Not only negative effects, but positives as well. FIreball spell in the rain? Less effective. Lightning spell in the rain? More effective. Running against the wind means a slower run speed but with the wind should be faster. Rain should make the ground slippery so that changes in direction are not immediate. Any PC race that has a bonus to see in the dark should be penalized during the day and vice versa.
All that said, get the #%&*@% game finished first then think about implementing stuff like this. You're >8 years already, still in PA, Alpha isn't even on the horizon. You've got more than enough to do already.
Kilsin said:Community Opinion - Weather Systems - Do you think rain and wind should have negative effects on your character? Please explain the reason for your answer. #MMORPG #CommunityMatters #weather
I agree with Vandraad's first comment whole heartedly, negatives as well as positives. I would add that lightning bolt in the rain should have a bit of an AOE effect. My reasoning being the Panthon team has repeatadly emphasized PVEnviorment... With that I have to say I expect it to have Negative and positive effects. For Pantheon to launch and Rain and Wind just be a cosmetic like every other MMO out there would be quite a let down, are you building "just another MMO" or are you building an MMORPG?
Witht that said, I totally disagree with his last comment. Pantheon shouldn't launch without it. These things should be implemented before Launch.
Not before Alpha. Alpha has a roadmap, follow it.
The base for these should be part of Beta's roadmap, and fully implemented before Launch no matter how long it takes.
Vandraad said:Not only negative effects, but positives as well. FIreball spell in the rain? Less effective. Lightning spell in the rain? More effective. Running against the wind means a slower run speed but with the wind should be faster. Rain should make the ground slippery so that changes in direction are not immediate. Any PC race that has a bonus to see in the dark should be penalized during the day and vice versa.
All that said, get the #%&*@% game finished first then think about implementing stuff like this. You're >8 years already, still in PA, Alpha isn't even on the horizon. You've got more than enough to do already.
IMO:
Yep, exactly what Vandraad said.
OR
Make it positives only, and skip the negatives entirely. Or in addition to a subsest of classes being able to on/off any/all "natural" weather effects, let consumables be created by all crafting classes that ignore the negatives and boost the positives further, for all weather effects.
But for real, get something payable/playable, THEN worry about adding non-core features like this. This can be added, trivially, post launch, if you have an actual client->server->persistence model with even 1996 levels of tech. For reference, Meridian59 had this. I played it, and experienced their weather-by-zone effects, and it was fine, good enough, ok, etc.
You've now had 2.67 "EQ1's" worth of development time, regardless of the restarts, reasons, excuses, mistakes, "refactors", fixes, and alterations to design. Tick Tock, there's no public date for Alpha.
Agree on the effects parts of Vandraad's post. Opposites should be affected by their inverse. Water should affect fire, cold spells and the like should be more effective in hot climes, heat in cold climes. I would like to see it expand a bit too, lightning hitting a lake should affect anyone at the surface of the lake. Torches should be affected by wind and rain, reducing the extent of the range of light and spluttering that light too. Mist should make distant lights blurred. Snow and mud should affect run speeds.
It all makes for a more immersive experience when you see things that logically make sense in the real world happen in game.
Define "negative effects."
My opinion is that the environment and changing weather effects should enhance gameplay through immersion. How realistic do you want weather effects to emulate real life? Is it fair to compare real life to the experience we want in a video game? If yes, then we're talking an infinite level of variables depending on the direction and velocity of the wind relative to our character, the volume of rainfall and conditions of the ground we're on (is it muddy? rocky? did the wind pick up in a dusty environment and produce dust clouds? how long does that last before the rain saturates the ground and stops dust from flying? are we moving with the wind or against?). The level of weather that it would take to negatively effect your character would likely also effect the terrain (eg, branches snapping off trees or even uprooting, flash flood waters carrying debris, mudslides altering terrain, etc)... those kind of effects are probably beyond the scope of what we're talking about, I would think, and that's not even talking about severe types of weather like hurricanes or tornados, which would (should) obviously alter terrain in-game.
Instead of all that... would we be talking something more like, say, 5 levels of rain and / or wind? There should be reduction of visibility with rain, maybe starting at level 3 rain? Level 4 rain being further reduced and say level 5 rain (being rare) would cause you to only maybe see 50 feet? Also, at night, maybe levels 4 & 5 rain precludes use of torches / campfire? Similarly, wind would probably have negligible effects at level 1 or 2, but at 3, we start hearing it more and reducing our listening distance, level 4 then even more so with a 5% movement modifier (again depending on if we're moving with or against) and maybe 10-15% at level 5? Level 4-5 wind also reducing visibility if it's a dusty environment by some degree?
Personally, I would like to see minimal negative effects so that rather than hating it when it comes and trying to avoid weather or hoping NOT to see it happen, we actually get to experience the weather and enjoy the change of scenery as it happens. Although it would be funny if the occasionaly thunderstorm struck trees in the area and if you happened to be near it, took X amount of electrical damage! haha... Meteorology as a side-skill to be able to place weather stations, forecast weather for a zone?? Link up data with other meteorologists to cover multiple areas? ;-)
Kilsin said:
Community Opinion - Weather Systems - Do you think rain and wind should have negative effects on your character? Please explain the reason for your answer. #MMORPG #CommunityMatters #weather
I'm leaning against negative effects--particularly serious ones--unless players have tools to play around those effects.
I guess to explain my thinking: I don't want the weather to interrupt gameplay. If a storm rolls in while I'm trying to meet up with a group and suddenly the wind and rain keeps me from climbing a cliff to reach them, then that would suck. In that instance we're all just stuck; Our thumbs are jammed in orifices waiting for the storm to pass--that's no fun.
However, if the effect is less serious--something like being more susceptible to lightning attacks--then you can still meet up with your group and your group could prioritize interrupting lighting skills. It provides players an opportunity to play around negative circumstances opposed to being hard blocked by them.
Meaningful weather works in survival games because players are always provided tools that they can use to continue gameplay. Tools like starting a fire to warm up and dry off, or building a shelter to block the wind and rain. However in an MMO prioritizing social play it gets a bit more complicated.
A good way to implement weather effects in gameplay would be dope.
Spring weather:
-Possible earth-like spells and melee abilities to work more effectively
-Have wind be very minimal to just like advance slower in the game.
-Dust storms to blur far distance scenery
Summer Weather:
-Possible fire and chromatic spells to work more efficiently
-Exhaustion
-Slight increased liquid consumption
-Body heat
Fall weather:
-Possible race / class trait boost or increase Druid (etc) spells effectiveness
-Slippery roads, terrain
Winter weather:
-Possible enhancement of cold spells to all classes
-Travel slower
Probably minor negative effects in extreme weather. I've seen servers where when there was snow the PC would suffer -1 HP every 5 seconds but there was a cloak that absorbed cold damage from the store for a price. Underwater should take hitpoint damage if the PC is under there for too long. Maybe in a very hot desert they would also incur penalties to mana (fatigue) or negative dexterity due to heat and sand. But over-doing it should be avoided at all costs because it impedes gameplay. Immersion is one thing but being inside the storm of Jupiter is another.
The weather system should only modify the PC and NPC states and possibly environmental acclimation values.
For example, during rain all characters should be in a wet state. If it is a thunderstorm with lots of wind and lighting your state should be set to wet, cold, and afraid. Now whatevever spells take advantage or disadvantage of those states should be used or not.
The environment acclimation values should also be Affected but a little bit. If the environment you are in has a cold acclimation of 2, if it begins to rain long enough it should go up to 3.
Yes to weather effects. They should be intuitive and impactful, but not in a 'I have to sit around and wait for this to pass' way. Weather should add variety and present tactical challenges, but it shouldn't shut things down entirely.
There should be a healthy mix of positive and negative effects on players and NPCS. Mob tactics and behavior should also change. There should even be a few places where certain mobs only come out under certain circumstances. For instance, if undead only come out at night, they could also come out if the fog is thick enough.
Weather should be often long lasting (lasting a couple hours or more in RL), seasonal, geographically appropriate, and not arbitrary. It should feel like real weather and not RNG weather or 'let's show off all weather systems by frequently cycling between them'.
chenzeme said:Torches should be affected by wind and rain, reducing the extent of the range of light and spluttering that light too. Mist should make distant lights blurred. Snow and mud should affect run speeds.
I completely agree.
I think Head, face, hands and foot coverings would have counter effects against wind and rain.
This could also be newbie exposure to climatization/atmospheres. As a sidenote, maybe the artists can create a character graphic accross all races that shows them squinching their face in the rain if they dont have a cap or mask.
rain and wind will effect run speed and vision. If you have shoes, you can run at a normal pace in rain but need to counter wind. In rain , if you have a cap or mask you can see better m if not you need to raise your arm to chield and that will affect run speed.
Kilsin said:Community Opinion - Weather Systems - Do you think rain and wind should have negative effects on your character? Please explain the reason for your answer. #MMORPG #CommunityMatters #weather
Wind: yes to instability on cliff edges, yes to increased skill challenge to hit with ranged attack, yes to durability used when running against strong winds, yes to wind pushing you aside on a slippery/icy floors, yes to increased endurance cost when swimming in deep water with high winds, yes to decreased timer of lit torches/candles/other flamable light source, yes to blowing out lightsources in extreme windy conditions, yes to being sucked down/away by heavy draftwinds.
Why? it makes the game come alive. It doesn't have to be too devastating, but to a degree, sure.
Rain: slippery when wet anyone?, yes to increased endurance cost when climbing wet surfaces, increased accuracy challenge when in heavy rainfall, yes to be more impacted by electrical or cold detriments (depending on race?), yes to decreased range of perception during rainfall, yes to increase in fizzle chance by casters if the spell is not that weather condition, yes to a decrease of range when using effects with a certain range, yes to a decrease of trap effectiveness, yes to a decrease in disarm trap skill (or increase in challenge), spell or abilities that render or require sound are less effective in rain
This mechanic seems quite complex and I'll have to see how that plays out in zone with 50 people in a storm. But that seems like a good thing to test prior to full launch.
Kilsin said:Community Opinion - Weather Systems - Do you think rain and wind should have negative effects on your character? Please explain the reason for your answer. #MMORPG #CommunityMatters #weather
I think that it would be interesting to see whether have an effect on characters. I wouldn't want to see any true survival like mechanics, however, weather causing players and mobs to enter different states could lead to more dynamic gameplay opportunities. The only pitfall is that such a mechanic may need to be balanced for certain fights where it could be exploited or lead to overturned encounters.
It would definitely add to the immersive quality of the game, and it would further include the environment in the PvE aspect of the game. Really interested to see if this concept takes shape and is eventually implemented.
Edit: Also along the same line. It would be interesting to see objects in the world that could counter the effects of weather. Maybe a fire source could remove the drenched status faster or maybe the status caused by wind could be blocked if you are in a sheltered area.
I like the idea of weather applying not only a status of say, wet and cold, but there exists the potential of causing fear and disorientation al la Titanias and the "wet, cold, and afraid" bit.
Weather systems should be part and parcel of climates, atmospheres, fractures, and whatever else those effects/conditions are called now.
Dispositions and Traits of NPCs seem like kissing cousins to the potential treasure trove of weather systems.
SNOW troll: -stronger when snowing -regeneration does not work in direct sunlight -fear aura at night -in a cold climate, entering the water increases its AC due to a coating of ice. And so on.
Just a list of if/then conditions.
Go team!
I think the biggest reason that Pantheon will differentiate itself from other "games" is weather. I think rain and wind should have a positive and negative on players, in the world. I'm really looking forward to it.
A note to those that think Pantheon has been under development for >8 years. Please try to understand that's just not true. Please realize that the game world has gone under massive revisions in many ways. Imo, and I hope Kilsin is ok with me saying this, but things really changed in 2020. Terminus is ...years...away from publication. A quick look at the well publicized Road to Alpha, delineates a major part of that path. If you insist that nothing has changed massively in the past >8 years you will make yourself crazy. I understand people want the game to "come out already". It's just not close to ready.
Lots of great posts here and I agree - positive and negative effects would be great...
The lightning storm could maybe = enhanced Air, Water, Wind and Lightning spells but due to wet robes/armour your movement or spell casting may suffer slightly. A good balance to keep it fun without turning it into a survival MMO or making adventure a hindrance.
Kilsin said:Lots of great posts here and I agree - positive and negative effects would be great...
The lightning storm could maybe = enhanced Air, Water, Wind and Lightning spells but due to wet robes/armour your movement or spell casting may suffer slightly. A good balance to keep it fun without turning it into a survival MMO or making adventure a hindrance.
Yes, actually a Lightning Storm would have all the above effects, I hadn't considered that in my earler post. Your use of the word "slightly" concernes me however, if it's Slightly as in not even really noticable then whats the point? Best not even waste the time on putting the mechanic in all and instead rush to Launch. So many things go into MMO's "slightly" and are then ignored (selling items and the faction bonus at merchant's in EQ... who cares, it's not worth the run to another merchant... it NEEDS to be worth the run or don't waste the time to even put it in) . I hope VR doesen't fear "turning it into a survival MMO" so much that they leave these types of things trivial. Tenent's 6,9,11, and expecially 18 and 20 tell me these mechanics should be significant, giving way to some players that would rant "Survival MMO".
As you point out, Balance is key, the mechanics need to go into the system adjustable, then ramp them UP in Beta until VR hears the grumbeling from the testers (keeping in mind the silent majority that don't have a problem with it and are enjoying it, these players have no reason to speak up) and then back it off a little. There will always be the volcal minority that simply want to hack and slash, day in and day out, that won't want realistic mechanics that are going to rant at anything that get's in their way.
Kilsin The lightning storm could maybe = enhanced Air, Water, Wind and Lightning spells but due to wet robes/armour your movement or spell casting may suffer slightly. A good balance to keep it fun without turning it into a survival MMO or making adventure a hindrance.
Agreed. However I do think climbing (for example) should be affected a great deal by weather. This would naturally be negated by your climbing skill and eventually you would be able to easily climb in a downpour. I get the point about not being able to climb to a group in the middle of a storm, but if there is enough warning of the coming storm (i.e. lightning and thunder in the distance) then you should be able to get where you need to go before it hits.
As long as a weather effect can be lessened by skill or equipment, then apply away. Balance always, but challenging, definately.
Zorkon: So many things go into MMO's "slightly"...
This is a good point, unless there is a significant detriment when first encountered then there is no point in having it there. If the detrement can be over come in some manner by skill and training or equipment or spell, then make it meaningful, otherwise, leave it out.
Kilsin said:Lots of great posts here and I agree - positive and negative effects would be great...
The lightning storm could maybe = enhanced Air, Water, Wind and Lightning spells but due to wet robes/armour your movement or spell casting may suffer slightly. A good balance to keep it fun without turning it into a survival MMO or making adventure a hindrance.
Yes, and for plate and chain being heavier they would have more traction, but in muddy conditions more prone to an AGI reduction due to slipping? or DEX reduction due to having to rebalance because of slipping?. I'm thinking an easy -but annoying- mechanic would be to represent the slipperiness and falling by having the melee put in sit position where they would have to stand. It would help if the screen display went sideways instead of looking like your keyboard froze to the player.
Actually I think that's the only thing that made that mechanic annoying was not being able to tell in a fun way. If a Boss knocked you down and you had to stand, on screen it just looked to you like nothing changed (if first person immersion) so it thrust you out of game and into at-home IT self-support panic fix mode. Like the screen going black for blindness for the first time. Instead, if the view went sideways, I would know, oh, I fell, and I would know to have to stand the character up.
oh here's a twist, since melee are characteristically haters of underwater fighting, because of their plate and chain they would actually be better at underwater fighting and more stable where casters would have more Einstein momentum effects (for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction). Where's the wizard? he cast fireball and shot himself backwards that way a pace. Well, get the monk to run into him from behind before he casts next time, that way while the monk is throwing the shiruken, as he hits the wizard from behind the kinetic energy will transfer to his arm with the shiruken and fling it harder. At the same time the wizard casts the fireball negating the wizards back thrust momemtum against the monk's charge. So we get fireball damage and extra shiruken damage. The monk will use the wizard like an Atl-atl by running into him, but the timing has to be right. "...oh.."
I'm a big fan of immersive weather effects - both positive and negative, ideally simultaneously. Adding another layer to how you must plan and engage to take advantage of the weather would be great while mitigating negative impacts would be great. Mitigating those negative impacts should be something intuitive as well and not relegated to just drinking the right potion.
I agree with the idea that weather should have negative affects on both Players and Mobs, thus sometimes helping those who are fighting said mobs.
I don't think weather's affects should be as strong as the Climate effects that we need glyphs to deal with. I'd also like to know how wind as part of the weather will interact with the 'wind shear' effect.
Heavy rainfall could make PC/NPC weapons more easily disarmed (excluding dwarves). Gatherers might unearth worms more readily, which could then be used for fishing. Players auctioning wares might equip umbrellas in one hand, similar to torches at night, to minimize exposure to the rain.
Gusts of wind could be signficantly reduced by a character's weight, giving heavy armor pieces an additional use outside of combat and making large races surefooted in windswept areas. Coin weight could also be factored in, making it beneficial in certain areas to hold onto silver and copper. Being put in an off-balance state could also be more common in wind-buffeted areas. Rangers could potentially make use of the wind as well, increasing the distance of vale hawks and loosed arrows. Ex.: A monk pulling mobs on the other side of a natural wind tunnel, uses feign death and coordinates with ranger to tag singles out. Instead of the monk having to constantly sprint back towards the group, against the wind every time, they can remain on the other side. The mobs being tagged by the ranger would be delayed by the winds, allowing the group more time to communicate how best to CC any adds. Though, it seems likely that mobs native to / spawning in the area would be immune to or less hampered by the wind, further complicating pulls.
Beneficial and detrimental interruptions from the weather would make the overall experience feel as though it was taking place in a world more so than a game. This would make the reliable xp locations less predictable and it could also make attempts at roleplaying seem less forced, because the person behind the character has more to take in, be aware of, and react to with genuine emotions.