Nothing is too rare.
I loved how in EQ you started off as a peasant in rags basically. You had nothing and had to earn everything through blood and sweat.
Any gear was rare and a treat when it dropped. Some tattered leather dropped? HELL YEAH! Now I have some leg armor!!!
Every time even the most mundane crappy item dropped it was at least a mildly exciting moment.
But when a truly "rare" item dropped, an item with stats, it was a cause for celebration. Even something with a measly +2 to something.
I am sick of these gear vending machine games like WoW that spew gear at you. Every time an expansion is released ALL of the extremely powerful gear you acquired is replaced by the shitty random drops from random mobs. It's cheap. Gearing feels hollow and less. Gear dropping is not exciting in the least. Even raid gear is less. Raids are so easy and the gear isn't even that rare.
I want truly RARE drops. Things that might take you weeks or months of camping to get. Obviously not EVERY item should be that rare, but stuff with stats that are significant should require a fair amount of time to acquire.
To answer the question directly, I feel that a .01% chance is too rare. And from what others have said already, I think that is the general consensus. As someone who has done the end game raiding and has seen items never make it into my characters hands. I do feel like the majority of players shouldn't miss out on items of value to their characters simply because they don't have the same availability of time to invest in what they enjoy like Pantheon. I'm not saying everyone should have access to every item. But I feel like quests are a great way to include a much larger percentage of people to an item they otherwise would not have an opportunity to acquire if it was solely locked behind a drop. A quest Can be worked on diligently in small bites if that's all someone can afford for a busy month with a family and kids or whatever their life situation is. And some updates can be super difficult to get but whats better than asking for help from a community for that hard to get update and actually getting it. In my book, nothing! That's the whole point for me at least. So whatever the developers decide to do I hope they consider the use of quests more when deciding how to handle some of the really awesome loot they want to put into the world of Pantheon. Maybe I'm way off though?
kellindil said:I want truly RARE drops. Things that might take you weeks or months of camping to get. Obviously not EVERY item should be that rare, but stuff with stats that are significant should require a fair amount of time to acquire.
So you say 'weeks or months' but by which measurement? The person who can only play a few hours here and there or the person who can put in 40+ hours every week, week after week? I ask because those are two quite different in terms of actual in-game hours. One mistake people, you included, always fail to realize that calendar-time (that being weeks and months) is in no way connected to in-game time.
Had you said you wanted items that would take 100 in-game hours to obtain with those 100 hours accumulated in whatever chunks you could manage then you have an actual apples to apples comparison. Everyone, the casual and the hardcord would spend (and expend) the same amount of in-game time and effort to obtain the item. Yes, the casual person might need 8 weeks to reach 100 in-game hours while the player with more freetime could reach 100 in-game hours in 3 weeks but at least in terms of in-game time they both need 100 hours.
Of course, 100 hours would only be an average if there are still randoms on if the named spawns or not, or if it drops said item every time or not. 100 hours might be an average which then complete negates your desire for 'truly rare' items because someone could still get lucky and get it immediately.
There were extremes in EQ though based on a combination of the rarity of a specific NPC that then had a low chance to drop an item and then your static spawn raid encounter that had a much higher chance, but required a raid force to take down, and then you were competing with X number of others for the same item. Both of those mechanics created a false sense of exclusivity and importance. I believe the path PRotF is going down is having less exclusivity, but more unique items, with the iconic and class-important items being obtainable if the players put in the time. To use EQ as an example, i.e. there wont be 100% of the melee vying for the FBSS that had a 1.5% chance to drop off of an NPC with a 10% chance to spawn every 24 minutes after killing the PH simply for 21% haste. Instead, the Frenzied Ghoul would spawn in a random location and the FBSS could have a different stat like EB or something. It still makes the item valuable, but removes the desire to monopolize the item in hopes of "intentionally" blocking or paygating content from others on a solo/group level. This should reduce the desire of a lvl 50 from taking "all" of the good loot from say level 30 players simply because they know exactly where the spawn points/timers are and can do more damage (while having minimal risk to themselves -thus removing risk vs reward and leaving only greed). I think this will make all items even more special because you can get an upgrade at any point... not just at a specific camp that you have to sit at for day/weeks because you want that one specific trait (21% haste). This will also allow players to adventure/explore more areas and feel less like "I need to level in one specific area from 28-34 if I want a chance at having haste before lvl 50". This will also create a very lively trade market when a caster finds a haste item and is willing to trade it for a mana regen item that a melee found (perhaps even the same item with just different effects /shrug)... Raid content sounds like another beast that will be competitive and sounds fun.
Edit: I think that even 1% is too rare (you would never see .01%). RNG doesn't mean that if something is 1% that if you haven't seen it in 99 kills, you're garaunteed to see it at kill 100. The "R" in RNG is for Random, and 1% means that every kill is the same as the first and would have a 1 out of 100 chance... if it were .01% (on an already "rare" NPC), you would never see it... maybe ever on some servers. You may see .01% on raid NPCs that are static with large loot tables (having 100% chance to drop loot, but each item having its own low chance). With that said, having the exact same two items in a system that has random stats is closer to having a .01% chance of happening. But I'd be ok with 25% chance of a "rare" NPC dropping loot (with random stats); even seeing the rare NPC should be exciting... not "oh man, this guy that hits abnormally hard and fast is here again, with a 99.99% chance to have a bonechip for loot, do we want to risk it?" And on the flip side of that same coin, there may be a group there exclusively to track down that NPC waiting for someone to shout out "XYZ at 123 Camp" and off they go for a 1/4 chance for an item that may or may not be good for a group member, or that lvl 50 in the area helping out and can get a random item as a reward for themselves or to give to someone in the area... or just kill the NPC for an achievment /shrug.
There are other ways to generate rarity:
1). Tie it in to some percentage of the total number of characters that have reached /exceeded the intended level of the item. So if Sword of Super Stabbing is level 50 and it is intended for 10% of the population, every time there are 10 new characters who reach 50, 1 more Sword of Super Stabbing will be added to the drop pool. It won't be a 100% chance to drop next spawn (to prevent exploitation), but it will be much higher than the tiny chance when rarity is controlled by drop rate alone.
2). Seasonal rarity. Items could have a larger drop rate if they only dropped for limited times. This could be seasonal or even a single limited time. Other, not quite as good items could drop the rest of the time. Imagine a set of celestial gear themed after constellations. Each month a different set of gear is what drops. This would be like how birthstoneswork, so if you want the purple version with unique bonus X, you need to get the drop in February.
Counterfleche said:There are other ways to generate rarity:
1). Tie it in to some percentage of the total number of characters that have reached /exceeded the intended level of the item. So if Sword of Super Stabbing is level 50 and it is intended for 10% of the population, every time there are 10 new characters who reach 50, 1 more Sword of Super Stabbing will be added to the drop pool. It won't be a 100% chance to drop next spawn (to prevent exploitation), but it will be much higher than the tiny chance when rarity is controlled by drop rate alone.
I would disagree with this approach completely because everyone who wants and item and puts in an 'appropriate amount of time and effort'* should be able to obtain that item. With your option above, because you limited it to just 10%, there would necessarily be people who could not obtain that item through on fault of their own other than not getting to 50 before everyone else, being locked out of ever obtaining that item because of how long it took them to get to 50. Would you, personally, play a game where you were told, up front, that there exists an entire list of items for your class that you will never get regardless of how my time and effort you invest in obitaining them solely because the 10% limit was reached 3 years ago? I highly doubt it.
Counterfleche said:2). Seasonal rarity. Items could have a larger drop rate if they only dropped for limited times. This could be seasonal or even a single limited time. Other, not quite as good items could drop the rest of the time. Imagine a set of celestial gear themed after constellations. Each month a different set of gear is what drops. This would be like how birthstoneswork, so if you want the purple version with unique bonus X, you need to get the drop in February.
Having items that only drop seasonally (or in each month as you suggested with the star signs) is fine so long as every time those conditions are met those items can drop. It does not exclude someone who enters the game years after release who has learned of those items and specifically wants to obtain them.
Yes, there can be unique items. I'm not suggesting for a second that truly unique items should not exist. EVE Online is a good example where unique items could be obtained from winning the alliance tournaments. But we're talking about items that drop off NPCs which continue to spawn in the game. If there were a GM event in Pantheon where a unique item dropped? Fine. But if a FBSS type item drops of some NPCs in the game, it should always be within the realm of possibility that everyone who wants it can obtain it.
*It is this concept of an appropriate amount of time and effort which nobody has yet to define. What is an appropriate amount for you could be trivial for another or could be near insurmountable for yet another person. So long as named has some random chance to spawn and items in its loot table have random chances to drop, there will never be an equitable and appropriate amount of time and effort from anyone. One person can get the drop the first time they kill the NPC and someone else might never ever get it.
Going by the thread looks like my opinion is against the majority but I much prefer the idea of RNG drops rather than knowing that if I kill 100 or 1000 mobs or whatever I will definitely get what I am after. For me that just doesn't provide the same endorphin hit as seeing it looted from a mob.
Addressing the original question it is completely mob specific. Looking at the answers it appears most people are considering raid drops or rare spawns. I certainly think 0.01% is too low in that scenario. But if the drop was say 0.01% from random mobs in the area in question then I don't think that is a ridiculous drop rate at all for something super rare. Thousands of NPCs are killed every hour.
Vandraad said:I would disagree with this approach completely because everyone who wants and item and puts in an 'appropriate amount of time and effort'* should be able to obtain that item. With your option above, because you limited it to just 10%, there would necessarily be people who could not obtain that item through on fault of their own other than not getting to 50 before everyone else, being locked out of ever obtaining that item because of how long it took them to get to 50. Would you, personally, play a game where you were told, up front, that there exists an entire list of items for your class that you will never get regardless of how my time and effort you invest in obitaining them solely because the 10% limit was reached 3 years ago? I highly doubt it.
No one is entitled to anything. Hard work can lead to the potential of high rewards but it is not a measure of them. Time & effort is not a guarantee of anything. No matter how many hours I spend singing in the shower I'm not landing any records deals, and no matter how many years I study quantum physics I'm not going down in history as a great mind who changed the world.
Rarity of an item should be hard capped with limits based on it’s intended rarity. We should accept as players that we may not get something that’s extremely rare.
HemlockReaper said:No one is entitled to anything. Hard work can lead to the potential of high rewards but it is not a measure of them. Time & effort is not a guarantee of anything. No matter how many hours I spend singing in the shower I'm not landing any records deals, and no matter how many years I study quantum physics I'm not going down in history as a great mind who changed the world.
Rarity of an item should be hard capped with limits based on it’s intended rarity. We should accept as players that we may not get something that’s extremely rare.
The difference is this is a game, not real life. Games are entertainment. But to your first example, singing in the shower isn't actual training. If, instead, you went to a voice coach and studied under that person for years you would improve your singing to the point where there exists the possibility of being a professional singer. And who's to say that if you truly put in the effort to study quantum physics that you would not come to profound realization about quanity physics that could change the field? No person in physics was born knowing everything about physics. They put in the time and effort to learn it.
I highly doubt that you would play a game if you were shown a list of items in the game, for every class you might want to play, that you would never ever get because everyone else got to it first.
EDIT: Lets not lose sight of the fact that item acquisition is a sizeable driving factor for people continuing to play a game for years and years. Seeing someone of the same class as yours wielding a weapon or wearing a piece of armor and you go "what is that...I want it!" so you go out and try to get it for yourself and that keeps you in the game longer.
I answered on twitter but I assumed the post was about weapons. Whoops.
Having a rare item whose appearance is special but whose function is common have a low chance of dropping is a great way to keep content engaging far past the time when that content becomes trivialized and offers gear rewards from the prior expansion. I see no reason why an item whose purpose is cosmetic (that is, they either serve no purpose in combat / exploration or the new item serves the same purpose as existing gear but looks better) shouldn't have a ridiculously low drop rate.
I think that the line where items are too rare is relative to what kind of player you are, in terms of the Bartle Test. There's not going to be one objective answer because you're looking at balancing the desires of 4 groups without the toned down aspects feeling punitive.
I think drop rate should vary with convinience of the kill. Captain of the Guard in Thronefast? You bet she has her grandfather's blade. Horror of the Deep, fathoms below Terminus's dry surface? You know its ichor is needed for the ink your newest spell needs to be scribed in, and you know it has it. It's a part of their anatomy. Lieutenant Elf out patrolling? Well... he *might* have that Skar blade he misappropriated from supply, but more likely he has a normal short sword. But that's gear, not things whose purpose are duplicated by more easily available items.
I think, also, though, that the game would be stale if all we had were drop rates that varied according to effort. That system would be explicitly punishing to casual players. There needs to be a mix-up of types of drop, just to make the world feel meaningful to a wider range of player. By that I mean high chance, easily available drops with a couple of days of spawn (hadden's earring type stuff) as well as low chance end boss mount loot. I feel like if a player could spend their entire Pantheon adventuring career drooling over the one piece of loot that doesn't drop, and that would be okay, because in their efforts to reach that one piece of (edit: cosmetic) loot from that one enemy in that one place they would have been many other places, gotten other pieces of rare loot, and ultimately would have had many nights of adventure to balance out those two or three nights you're deep in a cavern ostensibly fighting for loot for your groupmates.
So in this you have the rare item from the hard to reach mob AND the rare item from the easy to reach mob, and you can grind one for the sake of completion while appreciating that awesome rare mount you heard dropped from the southern bit of Wild's End, but know no more about it.
As well, we need to remember that there are other ways of getting items than drops. Crafting will be important, as will questing, and both processes can be infused with enough player effort that actually having the item completed will be a rare enough accomplishment by itself that any rare seeking player would drool over the rarest ship, or a special version of the druid's bridge whose vines have pink flowers, or any special non-statted equippable.
Ultimately, I think that each player character in Pantheon will be less of a meter from scuff to awesome and more of an ever developing fingerprint, all growing outward to a point but each developing according to their choices, skill, and luck and resulting in unique characters natively prepared for a set of circumstances determined by their (for lack of a better term) life choices. Whether the player chooses to lean upon those established strengths and re-conquer old experiences for a chance at the uber rare drop or whether they choose to strike out, empowered by their past, and seek new challenges is a decision for the player to make that night when they log on, not one for the developers to micromanage because a segment of the player population are upset that a concentrated, unreasonable effort is required to experience *everything* in the world. I don't want to speak for the team, but I think it is safe to say that they are designing this as an expandable world, and not just a game with a start and an end and some side quests along the way. In a world you can appreciate things existing without having or knowing or doing everything yourself because there are only so many hours in a day and expecting 100% completion of a world be easy enough to attain that it might as well be an achievement isn't, I don't think, a reasonable expectation.
TL;DR: I suppose what I am saying is I don't care how rare things are, as long as my progress is not OVERLY negatively affected by my lack of shinier gear I'll be happy. I only have a problem when gearing my character looks like a Best-In-Slot shopping list with only one "most viable" option for each slot. In the end it's about the adventure and the people you meet along the way.
Vandraad said:HemlockReaper said:No one is entitled to anything. Hard work can lead to the potential of high rewards but it is not a measure of them. Time & effort is not a guarantee of anything. No matter how many hours I spend singing in the shower I'm not landing any records deals, and no matter how many years I study quantum physics I'm not going down in history as a great mind who changed the world.
Rarity of an item should be hard capped with limits based on it’s intended rarity. We should accept as players that we may not get something that’s extremely rare.
The difference is this is a game, not real life. Games are entertainment. But to your first example, singing in the shower isn't actual training. If, instead, you went to a voice coach and studied under that person for years you would improve your singing to the point where there exists the possibility of being a professional singer. And who's to say that if you truly put in the effort to study quantum physics that you would not come to profound realization about quanity physics that could change the field? No person in physics was born knowing everything about physics. They put in the time and effort to learn it.
I highly doubt that you would play a game if you were shown a list of items in the game, for every class you might want to play, that you would never ever get because everyone else got to it first.
EDIT: Lets not lose sight of the fact that item acquisition is a sizeable driving factor for people continuing to play a game for years and years. Seeing someone of the same class as yours wielding a weapon or wearing a piece of armor and you go "what is that...I want it!" so you go out and try to get it for yourself and that keeps you in the game longer.
I agree that it would be disheartening to see something someone else has obtained and know that I likely wont be able to get it, but when you make it so everyone can get anything it devalues everything. Perhaps just soft cap the numbers instead, making it unlikely but possible to obtain.
Additionally, no item should be so powerful that’s is a must have item. There should always be comparable crafted items, other loot able items no so rare, but comparable in quality.
My idea would be to keep a weapon or armor rear would be to ONLY have a "special attribute" that only that item have and any new weapons in the near expansion don't have. Say that weapon have the ability to copy what you cast?
You cast ice and the weapon will cast ice instantly? There won't be any delay input on your next cast as it is instant by the weapon's special ability, so you can keep smashing buttons away. Likewise also for melee the weapon hit twice or thrice?
All new weapons from new expansion or armor don't have that "special attribute" making the item very sought after, even after 5+ years. Yes the item might have attack 100 or magic+150 and new items are 200+ single attack or cast but that rare item is still stronger because of the attribute. So the***0.01%*** is very favorable if anyone can get it!
But after some plus years then go ahead and make second handed copies of said rare item but at a slight weaker stats so the original will still be sought after ((OR)) just make another weapon stronger but a bit easier to get.
I don't mind camping said item or whatever ways VR have us do to get it even if I ((NEVER)) get it I'm happy to see someone else running around with it and would love to group up with them to see them in Action!!
Edit: though this item sounds OP you don't need it to beat the game. Just fun to have.
Vandraad said:kellindil said:I want truly RARE drops. Things that might take you weeks or months of camping to get. Obviously not EVERY item should be that rare, but stuff with stats that are significant should require a fair amount of time to acquire.
So you say 'weeks or months' but by which measurement? The person who can only play a few hours here and there or the person who can put in 40+ hours every week, week after week? I ask because those are two quite different in terms of actual in-game hours. One mistake people, you included, always fail to realize that calendar-time (that being weeks and months) is in no way connected to in-game time.
Had you said you wanted items that would take 100 in-game hours to obtain with those 100 hours accumulated in whatever chunks you could manage then you have an actual apples to apples comparison. Everyone, the casual and the hardcord would spend (and expend) the same amount of in-game time and effort to obtain the item. Yes, the casual person might need 8 weeks to reach 100 in-game hours while the player with more freetime could reach 100 in-game hours in 3 weeks but at least in terms of in-game time they both need 100 hours.
Of course, 100 hours would only be an average if there are still randoms on if the named spawns or not, or if it drops said item every time or not. 100 hours might be an average which then complete negates your desire for 'truly rare' items because someone could still get lucky and get it immediately.
Actually I do take into account player time constraints and real world vs in game time. That's why I gave a range.
Weeks for people who poop-sock their games and months for those who can only play in short sessions.
Obviously this wouldn't be for EVERY item, just really rare items. But even the not quite so rare items should take a good long amount of time to acquire, not accounting for dumb luck, within reason for their rarity/quality.
I do think there needs to be a middle ground between hardcores and casuals, VR has talked a lot about item syncs and that could be a good incentive for hardcore players (as well as the undevelpted progeny system). If VR makes items "more common" then I have to image the average player (playing 2-4 hrs, 3ish days a week) would come away itemized for the next dungeon and with a sense of accomplishment.
That allows hardcores, who may play 6+ hrs, 5+ days a week to really see a difference in item drops and their ROI from item syncs (be it crafting syncs, or other)
Is a 0.01% drop too rare?
Short answer is NO. As long as it is not a class required item or extremely overpowered I welcome a diverse item pool.
WolfySins said:
This is also how I feel about pretty much all contested content. The least fun thing in original EQ was the 2-year queue for epic drops. 3-day (or worse 1-week) spawns. If a particular mob is required for a class-defining skill, then I hate having my success depend upon a bunch of other people having to wait.
Having to wait an hour? No biggie. Having to wait a week for the next person? Having a queue that's months or years long? Definitely not fun.
The biggest downside of mob specific rare item drops is the mindless camping. I remember camping for the FBSS. I would go to Lower Guk to get on the FBSS camp group list, if a high level wasn’t solo camping/farming it and do other things while I waited for a message that a spot in the group was opening up. Then I would head to the group and be put on the order list for who gets the FBSS drop from 1 to 6; me being the newest member to the group and getting last/6. Rinse and repeat until I got the drop.
Why did I do this insanity? Because I found it hard getting into better groups and camps without having the FBSS. I would like to avoid this in Pantheon, if possible.
Darch said:
There were extremes in EQ though based on a combination of the rarity of a specific NPC that then had a low chance to drop an item and then your static spawn raid encounter that had a much higher chance, but required a raid force to take down, and then you were competing with X number of others for the same item. Both of those mechanics created a false sense of exclusivity and importance. I believe the path PRotF is going down is having less exclusivity, but more unique items, with the iconic and class-important items being obtainable if the players put in the time. To use EQ as an example, i.e. there wont be 100% of the melee vying for the FBSS that had a 1.5% chance to drop off of an NPC with a 10% chance to spawn every 24 minutes after killing the PH simply for 21% haste. Instead, the Frenzied Ghoul would spawn in a random location and the FBSS could have a different stat like EB or something. It still makes the item valuable, but removes the desire to monopolize the item in hopes of "intentionally" blocking or paygating content from others on a solo/group level. This should reduce the desire of a lvl 50 from taking "all" of the good loot from say level 30 players simply because they know exactly where the spawn points/timers are and can do more damage (while having minimal risk to themselves -thus removing risk vs reward and leaving only greed). I think this will make all items even more special because you can get an upgrade at any point... not just at a specific camp that you have to sit at for day/weeks because you want that one specific trait (21% haste). This will also allow players to adventure/explore more areas and feel less like "I need to level in one specific area from 28-34 if I want a chance at having haste before lvl 50". This will also create a very lively trade market when a caster finds a haste item and is willing to trade it for a mana regen item that a melee found (perhaps even the same item with just different effects /shrug)... Raid content sounds like another beast that will be competitive and sounds fun.
I hope Pantheon can find a way to prevent intentional blocking of content/items. I think a good solution is to tie rare items to a mob rarity rating rather than a specific mob. For simplicity, let’s say Pantheon mobs have a rarity rating from 1 to 10. Let’s say there is a Sword of Super Awesomeness that is given a rarity rating of 8. So now I’m not required to go to Amberfaet to camp the Sword of Super Awesomeness from a specific mob there. I can adventure all over Terminus and I have a chance of getting the Sword of Super Awesomeness off any rarity rating 8 mob. You can add zone group ratings so that some items can only drop in some zones. There are many customizations and refinements you can make.
I just don’t want to wait for The Farmer who has been camping the frenzied ghoul for the last month to move on to something else so I can have a shot at my FBSS.
I like rare drops alot. It gives games a certain type of mystery (same with spawn chances of rares).To me you could even make a 0.00001 % drop chance just dont make that item too overpowered or a must have then. Since if i would know the drop chance i for sure wouldn want to grind for it.
To me its boring if everything has an almost 100% drop chance and everyone has every item because of this.
But in eq there have been theories of triggers for certain items ...,like kill that first then this and so on ...to get whatever to spawn. I dont think it actually was true today... but it was interesting, wish it became true ... the problem is once somone knows the mechanics of a drop ..you would have to let it keep changing in a non predictable way.
Fulton said:
@NegativeNRG,
I wouldn't want rare items available from just anywhere...
Why not? The mob difficulty and rarity rating should be the major factor for the type of rare item that can drop from it. Also remember that there can be many levels of rare. Fulton said:
@NegativeNRG,
...I am not opposed to items being zone or regional, so there is a chance it can drop from a named anywhere in specified area, or from a range of mobs within a region.
This just does a great job of spreading out the player base and not having "premium areas" being controlled by top guilds.
Ultimately there are going to be two major sides to the rarity debate. If you are a Poop Socker, you want rare items to be as difficult as possible to get as that favors your play style. If you are a Casual, you want the chance at getting rare items. I can write pages and pages about this, but this is the core.
NegativeNRG said:
Fulton said:
@NegativeNRG,
I wouldn't want rare items available from just anywhere...
Mainly because part of the draw to an area is the loot it contains, if you can get anything from anywhere then players will gravitate to the "optimal" locations (closeness to towns, safe areas, mob densitiy, mob selection) and just kill until they get what they want.
And items need to fit into lore, I don't think the Ice Staff of Greatness should be dropping off an Imperial Fire Imp in The Volcano of Doom.
That is not to say that there can't be items that fit into the model you descibed, but I would prefer that loot location distribution be highly item dependent and not just an all or nothing scenario.
I like the idea of specific items having a higher drop off the low spawn rate 'named mob' but say a much lower - call it 0.01% chance sure - off regular mobs in that same vicinity. I have not played a game with 'camps' before but to me it does sound a horrible mechanic if wanting specific things from a single mob.
One in 10,000 the tail is too long. There would be people who would not attain the item after killing 20 or 30 thousand mobs. If you set out to do this, and you were at 30,000 mobs and still no item, this is when you tear your hair out, throw the pc out the window, and run screaming naked from the building.
I like rare. I like having "zonewide" rares that give an added bonus to killing mobs in the zone. One more reason to experience there. Maybe an illusion or something. Or even a stat item. But where you run into problems is if the stats are SO HIGH compared to other ways of attaining gear and then you have shadowknights pulling the whole zone etc etc. (jk for sk's).
With numbers whenever you get get a chain like you have a 1 in 20 chance of spawning the named then a 1 in 3 chance of the named having no loot then of the nameds with loots a 1 in 20 chance of the named having your item on it, you get situations where I am unlucky and it becomes ridiculous after a while if I have been camping the item I feel like I have been used and I have just burned up hours and hours that I will never get back. And I don't like that feeling in a game.
EQ2 (what a mess) has crazy rare items that are virtual requirements for progressing beyond just dicking around and it drives people to the marketplace to spend irl money (which is the goal, I guess) but then it drives everyone else away. You don't want that model.
NegativeNRG said:Is a 0.01% drop too rare?
Short answer is NO. As long as it is not a class required item or extremely overpowered I welcome a diverse item pool.
WolfySins said:This is also how I feel about pretty much all contested content. The least fun thing in original EQ was the 2-year queue for epic drops. 3-day (or worse 1-week) spawns. If a particular mob is required for a class-defining skill, then I hate having my success depend upon a bunch of other people having to wait.
Having to wait an hour? No biggie. Having to wait a week for the next person? Having a queue that's months or years long? Definitely not fun.
The biggest downside of mob specific rare item drops is the mindless camping. I remember camping for the FBSS. I would go to Lower Guk to get on the FBSS camp group list, if a high level wasn’t solo camping/farming it and do other things while I waited for a message that a spot in the group was opening up. Then I would head to the group and be put on the order list for who gets the FBSS drop from 1 to 6; me being the newest member to the group and getting last/6. Rinse and repeat until I got the drop.
Why did I do this insanity? Because I found it hard getting into better groups and camps without having the FBSS. I would like to avoid this in Pantheon, if possible.
Darch said:
There were extremes in EQ though based on a combination of the rarity of a specific NPC that then had a low chance to drop an item and then your static spawn raid encounter that had a much higher chance, but required a raid force to take down, and then you were competing with X number of others for the same item. Both of those mechanics created a false sense of exclusivity and importance. I believe the path PRotF is going down is having less exclusivity, but more unique items, with the iconic and class-important items being obtainable if the players put in the time. To use EQ as an example, i.e. there wont be 100% of the melee vying for the FBSS that had a 1.5% chance to drop off of an NPC with a 10% chance to spawn every 24 minutes after killing the PH simply for 21% haste. Instead, the Frenzied Ghoul would spawn in a random location and the FBSS could have a different stat like EB or something. It still makes the item valuable, but removes the desire to monopolize the item in hopes of "intentionally" blocking or paygating content from others on a solo/group level. This should reduce the desire of a lvl 50 from taking "all" of the good loot from say level 30 players simply because they know exactly where the spawn points/timers are and can do more damage (while having minimal risk to themselves -thus removing risk vs reward and leaving only greed). I think this will make all items even more special because you can get an upgrade at any point... not just at a specific camp that you have to sit at for day/weeks because you want that one specific trait (21% haste). This will also allow players to adventure/explore more areas and feel less like "I need to level in one specific area from 28-34 if I want a chance at having haste before lvl 50". This will also create a very lively trade market when a caster finds a haste item and is willing to trade it for a mana regen item that a melee found (perhaps even the same item with just different effects /shrug)... Raid content sounds like another beast that will be competitive and sounds fun.
I hope Pantheon can find a way to prevent intentional blocking of content/items. I think a good solution is to tie rare items to a mob rarity rating rather than a specific mob. For simplicity, let’s say Pantheon mobs have a rarity rating from 1 to 10. Let’s say there is a Sword of Super Awesomeness that is given a rarity rating of 8. So now I’m not required to go to Amberfaet to camp the Sword of Super Awesomeness from a specific mob there. I can adventure all over Terminus and I have a chance of getting the Sword of Super Awesomeness off any rarity rating 8 mob. You can add zone group ratings so that some items can only drop in some zones. There are many customizations and refinements you can make.
I just don’t want to wait for The Farmer who has been camping the frenzied ghoul for the last month to move on to something else so I can have a shot at my FBSS.
You really dont think a 0.01% mount drop from a tough raid boss that has a weekly lockout and takes 2+ hours to finish and competing against 10-40 people isnt too rare?
I would disagree, not to mention people with other stuff going on and other games to play.
Grimseethe said:You really dont think a 0.01% mount drop from a tough raid boss that has a weekly lockout and takes 2+ hours to finish and competing against 10-40 people isnt too rare?
I would disagree, not to mention people with other stuff going on and other games to play.
Pantheon should not be designed around what other things players may have going on or what other games they might be playing.
That sort of player entitlement is what has ruined so many recent MMOs and created the idea that everyone can accomplish everything with minimal effort and time needed, the homogenisation of player-roles and access to content.
I think you should really read https://www.pantheonmmo.com/faq/what-are-pantheons-tenets/
Just because you don't have the time you used to doesn't mean you should have everything you used to. If I cut my work to 4 hours a week I would never say I should still get paid like I used to. Our lives have all changed, why shouldn't your standing on the server also change? Do you want to be tied for best on server with 90% of the players from easy loot? If the barrier to getting everything is low then everyone will have it just like all other MMOs.
Difficulty is a meaningless barrier when everyone eventually puts all content on farm.
I don't wan't to be able to beat an MMO where after a few months the guild is done raiding except for alts because rare is only a color.