Hey everyone, first time posting on these forums.
I'm curious to know people's opinion on skill weaving in games, and what their expectations for Pantheon are. I'm not referring to skill animation clipping or anything that isn't working as intended by the devs. Moreso instantaneous skills that either can be used within the global cooldown or don't trigger the global cooldown.
This would make combat feel faster paced and busier. I currently like it in other games, but not sure if it would take away from the slower intentional combat I believe Pantheon is shooting for in this game.
What are your thoughts on it? Likes and dislikes? Pros and cons?
I imagine they will have quite a generous GCD in line with a lot of older games, like 1.5 seconds or something. If that's the case I doubt it would affect any feeling of a slow, tactical combat system. Even a small child or a 90-year old can probably reliably hit a 1500ms input window without feeling particularily rushed. Try setting your keyboard or mouse input delay to 1500 and you'll see what i mean.
Thunderleg said:
Hopefully, the situation will dictate skill usage and not be dictated by a static weaving meta rotation. We shall see.
I wouldn't like a static rotation either. It's probably why I enjoy healing in mmo's the most since it's very reactive casting. I was envisioning skills that add to the tactical/skill level like combos with other classes. (ex. a rogue uses a short strong poison, I use an instant skill that's low damage but as a bonus greatly increases current debuff damage output).
Spluffen said:I imagine they will have quite a generous GCD in line with a lot of older games, like 1.5 seconds or something. If that's the case I doubt it would affect any feeling of a slow, tactical combat system. Even a small child or a 90-year old can probably reliably hit a 1500ms input window without feeling particularily rushed. Try setting your keyboard or mouse input delay to 1500 and you'll see what i mean.
Even 1.5 second GCD sounds high. I'd like something closer to 2s. Otherwise I could see some faster classes go into sub-1 second gcd's with buffs and class skills. I don't know what would be the ideal number.
Spluffen said:I imagine they will have quite a generous GCD in line with a lot of older games, like 1.5 seconds or something. If that's the case I doubt it would affect any feeling of a slow, tactical combat system. Even a small child or a 90-year old can probably reliably hit a 1500ms input window without feeling particularily rushed. Try setting your keyboard or mouse input delay to 1500 and you'll see what i mean.
The objection has nothing to do with one's ability to react in a given period of time. It has to do with slowing things down so there's less a feeling that you're in a frenetic pace. So that you have time to talk, to interact with your group mates, to chill.
Not everyone wants a button mashing marathon. Many want nothing even close.
Feastycentral said:Even 1.5 second GCD sounds high. I'd like something closer to 2s. Otherwise I could see some faster classes go into sub-1 second gcd's with buffs and class skills. I don't know what would be the ideal number.
I was just looking at my gf playing ffxiv trying to figure out how long the gcd is and it seems to be like 3 seconds and imo that game doesn't look that wonky or sluggish to play, granted i haven't actually felt it out myself.
Feyshtey said:The objection has nothing to do with one's ability to react in a given period of time. It has to do with slowing things down so there's less a feeling that you're in a frenetic pace. So that you have time to talk, to interact with your group mates, to chill.
Not everyone wants a button mashing marathon. Many want nothing even close.
Yea I understand that, I was just thinking that people probably don't understand how much leeway something like an off-GCD thing will give them and that it probably won't be any of the "button mashing" that they think it will. You're saying "It has to do with slowing things down" and not with one's ability to react but that's what i was saying too. My point was reaction time isn't an issue at all BECAUSE thats way more time than it'd seem. Probably about the same time as some entire cast times. Is the game "frenetic" if you cast several 1.5 second spells back to back? Doubt it.
Feastycentral said:I was envisioning skills that add to the tactical/skill level like combos with other classes.
VR said early on that they aren't planning on 'combos' as such. However they have something called "States" than enemies can be put into as a byproduct of certain abilities (usually damage-causing ones). Functionally they are fairly short-term vulnerabilites that multiple Classes can cause, and multiple others can capitalize on. The end result is very similiar to a combo mechanic.
The list of possible States we know about already includes:
Bleeding
Weakened
Disoriented
Fatigued
Off-balance
Surprised
Windswept
Burning
Angry
Vulnerable
Chilled
Frozen
Helpless
Hmm is Knocked down a state too or just an effect of being knocked down after being in off balance state? hehe.
I'm squarely on the side of staying far away from twitchy combat as possible. Not just with abilities but I also don't want to have to dodge and roll and crap too like say GW2 or plenty of others or play an FPS hehe.
Actually I've been a bit worried seeing combat post re-factor compared to earlier streams of Amberfaet, Tower of Reckless Magician, BRK. Overall difficulty and TTK wise.
This is a fun post.
So can Targets be placed in multiple 'states'? If they can would the first hit exploiting the 'state' clear the un-exploited' state'?
Is there a ranking of the 'states'? Where one 'state' could clear another.
Can the Fatigued 'state' get overwritten by Surprised?
Or can Chilled be cleared by Burning?
I can't wait to try stuff out, I'll have to make a wizard as an alt.
Spluffen said:I was just looking at my gf playing ffxiv trying to figure out how long the gcd is and it seems to be like 3 seconds and imo that game doesn't look that wonky or sluggish to play, granted i haven't actually felt it out myself.
That's actually one of the games I currently play. They have a 2.5s GCD. It is much faster paced than you'd expect once you factor in off global cooldown skills from the later levels. I wouldn't want it to be that busy, more so situational skills.
Jothany said:VR said early on that they aren't planning on 'combos' as such. However they have something called "States" than enemies can be put into as a byproduct of certain abilities (usually damage-causing ones). Functionally they are fairly short-term vulnerabilites that multiple Classes can cause, and multiple others can capitalize on. The end result is very similiar to a combo mechanic.
The list of possible States we know about already includes:
Bleeding
Weakened
Disoriented
Fatigued
Off-balance
Surprised
Windswept
Burning
Angry
Vulnerable
Chilled
Frozen
Helpless
That's still similar to the combo example I gave. Swap poison to any of the states you listed. The mechanic you explained is exactly what I was imagining. Since they're short-term vulnerabilities then I was wondering if something off the global cooldown would be used to capitalize. It would really dependon on how short-term we're talking about to see if that's even needed.
Thank you for this list though! Super cool.
Stonefish said:This is a fun post.
So can Targets be placed in multiple 'states'? If they can would the first hit exploiting the 'state' clear the un-exploited' state'?
Is there a ranking of the 'states'? Where one 'state' could clear another.
Can the Fatigued 'state' get overwritten by Surprised?
Or can Chilled be cleared by Burning?
I can't wait to try stuff out, I'll have to make a wizard as an alt.
Fantastic questions! I wish I knew the answers. It'll be cool if only certain states that dont' contradict each other could be applied at once time. Assuming more than one can be applied.
I'm sure you won't need a wizard at all, as I can see many of those states being applied by several classes. Do you know what your main class will be?
GeneralReb said:Hmm is Knocked down a state too or just an effect of being knocked down after being in off balance state? hehe.
I made the list from what I found on the official class pages on this site. But I also remember Knockdown, I think from the Monk reveal. I'm pretty sure it was an official State of some kind of vulnerability.
Feastycentral said:Since they're short-term vulnerabilities then I was wondering if something off the global cooldown would be used to capitalize. It would really dependon on how short-term we're talking about to see if that's even needed.
Not that I've timed any of it, but I think States last at least a couple of cycles of the GCD. So anyone who keeps an eye out for States should have time to switch up their plan of attack and use their 'benefitting' ability.
I don't want any global cool down, for me this is a bane on gaming. I much prefer each individual skill/ability to have it's own cooldown. If there is any such thing as animation cancelling like ESO where it's mandatory I'm out, that to me is a broken game.
Jothany said:Feastycentral said:I was envisioning skills that add to the tactical/skill level like combos with other classes.
VR said early on that they aren't planning on 'combos' as such. However they have something called "States" than enemies can be put into as a byproduct of certain abilities (usually damage-causing ones). Functionally they are fairly short-term vulnerabilites that multiple Classes can cause, and multiple others can capitalize on. The end result is very similiar to a combo mechanic.
The list of possible States we know about already includes:
Bleeding
Weakened
Disoriented
Fatigued
Off-balance
Surprised
Windswept
Burning
Angry
Vulnerable
Chilled
Frozen
Helpless
splitpawthanos said:I don't want any global cool down, for me this is a bane on gaming. I much prefer each individual skill/ability to have it's own cooldown. If there is any such thing as animation cancelling like ESO where it's mandatory I'm out, that to me is a broken game.
You want to literally be able to run your finger across the number keys and fire off all your abilities at the exact same time?
philo said: Here are some more status listings. It's an old list.Stunned Rooted Silenced Mesmerized Incapacitaed Afraid Asleep Polymorphed Snared Charmed Disorented Angry Blind PrimaryHandDisarmed SecondaryHandDisarmed Wet Hot Burning Cold Frozen Poisoned Cursed Diseased UnderPressure Suffocating KnockedDown OffBalance Levitating Fatigued Electrified Enraged Fleeing Taunted Stealth Invisible Bleeding Intoxicated Weakened Vulnerable Surprised Revived InCombat AutoAttacking Casting Feigned Invulnerable CantTurn Sitting SeeInvisible PerfectDefense Immortal Max
That's quite an addition. A lot of possibilities to capitalize on.
Thanks!
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I have no problems with some skills being off of the global cooldown--that is if Pantheon even has a global cooldown since as far as I can tell all of their skills is restricted by either class resources or individual cooldowns. It can be fun to situationally throw in a little something extra here or there.
However, I would have a problem if VR designed the rest of combat to be like Final Fantasy XIVs combat. Thoughtlessly pressing 3-6 abilities in a set rotation is one of the main reasons I didn't enjoy playing that particular game.
Edit: Okay, after rewatching the most recent Cohh stream it does appear that there is a global cooldown in Pantheon, but it's extremely unrestrictive relative to the cooldown and resource restrictions on the abilities.
@Feastycentral, first of all, welcome to the forums. Great first post :)
Your question makes me think of some abilities from Vanguard, such as the Paladin's "Paragon" ability. It didn't trigger the global cooldown, so you could hit it immediately prior to another ability, but it had its own cooldown and resource usage. I always liked that ability.
I suspect, if things like that make it into Pantheon, they will be class-specific. I also hope they're optional. I can easily imagine playing a Monk where I want to "burn" my Chi to do extra damage by weaving such abilities into my regular rotation. But I'd also like to be able to equip different abilities on my hotbar and not have to worry about it.
Personally, I'd dearly love it (although I have no reason at all to expect it) if Pantheon would let my character fight on its own with no input at all from me during the combat. Part of this is because I've always enjoyed games that let me play an entire party, and part of it is because I genuinely wish games like Pantheon - persistent, long-term, social - were more accessible to people with severe disabilities, who aren't able to accurately control a character in real time. Again, I have no reason to expect this in Pantheon, and it's not something I'm trying to make happen - just trying to give context to how I look at things.
For the most part, I’m with everyone else preferring slower more tactical combat over spell weaving spell rotation; however, the only exception for me might be specific to a bard class if they can find a way to to weave songs (buffs/debuffs) without making it a mindless rotation. I think it would play well into roleplaying the instrumental aspect of a bard and allow more advanced bard players to really showcase in a party.
When you think about it, MMO combat is made up of 3 games within the game: healing, damage, and crowd control. Anyone who has played multiple classes in an MMO knows that combat feels completely different depending on which of these three roles you are filling. The exception being the bard, who generally clicks a few buffs and then pretends to be a damage dealer. It would be nice to have your own "game" to play during combat.