously need to get past Alpha/Beta/Launch before they decide if it will be implemented. It's an extremely late game system - something they can add in once a majority of the player base is comfortably at max level and looking for more things to do.
I'm assuming they're drawing inspiration from Dungeons and Dragons online and maybe games like Starwars the Old Republic, Elderscrolls Online and EQ. They all implemented account wide progression and/or character progression after level cap.
I honestly hope they consider calling the Progeny system something else as that has a lot of implications and design hindrances as opposed to an account-wide alternate advancement system. Having to retire a level 50 character is a huge cost and something of that cost should have an equally meaningful reward. If you look at the Dungeons and Dragons online system you obtained pretty meaningful rewards and it became a very powerful way of increasing your accounts power over-time. Someone that had rebirthed characters numerous times had huge advantages over someone else joining the game for the first time. But you can also argue that's also true for an EQ character with maxed out AAs on an Elder Scrolls account with maxed out champion points. I think catch up mechanics and rehauls are much easier with AAs and champion points though - it's much harder to put catch up mechanics when sacrificing a max level character is the cost involved.
I'm excited to see what they come up with - but I'd be equally ok with them dropping the system all together or reinvisioning a different kind of end-game account-wide progression.
Maybe I am totally missing a few things but to me the concepts of progeny and having a mastery or alternate advancement (AA) type system are totally unrelated. Other than the obvious fact that different systems often have similar goals and players will almost always try to use different systems synergystically when they can.
Progeny, as I see it, will be a system that gives some reward for getting to maximum level. A reward that benefits future characters. That is pretty much all we know at this point and even this is far from sure. No God has decreed that in a very slow leveling game part of the reward cannot be triggered before maximum level. No God has decreed that the benefit cannot apply in part to existing characters as of the time the progenized character hits maximum level. No God has decreed that the progenized character cannot gain some benefits from the progenization (assuming such does not consist of eliminating the character). But reward applicable to one or more new characters after an older character hits maximum level will almost surely be the guts of the system.
Mastery or AA will be a system allowing choices in how characters will be developed. Possibly during the leveling process. Possibly only at maximum level (to give an incentive to still try to gain xp even after hitting the maximum level). It may focus on differentiation and meaningful choice. Thus assigning AA or mastery points to make an archer class the ideal ranged sniper or the ideal pet user but not both. Or allowing a mage to focus on burst damage or damage over time but not both. Or it may simply focus on improving the character with every character able to do everything with enough investment of time and effort.
Obviously we can have progeny as so described without mastery or AA. We can have mastery or AA as so dexcribed without progeny. Some people seem to be assuming that a progeny system will have elements of mastery or AA built into it. I assume the opposite.
I think a lot about the implications of Pantheon's stated Design Goals and Principles, but I am relying largely on the impressions I get from listening to YouTube videos like the Developers Livestreams, Pantheon Plus, Bazgrim, and Nathan Napalm. I am responsible for my own misunderstandings.
That said, I am under the impression that the Quest System is closely tied to Perception, and that one member of a Group can bring an entire Party to a Quest in some way.
If something like that is true, then non-mandatory systems can give rise to Quests that can be shared by a Group. That suggests many such opportunities that will incentivise participation in optional systems, and grouping with those not participating in those systems.
An obvious example would be gathering materials for a crafter. The crafter needs the group to acquire the materials, but the other members of the group need no craft.
Likewise, someone on an Epic Quest needs a group to pursue that quest, even if others are not pursuing the same Quest.
That is why I thought the Progeny System might be yet another opportunity for players to share in the Quests of others.