Hello all, i was meaning to make this post earlier but i forgot, the recent March newsletter reminded me.
LFG Tool: To Do
What it is: Develop a UI and supporting infrastructure to allow players to list themselves as looking for a group, or looking for additional members, using specified criteria in order to find other players to pursue shared gameplay goals.
So this sounds like a good idea on paper but im going to explain why i'd like the devs to scrap it completely and just go ahead and give us a proper dungeon finder.
The only other MMO where if have seen a LFG group tool like the one described here in WoW TBC and TBC classic and in both versions of classic it was never used, i often test it at peak times and nobody is listed.
There is an odd phenomemon in gaming where something is not be used by the players even if it works, simply because no one uses it.
Its the same with LOTRO dungeon finder to an extent it has other issues, no one ques for a dungeon because they think no one else is queing for dungeons.
Luckily this LFG tool is in the to do list so here is my advice.
1. Dont do it at all, use no time or resources on something i can assure you no one will use as history has shown.
2. Just make it a literal dungeon finder WoW WOTLK style (which everyone used throughout the games existent even to this day)
Just to be clear, I am not asking for a copy/paste of WoWs dungeon finder, i think many people, myself included would be upset by being teleported to the dungeon entrance after a group is found.
All the tool needs to do is automatically form a group then we set off.
The whole community loss aspect of LFG finder i think isnt a concern at all, you can talk while in the dungeon or on your way to the entrance, spamming LF Tank is not a conversation and you learn little to nothing about those you group with during the process.
Thank you for reading, what do you think?
I guess it doesn't really matter if they make it and no one uses it or if they skip it, i guess. Sometimes automatic groups can get a little unbalanced but I guess that's also fine as long as you don't get teleported, you can just figure out if the group looks good enough before you set out.
Imo you should probably be careful with a too automated system like the one in WotLK though, one with teleports and whatnot. I have a hunch that it is more or less responsible for 5 man dungeons being nerfed into irrelevance in that and later expansions. Harder dungeons end up being really frustrating if you can't control the makeup of your party other than a level bracket and a couple of role choices. And if they instead make the dungeons a cakewalk i guess that's the entire appeal of Pantheon in the drain.
But yea, out of doing what they're doing or doing one of the things you suggest i can't really see how any of them would make much of a difference, regardless if they end up being used or not, *shrug*
Spluffen said:I guess it doesn't really matter if they make it and no one uses it or if they skip it, i guess. Sometimes automatic groups can get a little unbalanced but I guess that's also fine as long as you don't get teleported, you can just figure out if the group looks good enough before you set out.
Imo you should probably be careful with a too automated system like the one in WotLK though, one with teleports and whatnot. I have a hunch that it is more or less responsible for 5 man dungeons being nerfed into irrelevance in that and later expansions. Harder dungeons end up being really frustrating if you can't control the makeup of your party other than a level bracket and a couple of role choices. And if they instead make the dungeons a cakewalk i guess that's the entire appeal of Pantheon in the drain.
But yea, out of doing what they're doing or doing one of the things you suggest i can't really see how any of them would make much of a difference, regardless if they end up being used or not, *shrug*
True that it wouldnt make a difference if no one used it, but id rather they not spend anytime at all on something that wont improve the game.
Ive not personally had too many problems using dungeon finder in wow that it became a burden to use. you get the occasional clown but i feel pantheons playerbase will be a cut above the rest.
I completely disagree.
The WoW style dungeons finder and all the MMOs that have copied it since have ruined the idea behind the social contract, the way groups naturally form at certain locations, the way dungeons are seen in terms of the world and an adventure that can be shared by multiple groups together at the same time.
The dungeon finder has turned them into daily tasks, like theme park rides you queue for, get on with a bunch of strangers, complete, leave and never see anyone again.
I would much rather prefer a simplistic LFG tool that brings players together on their own server only, does not automatically assign roles or hand-hold the group into ensuring certain roles are taken, doesn't include any kind of cross-server grouping or fast travel or highlight a map location and doesn't turn the dungeon into the idea of something you speedrun.
There especially shouldn't be a drop down list of all the dungeons that exist across the world, this should be completely unknown unless you go find them or someone tells you of them.
A dungeon crawl should be like the mines of Moria.
It isn't a given than an LFG tool won't be used. *If* the tool isn't good, then yes, no one will 'get into' it and, subsequently, no one will use it at all, because something like an LFG tool can only work well if everyone uses it.
I agree that if it isn't done right, they may as well not do it at all, but the answer is to make it good from the start, not to abandon the idea and go for a game-destroying dungeon finder concept. The dungeon finder in WoW WotLK was a big part of what finally destroyed WoW. It turned dungeon groups - pretty much the only casual social challenging experience in WoW - into non-social (in fact, anti-social and often toxic) gamified speed-run nightmare.
To emphasise: This is something VR *must* get right on day one or it will have a very hard time getting adopted. They must make a tool that works well, is easy to use and they must make it known to players. They can't add it later and hope it gets picked up. Well, not unless they have a massive publicity event and somehow 'pay' players to start using it hehe.
It was infuriating in Everquest that players felt they had to wander zone-to-zone spam /shouting "WAR21 LFG Najena 4 loot" or something similar rather than use the /lfg tool, but the /lfg tool was not great and once it was established that it wasn't really used, it never would get used.
This is also a good example of it not being a great idea to just dump players into a world without any info, even in a sand-box-style RPG. The success of some features require the players to know about them. It's not adding mystery and exploration to keep players in-the-dark about such things. An auction house is a similar feature. If no one much uses it, then it is useless and won't get used... if you see what I mean...
I should add that I think any LFG tool (and auction tool) should only put players in contact. It should not automate any interaction. No auto-grouping. No teleporting to each other. No 'emailing' items (for the auction). The tools should have easy to use and sophisticated sorting, filtering, grouping, searching, etc functions and then help players *contact* others that are interested (in either the group or the sale), the rest is up to the players' social interactions.
I couldn't disagree with more the OP. Even a very simplistic LFG tool is vital for a game like Pantheon aimed at promoting groups and social interaction. I hope VR goes even further and develops a tool that Brad had talked about many years ago which I like to think of as a friend finder.
Every game I've played that automatically grouped random people, I had no social interaction with that group during or after the dungeon run. It created the exact opposite effect VR is striving for.
A good LFG tool is one of the things I'm looking forward to seeing in Pantheon.
I don't believe LFG tools are what kill social interactions in games. The setup of the system is what does that. I try to say hello and chat in most dungeon groups I join (normally to hear crickets in return), despite feeling like developing a connection with people in them is pointless because I either won't or can't group with them again in the future. Cross-server group finding and fast leveling are the biggest culprits of the silent dungeon runs we commonly see today.
I think the following are needed for a successful grouping tool that doesn't kill socialization:
1. Automated grouping. At the end of the day, an LFG tool is about convenience. I don't want to feel I have to stand in the middle of a city or zone spamming LFG to find a group instead of productively working on other things like farming, crafting, grinding, etc. Needing to remember to refresh and check an LFG tool is just as tedious as having to shout LFG every few minutes. Maybe to address specific needs/goals, as a person is matched to a group, both parties get a notification they can accept or decline with a short blurb.
Ex. the group leader has "exploring x zone" or "hunting bosses for loot" while the rogue looking for group has "CC focused rogue" or "flexible role, looking for loot".
2. No teleportation. Should be self explanatory, but teleportation to the location and back out isn't the experience most of us are looking for. Getting there together and potentially remaining in a group to explore the next zone lead to the type of socializing a group-based game needs. The need to communicate to overcome dungeons along with a slower leveling pace willl contribute to seeing people more than once, and make me want to friend and remember the people I'm playing with.
3. (Optional) Distance based grouping. If zones are massive and take a while to traverse, I would rather not get grouped with someone who is a 35 minute run away. Maybe keep the search to within 1-3 zones of the dungeon or group leader. Maybe we can select how far we'd want the search to be visible. I don't think it's mandatory, but would help alleviate one of the issues I had with vanilla WoW groupings falling apart before the dungeon even starts.
Lastly, I don't feel qualified in address the filtering options so I'd leave that to you all to discuss. The group leader's ability to filter for levels or specific classes vs group role wouldn't bother me as much.
Edit: As for automated grouping. Maybe have a box you can check off that says you want to be auto-grouped or you can manually search groups otherwise.
Hello,
please never implement a dungeon finder-like tool into this game! I have seen what happened when it was introduced in WoW WotLK. Player interaction will die completely, people will leave the party for tiny reasons, you will have the feeling that you play with bots etc.
Cheers
Let there be an LFG tool, but the player has to have let Player also be aware of their personal responsibility in using the LFG tool.
What is this responsibility? I think it is this: 1. You are putting yourself "out there", the populous has no responsibility to engage you so, rather than sulk in having nothing to do for hours, you know what you are going to do while you are "out there". 2 If proactive, you select the first person(s) you see and assemble- you don't care about quarternity.Why? because you know what you can do, solo, you know what is just a tad too hard and if you just had one more could survive, any class one more you would conquer and you are willing to experiment to see what can be done if you have a full group. If others dont want to hang around because there are not the right classes? thats fine, good bye. what im saying is, you know what you can do with 2, and maybe 3 on up to 5 without ideal classes, maybe someone needs ot get something done, maybe just grind in the meantime. try to help each others goals. But then you put your 4 or 5 up LFM you'd be suprised who flocks to join. in no time you end up with a choice group, quarternity and all. And there are 3 groups, members of your original gropup having created new ones and you are hanging out in the same dungeon or area.
its a good idea to have plans. Otherwise throw it up in the background while you go about your business and if something catches your eye, then go, but dont have expectations, unless you make them. If you make expectations, be ready to lead those expectations with non-standard groups with your plans and convince them or be open to their ideas, its worth a try.
I find it confusing that the main point against this is, noone used it in WoW classic. The WoW classic "lfg tool" was by far and away the worst designed iteration of the feature you could imagine. Of course noone used it.
Everquests LFG tool is actually a very useful middle ground, yes some people will still spam in zone, however most people will list themselves or their group and move along.
Not even sure what else you could ask for, as a group youre able to search by class and level, as well as see what zones someone is interested in. As a single player you can list a short description of pertinent class info AAs epics etc or specify where you are LFG for.
IMO this is the perfect LFG tool since you are still required to send tells, ask for info, invites etc, and nothing is automated.
I think it is important to note that Pantheon is a group centric game. IE there are plans to keep groups dropping gear as good as raid gear, and give experience better than soloing.
Anything that helps people to group will thus be more popular in a game like Pantheon then in a game like WoW.
I think that the LFG tool is worth a try, and if nothing else the code for it might be usable for qol auction house, pvp, or guild systems.
Yeah, I wouldn't want a tool that auto formats a group. Social issues aside, if I am putting together a group I want to have control over the classes and people I am taking. Could you imagine this system paring you with a tank, only to find that player is playing said class as a damage dealer? Or could you imagine being paired with two true tanks and them constantly swapping aggro back and forth? Or could you imagine two clerics being placed in a party?
All of these situations may be viable and preferred for certain content, encounters, or group strategy. However, having the choice made for your group by a system might not be the best experience.
I would rather have a LFG system where players can list their names, and the group leader(s) can contact them based on the group's needs.
Jothany said:I think it's the best suggestion I've ever heard, if your goal is to minimize the development of social connections and friendships between players.
Been playing MMOs for 23 years and never have i formed a bond with someone while forming a group.
I already went over this.
LF tank
Im tank
This isnt a conversation.
I will have to watch you all closely during our time in pantheon because ive been playing mmos for 23 years, but apparently people are having lengthy conversations during the forming of groups and not during the dungeon, which would also happen with auto groups.
I very doubtful this is true, i think you guys saw the word WOW and freaked out.
As a person that played WoW heavily during WOTLK, and who saw how dungeon finders operated, I'm with most others here when I say Please, for the Love of GOD no.
Click. Wait. Accept. Run dungeon with near-zero communication. Loot. Exit. Repeat.
The number of reasons the WoW dungeon finder broke MMO's is long. Off the top of my head....
- Instant port to the dungeon. (travel becomes meaningless)
- Zero need for reputation. (you can be a badass or a loser, and your group is stuck with you regardless unless they want to boot you and start working on finding replacements)
- Zero need for communication. (impersonal and socially meaningless)
- Zero need for community involvement outside that passing occasion. (no encouragement of developing a network of allies)
- System-defined measurement of player capability based on level and gear in order to group people "appropriately", with no consideration for player skill. (trash, all the way around)
Give people tools to advertise that they want a group or have group availability. Let players do something completely insane, like, talk, plan, compromise. I know, it's nuts. But don't just build systems to circumvent actual human interaction. .
Grimseethe said:True that it wouldnt make a difference if no one used it, but id rather they not spend anytime at all on something that wont improve the game.
Ive not personally had too many problems using dungeon finder in wow that it became a burden to use. you get the occasional clown but i feel pantheons playerbase will be a cut above the rest.
It'd be a waste, sure, but if its really just a quite simple notice board type thing then hopefully it wouldn't be too much lost development time, at least.
And yea, I mean I don't necessarily think its the automatic formation of the group that makes dungeon finder asocial/kinda useless for harder content (both of which was my own impression that it is) but rather the teleporting the whole group into it, all quests for the dungeon at the entrance and then the linearity and speed of WotLK dungeons. If all it did was form a group with a preselected number of people per role then I think it could be alright.
I think compared to the previously proposed notice system it is a little less flexible, you'd probably have a list of dungeons/tasks/whatever that you'd queue for then but the more manual system would allow you to LFM for wool farming or whatever else you could think of.
On the other hand I think compared to a traditional system of spamming chat with "LFM X or Y", a notice board kinda thing is a little limited. Say im just doing whatever in a zone and someone spams chat with an LFM message I might join even if I didn't plan to but with a grouping tool there's no "pop-up" so to speak, I have to manually and with intention open the tab and see what groups are going. But I suppose this also goes for an automated system.
Grimseethe said: Been playing MMOs for 23 years and never have i formed a bond with someone while forming a group.
Elsewhere on these forums, you posted this not long ago:
I have no friends, never have, never will, least of all friends who play MMOS.
So I quite respectfully suggest that your past experience of which game mechanics foster social interaction and bonding is quite likely to have been influenced more by your personal approach to making friends, rather than the details of the mechanic.
Beyond that, Pantheon's LFG tool hasn't been created yet AND Pantheon is a very different game with different goals than WoW, so claiming that the LFG tool (that you haven't seen or used) won't work in Panth just because one didn't work in WoW is a completely fallacious argument.
Feyshtey said:As a person that played WoW heavily during WOTLK, and who saw how dungeon finders operated, I'm with most others here when I say Please, for the Love of GOD no.
Click. Wait. Accept. Run dungeon with near-zero communication. Loot. Exit. Repeat.
The number of reasons the WoW dungeon finder broke MMO's is long. Off the top of my head....
- Instant port to the dungeon. (travel becomes meaningless)
- Zero need for reputation. (you can be a badass or a loser, and your group is stuck with you regardless unless they want to boot you and start working on finding replacements)
- Zero need for communication. (impersonal and socially meaningless)
- Zero need for community involvement outside that passing occasion. (no encouragement of developing a network of allies)
- System-defined measurement of player capability based on level and gear in order to group people "appropriately", with no consideration for player skill. (trash, all the way around)
Give people tools to advertise that they want a group or have group availability. Let players do something completely insane, like, talk, plan, compromise. I know, it's nuts. But don't just build systems to circumvent actual human interaction. .
The fundamental flaw in your entire post is that youre comparing how a auto dungeon finder impacted a largely solo game. WoW and for that matter EQ have vast differences that make your entire point meaningless.
In WoW you entered the dungeon and were done in 30 mins, thats barely time to start a conversation while still playing the game. In EQ (and to what i would also imagine pantheon) you will likely be grouped with the players you meet for at least double that time.
Reputation doesnt mean anything in EQ anymore, 15 years ago the majority of players were "morally good people" with a few exceptions per server. Nowadays every MMO that you play you will find entire guilds of players who dont really care about reputation, its much harder to blacklist an entire guild, especially when those guilds tend to be in the top 1-2 on the servers usually. Reputation is not going to mean what most people on these forums want it to mean in Pantheon.
Travel was already meaningless in WoW with epic speed flying mounts and meeting stone summons.
Im by no means condoning a dungeon finder in Pantheon, but to say it wont work because it didnt work in WoW is just a flawed arguement.