Underwater content is a hard pass for me. If there is an occasional requirement to swim through water to get to an cave entrance, ok, cool. If there is an occasional requirement to swim down and inspect a treasure chest. Sure. But to be in water, having fights, explore, roam, harvest etc. as if it where above ground content, big NO. Underwater is annoying, visiablity is bad, view distance is filtered, movement is sluggish sloppy and slow. Animations are always wonky. And Underwater shouldn't be a feature. It's a hinderance.
I'm a bit conflicted, having played in Iksar Necro in EQ, I was able to solo underwater content for good exp. However, it was always hard to find a group for said content when I got bored soling.
I'd like certain boss fights that transition from land to water, or air to water to land etc....but not sure if the "juice would be worth the squeeze" in regards to the coding and work required to support the air/water environments.
if there is no underwater combat I'd be fine, if there is the extra risk should be rewarded and some of the things Kittik touched on such as visbility and animations need to be addressed as well.
I am inclined to agree with Kittik. Having an underwater area for those that enjoy such wouldn't bother me but if significant content is "gated" behind doing a lot of things underwater that could be a problem.
My main issue underwater is breathing. I do not like time limits in general - as I get older things simply take longer - plus it is hard to enjoy the ambiance while rushing frantically. If I have to do a number of things with a constraint that I will drown in 60 seconds this is not good. Giving some ability to breath underwater via gear or magic or air vents - numerous and easy to find air vents - solves this issue for me.
Visibility is another issue. In a game with real death penalties it is simply wrong to force us into areas where we cannot see well and will often stumble into enemies we cannot fight successfully. Especially landscape areas where many of us may be exploring on our own to enjoy the place not there in a group quite capable of killing anything we meet. Underwater areas may, or may not, present visibilty issues.
Thirdly three dimensional fighting is simply much harder. It is harder to notice enemies that may be above or below as well as in front or behind. It is harder to target enemies and harder for melee classes to get to them It is harder to stack enemies for area attacks. The designers should take all of this into account and where the nature of the landscape makes combat inherently difficult, reduce the combat power of the mobs with this in mind. Thus, a group of 5 ogres on land should normally be more powerful than a group of five water-ogres.
Hmm it's actually a very 'big' question.
"Underwater" effectively means anaerobic, short-range visibility, dark, high pressure and low gravity. Pretty complex to 'do' well. Difficult to make immersive (excuse the pun) if not 'realistic' and if it *is* realistic it would be quite annoying to cope with all the limitations on top of challenging combat.
Then again it's just a bunch of environmental factors plus 'climbing' through water and, if climbing-related content can be done well in the 'land' game (and there is lots of verticality in dungeons, no) then surely underwater is similar or maybe easier, since there's less pathing over/around things when monsters can swim/float straight at you?
Another thought occurs, though: Joppa seemed very dead-set against flying (and I agree, fundamentally), but doesn't swimming and underwater content sound pretty much like flying and aerial content?...
O I just hate every underwater zone I've ever been in. Maybe somehow Terminus will be different, but I am a skeptic.
Kittik said it well.
In an underwater zone I can get attacked from any angle. My path can need to be in any direction. I seldom get a chance to see my attacker. I move very slowly. Turning sucks. Vision is hard. In eq you needed a "trinket" to be able to breathe underwater. If you have one breathing is not a problem, if you don't have one you're sunk.
Id like to see boats. I'd like to sail the ocean. I'd like to fight on top of the waters of Terminus.
I quite enjoy underwear content. I remember the joy of exploring and finding a shipwreck in EQII. I really hope that we will have this content and also that there will be different marine environments. Tropical areas should have clear water, vibrant colors, coral reefs, etc. Other areas could have reduced visibility, kelp forests, and a rocky coastline. Frozen areas could have frozen lakes with only a few places in through the ice.
Imagine a frozen lake covered in very challenging mobs. Now imagine finding a hole in the ice and deciding if you want to risk the swim instead.
To the point of swimming being like flying, I don't think it is the same. Aside from being slower, most (if not all) mobs can swim and thus you can't actually avoid risk by swimming above it. They could do this with flying too, if they wanted. If the game had aggressive flying mobs with large aggro range, they could make flying even more dangerous than land travel.
Ultimately, it comes down to how it's made and how the game "camera" functions. Most bad underwater experiences I have had were in games where the 3rd person camera wouldn't move out far enough or it moved around too rapidly, making it hard to track the action. Also, visibility range needs to be much higher than what is realistic. The challenge should come from the environment, not from UI limitations.
I don't know how much I would enjoy an underwater dungeon. I haven't really tried games with extensive underwater content. I've fought underwater in EQ2 where you sometimes need to dive for shiny's treasure, or to traverse cave sections. But that is nothing like the wellpond in Wild's End. I'm cautiously optimistic; but the best answer to the question is that I don't really know.
Kilsin said:Community Opinion - Do you like underwater content and if so, what would you like to see in Pantheon? if not, why? #MMORPG #CommunityMatters
I've not played a game yet where doing anything underwater is an actual enjoyable experience. All the game mechanics that work on dry ground get completed effed when you move them underwater. The world essentially takes place on a flat 2D surface where everything takes place. That flying NPC you attack comes down to the ground and fights you. When you try to introduce a true 3rd dimension it all just feels, looks and functions terribly. Everything becomes a huge annoyance:
I want to cast a spell but due to the every slight movements that contantly take place, I get interrupted again and again or An NPC barely touches me and I get shoved, interrupting my spells. I also can't ever seem to move straight up or down without having to spin my character in circles because the game engine doesn't understand such a movement.
Now I know you all are trying to introduce more underwater content, what with your reveal that the big sinkhole in Wilds End is, supposedly, 3,000m deep, but if you cannot get the underwater movements and mechanics right, all if it is going to fail.
I usually enjoy underwater content. It's a different perspective that you don't always get when you have to be concerned about the X and Y axis. Hopefully the lead boots type item, like in zelda, that allows players to walk on the bottom doesn't diminish the underwater experience.
OMG yes. It balances out Climbing. It hides secret places. The world is not complete without it. Underwater cave exploring is one of the most dangerous things you can do.
Stated in the streams "3000 meters to explore above and below sea level". Some players will climb the mountain, some will climb and swim and die under the mountain. the loot should be 30% better underwater...lol
I feel that underwater is a necessary evil for an RPG or adventure game. It adds to immersion and provides that triumphant sense of accomplishment when conquered, due to the additional challenges that it provides. I think there absolutely should be some underwater content, although in moderation.
Is this referring to that well that was seen in the Wild's End stream? I remember there was a huge subterranean cavern that was underwater beneath that well.
If there is to be underwater content, I would limit it to just that, and not provide an entire continent (sea) of underwater-verse for better allocation of resources. It seems underwater trekking consumes time and resources that can be far better utilized into better areas - like combat mechanics and/or lore.
Vandraad said:Kilsin said:Community Opinion - Do you like underwater content and if so, what would you like to see in Pantheon? if not, why? #MMORPG #CommunityMatters
I've not played a game yet where doing anything underwater is an actual enjoyable experience. All the game mechanics that work on dry ground get completed effed when you move them underwater. The world essentially takes place on a flat 2D surface where everything takes place. That flying NPC you attack comes down to the ground and fights you. When you try to introduce a true 3rd dimension it all just feels, looks and functions terribly. Everything becomes a huge annoyance:
I want to cast a spell but due to the every slight movements that contantly take place, I get interrupted again and again or An NPC barely touches me and I get shoved, interrupting my spells. I also can't ever seem to move straight up or down without having to spin my character in circles because the game engine doesn't understand such a movement.
Now I know you all are trying to introduce more underwater content, what with your reveal that the big sinkhole in Wilds End is, supposedly, 3,000m deep, but if you cannot get the underwater movements and mechanics right, all if it is going to fail.
I think you are right about underwater "combat". VR definately needs to do it right. I am sure players will be limited how they can fight while climbing, water should be treated simular. Water should be treated more of an obstacle. Imagine it as having the player overcome the deep water as a challange, then when they reach a air pocket and climb out.
Should Heavy armor be an issue in deep water?
Should you be able to use spells underwater?
Should there be enchanted relics that can be used underwater like a "Wand of Pacify Creature"
Can you wield a sword underwater, or do you need a specialized spring loaded harpoon?
Or small blades hand to hand combat -2 strength modifier unless you are a Dark Myr
Use of moster lures of some kind to eliminate the underwater threat before transversing.
A wall is a climbing medium. Deep water is swimming medium. They need to be clever designing it.
Subterrannean content is a must. If I was defining the topic it would be "Do you like Subterranean content?
Yes I very much wish to play a Dark Myr Wizard. I understand the frustration of others regarding an unfamiliar environment. The controls will be altered, the fear of danger from all directions and the inability to hide ones farts. But I believe it should be done and it should be treated like any other biome. Just really allow flexibility with controls so players can tailor there approach. Test test test will be the key. I want treasure from the deep to be something others can't have unless they face their fear and conquer the will to go. If it is content a gamer feels is 'gated' then it's the gamers problem, not everything is to be handed to them. The dark still waters hold danger and adventures for the brave willing to dive.
Note: allow a real fast twist or turning underwater, that's what it feels like IRL, yes there is a smaller field of view but you can quickly orient yourself in any direction with a little practice.
The problems with underwater adventure that others have mentioned are real, and if Pantheon's underwater biome suffers from them then yes, I'll probably avoid it. Though I would very much LIKE to have underwater adventuring.
I do recall from a good while ago, hearing from VR that they are strongly motivated to combat those problems. The description that I heard at that time, of what the underwater world on Terminus will be like, sounded most excellent. And the ability to avoid StoneFish's farts is just an added bonus that I never considered until now :)
So I am remaining positive about the possibility. To the point of planning my Rogue to be Dark Myr, just so my 'exploring & harvesting while solo' character can do so everywhere.
I typically enjoy underwater content, it breaks up the monotiny of running around everyhere and creates opprotunity to experience new biomes. Alternative underwater evolution can run wild and create all types of colors and creatures. Sandy tropical beaches that drop off into the coral inlaid depths and underwater caverns galore. I'd be happy with a ton of content that gives you a reason to explore. Maybe a few certain resorces are only availabe underwater.
Considering one of the races is merfolk, the whole city should be submereged with shops and banks and architecture to reflect that life. I think it should be a hinderance for beginner swimmers or the ill-equiped to traverse the seascape and as it get's easier, it also becomes more dangerous.
Underwater can be fun with some focus on it. Subnautica does it pretty well, and should't be just a way to get from A to B with a flat empty landscape with a timer until you implode.
I'm sure VR will read all of this and develop underwater content accordingly. I also remember the stream discussing this and enjoyed the ideas presented.
Despite being somewhat intimidated by deep water, I look forward to exploring the watery depths of Terminus.
casters: Love underwater. melee: hate underwater.
I think the question is: what are the rag-doll physics laws that should govern underwaterlocomotion and movements of bodies through space. You've heard of Grav-flux how much more irresistable is a current, fast or slow? who is it that discovers the strategy of using the undertow (an irresistable current you cannot see but can run into that grabs you and pulls you, that way) as one would the lazy-river kind of rides where by contorting a certain way you head one way and face another to...strafe arrows accross a given area, or towards a central target where casting does not work for the pull but throwing does?. Or, having finished a session being told by the more seasoned players to just swim out a little over the ledge to "look at that" and get caught in the undertow heading up- flinging you up and out on a geyser.
Is it one handed, because you are drifting al the time no real stopping or standing. Have to hold onto target to damage it, and it you, Some fish only have a jaw which, is kind of a hinderance to them- one way facing.
Gain speed by horizontal climbing? grabbing the seaweed and pulling yourself past it faster and faster. Climbing skill determins how well you are able to get a handhold each time. the better you are you can evade prdators and turn faster. slow down coast and dive while they swim past in pursuit above.
How bodies behave I think is the thing, games have tried to make it realistic which is fine to a point, but not make it fun, which may not be realistic.
I love underwater content. In EQ, one of my early memories is "learning to swim" in the little lake (?) in Felwithe, and marveling at the clear water. Other areas had totally different water with less visibility, this made things feel so realistic to me!
Unfortunately I never went to Kedge Keep during leveling (it was hard to find people to go there, probably because as we see above, there seem to be a lot of people who don't like being underwater). The place had a lot of problems too with mechanics, but still it was an amazing experience to me.
And I agree with what was said above already: Basic mechanics must work "right" (like swimming straight up and down without having to spin, or casting without being interrupted by the slightest touch). And underwater breathing (through spells or items) must be available easily and early IMO, to ease people into trying it out.
According to the February Producers Letter, you haven't even begun "Implementation of a swimming locomotion system including support for Z-axis movement, the creation of a new suite of swimming animations, and implementation of a water system."
So i say, why not go big and throw in a few Trampoline Zones so you can "To Do: Implementation of a bouncy system including support for Z-axis movement, the creation of a new suite of bouncing animations, and implementation of a weightless system."
If you add endless features, the game will appeal to Everyone!
Ultimately, I think not having underwater content will limit the richness of the Dark Myr. I can imagine a vast underwater population that has adapted to thier conversion to "Airbreathers" with domed cities (migical?) and a vast network of dungeons, sunken ships, and of course the ever present danger. Also, this is a natural enviornment for the Environmental Systems. To be sure it adds a level of complexity; however, based on the look behind the curtain that VR has given to thier awesome talented team... I believe VR is one that can crack this nut.
I hope to see waves in game as well. In a perfect world, they would have realistic physics and we could ride them. I'm not expecting that with Pantheon, but a shoreline without waves looks wrong and sounds wrong. Obviously, you can't replicate the salt air smell, but it would be nice to hear breaking waves. The sound can carry quite a bit, so we should hear it before we see it. And if we're to have storms, water really needs to have big storm surf and be choppy.