[----Vandraad said: Pantheon is not so different that anyone who has even limited experience in MMOs wouldn't intuitively understand most of the game mechanics. While things like Disposition and Traits will require some modification of strategies, it will only barely adjust the standard approach to combat. Pantheon isn't a revolution in MMOs, only another iteration that adjusts a few things while leaving the vast majority untouched.-----]
Knowing that the challenging mobs you just killed will have a different dispositions that could be more challenging and dying because your 'optimal' skills don't work on the same mob when you fight them again because of those dispositions. Knowing that you will only experience 1/3 to half the world by never climbing. Knowing that your singular way of how you advanced in other games needs to be adjusted for climbing and those very dispositions. All of those and more will change the way folks play from what they were used to.
Understanding how game mechanics work is not my point. My point was that you can't come into Pantheon using the same methods of gameplay you were used to in other MMOS, not that you can't figure out the new ones. I gave examples of that as well. My thoughts, within the context of MMOS, are that Pantheon will be revolutionary in that VR has addressed looking at all the systems folks are used to in MMOS and changing how those systems work and play. From combat, to exploring, to adventuring, raiding, crafting, classes and more VR has addressed each one and brought something new to the table that didn't exist in previous MMOS.
Folks not being able to figure those systems out was never a thought to me. We ALL will be learning together is my point. Lots of folks wanted Pantheon to be just an upgraded EQ. If it was that then folks would have an advantage over those that never played EQ and EQ folks would play combat exactly like they did in EQ. They cannot in Pantheon because combat will be objectively different. They will, no doubt, adapt. But, the point is them adapting to something different, not playing the same game with new graphics.
One could pick apart each of the new system, but all the systems in their totality is something I see as revolutionary in MMOS. At the very least they are more profound than the 'meagar adjustments' connotation you put on it.
Dikenzu said:Knowing that your singular way of how you advanced in other games needs to be adjusted for climbing and those very dispositions.
Tell me what is the singular meta that unites EQ, EQ2, WoW, SWOTR, New World, etc.
There is no singular way to advance in MMOs. EVERY MMO is different from eachother. They each develop their own meta based on the game mechanics allowed. The meta from one expansion to the next can change as well. In EQ2 the meta playstyle would change based on weapon delay. This is why FOTM became so popular because patches are rebalancing things constantly.
The meta will take over like it does every MMO. All that can happen is to slow it down and slowly play whackamole with rebalancing like every other MMO. It is why I am so strongly against the one thing that pushes the meta the most, respecs. The easier the respecs are the more common the meta will be which will then make it more popular and feedback on itself making it even more common.
Jobeson said:Dikenzu said:Knowing that your singular way of how you advanced in other games needs to be adjusted for climbing and those very dispositions.
Tell me what is the singular meta that unites EQ, EQ2, WoW, SWOTR, New World, etc.
There is no singular way to advance in MMOs. EVERY MMO is different from eachother. They each develop their own meta based on the game mechanics allowed. The meta from one expansion to the next can change as well. In EQ2 the meta playstyle would change based on weapon delay. This is why FOTM became so popular because patches are rebalancing things constantly.
The meta will take over like it does every MMO. All that can happen is to slow it down and slowly play whackamole with rebalancing like every other MMO. It is why I am so strongly against the one thing that pushes the meta the most, respecs. The easier the respecs are the more common the meta will be which will then make it more popular and feedback on itself making it even more common.
Taking my quote out of context does little to prove anything. My point, again, was that your previous knowledge of how you played MMOs and the metas of each of those previous MMOs cannot be used in Pantheon. I gave examples. I can go along with you that each of those MMOs are different in how you advance your character. Singular as in each MMO, not that they all shared the same advancement. But my point is that you can't bring that knowledge into Pantheon. You have to learn new ways. I gave examples of that also. My wording may not have been the clearest, but all of my points stand when taken as a whole. It could also be said that that point should be a 'that goes without saying' one, but I didn't think about that when I made my post and it was only part of a greater point. Remember, a big part of this is addressing all the complaints by folks who wanted Pantheon to be just like EQ in it's systems and game designs. That is a big part of my post.
I agree noone wanting the vanilla EQ/WoW clones will be getting what they want. The mechanics VR allows will determine what sorts of strats and exploits will be an option. That seemes like a minor point when talking about the meta. I think you are over hyping the systems Pantheon will bring to believe it is shattering the metas. VR has said the difficulty will not be so high you need to customize your actions for every single fight because that would be tedious. People will have their standard primary loadouts. Since people will have standard loadouts there will be meta builds and play styles well before launch.
In your original post you say "you will not be starting Pantheon with a gameplan based on your experiences with previous MMOs" but you literally will. Even if the impossible happened and everyone ignored all of the people who play the alpha and beta, ignored all of the youtube videos and forum posts prior to launch, if they go in with nothing but past MMO knowledge you will have dozens of strategies to try day one. Individuals don't need to come up with the idea of root kiting, snare kiting, fear kiting etc. When they get a new ability in Pantheon they will instantly say, I know what to try with this. Quickly testing multiple styles of gameplay and developing the meta at record pace.
Fantastic points. The key thing to remember is randomized attributes and dispositions make combat more engaging, and then add on different strengths/weaknesses from zone, mob type, weapon type, climates, etc can create some truly dynamic combat. With enough variation in conjunction with LAS, it will be impossible to prepare for everything. There will be lots of strategizing on the fly. I'm excited for what Pantheon is bringing to the table.
This is rare, but I am going to defend VR right out of the gate.
No matter what an MMO dev does, metas develop. It's as perfectly predictable as the tides. In fact, the more awesome, intricate and evolved they make their end game (which is what every serious player demands with like 2 dozen posts daily on the official forums of any MMO ever), the more rock solid the guarantee of group/raid/mechanic meta becomes.
If a meta develops and "leaves your class behind" (the official whine of MMO forums), that means the devs did their job and delivered hardcore endgame content that REQUIRES a meta. If they nail grouping like Velious-era EQ1 did, then a group meta will develop. If they nail the exp curve, death penalty and longevity parameters like Velious-era EQ1, then a meta will develop.
Metas are a response to the game being a proper challenge. The more proper that challenge, the more likely the meta....and the more narrow.
It's the most unfair thing gamers do to developers. They demand the most epic challenges, involved end game content, etc...and then gripe when quite organically, the playerbase figures out that a specific lineup of classes, abilities, clickies, etc is what best defeats that content, and they didn't join UberGuild_01 who meta'd the heck out of the game in order to beat the challenge. Most unwinnable battle every game dev ever endures, and I totally get why they generally ignore the whineplay about metas. If it was me, the more I saw whining about Raid_01's unfair meta that leaves X class behind, the more satisfied I'd be about how bad_arse that content is. If it requires Elitist Jerks and their spreadsheets of doom to beat, well then we have a proper challenge for the current content.
Dikenzu said:Understanding how game mechanics work is not my point. My point was that you can't come into Pantheon using the same methods of gameplay you were used to in other MMOS, not that you can't figure out the new ones.
Oh, but you absolutely can. Many of the same methods of gameplay will apply to Pantheon. 1. Aggro radius, the point beyond which a hostile NPC will not attack you; 2. Social assist, the mechanic whereby NPCs of the same faction will assist each other if one is aggroed; 3. Line of Sight, using objects to stop caster NPCs from casting, forcing them to move to a position of your choosing; 4. Hate list, keeping the attention of the NPC on the tank through various means; 5. Spawn timing, tracking the time between spawns so you know where you should be positioned.
Need me to go on? All these are such old methods as to be something players don't even need to actively think about when going into a new game. They definitely make any game that much easier to play when there are additional mechanics, like Dispositions and Traits, which forces the player to respond differently when facing an NPC.
I'll say it again: Pantheon is not revolutionary in any way whatsoever, only evolutionary in a few areas.
Vandraad said:All these are such old methods as to be something players don't even need to actively think about when going into a new game. They definitely make any game that much easier to play when there are additional mechanics, like Dispositions and Traits, which forces the player to respond differently when facing an NPC.
Vandraad said:2. Social assist, the mechanic whereby NPCs of the same faction will assist each other if one is aggroed;
Just spitballing here but perhaps, through dispositions, certain mobs won't immediately react to social aggro. While they share the same or similar faction ties, it's in a city that is more or less Menzoberranzan where every person looks out for number one. Or it's an NPC that is old with a disposition that makes it lethargic, unmotivated, etc. So they might come to the aid of an "ally"...eventually, if it serves their own interests or if they finally pull their nose out of their book, no longer consumed in study / deep in meditation. The longer it takes to kill their ally, the more likely they will finally come around to assist them or finally work up the courage (insert Saving Private Ryan knife scene) even after it's too late. And that point, what your puller carelessly assumed was a clean single pull (because the other mobs didn't appear to notice) eventually turns into a staggered train.
Vandraad said:3. Line of Sight, using objects to stop caster NPCs from casting, forcing them to move to a position of your choosing;
Vandraad said:4. Hate list, keeping the attention of the NPC on the tank through various means;
As Vandraad says, pantheon seems like an evolution rather than a revolution (but using older school MMoRPG as a base rather than newer) This is exactly what most of us signed up for, and exactly what is shown in streams.
Sure, climbing , dispositions , more complex AI etc. will add some twists, and hopfully bring fun dynamic play that attracts a wider fan base - but you can see by the core roles (Tank, healer, CC, DPS) this will play similar to classic role based MMO. Now people coming from a new school action MMORPG lie Black Desert may need more adjustment ...
Meta will form within a few weeks of player hitting max level, as it has in every other game. Smart design and using invested player feedback can make it so that there is more than one meta and more options and more fun.
Leevolen said:Vandraad said:All these are such old methods as to be something players don't even need to actively think about when going into a new game. They definitely make any game that much easier to play when there are additional mechanics, like Dispositions and Traits, which forces the player to respond differently when facing an NPC.Vandraad said:2. Social assist, the mechanic whereby NPCs of the same faction will assist each other if one is aggroed;Just spitballing here but perhaps, through dispositions, certain mobs won't immediately react to social aggro. While they share the same or similar faction ties, it's in a city that is more or less Menzoberranzan where every person looks out for number one. Or it's an NPC that is old with a disposition that makes it lethargic, unmotivated, etc. So they might come to the aid of an "ally"...eventually, if it serves their own interests or if they finally pull their nose out of their book, no longer consumed in study / deep in meditation. The longer it takes to kill their ally, the more likely they will finally come around to assist them or finally work up the courage (insert Saving Private Ryan knife scene) even after it's too late. And that point, what your puller carelessly assumed was a clean single pull (because the other mobs didn't appear to notice) eventually turns into a staggered train.
Vandraad said:3. Line of Sight, using objects to stop caster NPCs from casting, forcing them to move to a position of your choosing;
With mobs being able to climb, it shouldn't be as easy to predict their position and manipulate their movements as it was in EQ, etc. A shaman NPC could use Walk the Ages to reposition either after you lured them to the kill spot or during the initial pull with LoS no longer being an issue, and if they use Walk the Ages in the vicinity of other mobs, incoming train. There are other examples, but more thought experiments than anything. For instance, what if Celestial Aegis or Wall of Wood is capable of blocking LoS? Even if it can't block LoS, an NPC could still block the puller in a narrow hallway, preventing them from getting out of LoS in the first place. Now their group members have to rush towards them and destroy the temporary wall.Vandraad said:4. Hate list, keeping the attention of the NPC on the tank through various means;
NPC Combat Tactics video from June: 4 minutes in, custom targeting logic.
Nothing you said negates the fact that those mechanics will still exist. The NPC Combat Tactics? That's still just an expanded hate list and does not mean players cannot actively minimize, if not wholly eliminate, an NPC switching targets. Same goes for Line of Sight. It exists already, as seen in quite a few streams. No caster, player or NPC, can cast a spell on someone with whom they do not have a direct line of sight.
It does not matter than Dispositions, Traits, Climbing and whatnot may require some adjustments of these approaches by the player but they in no way eliminate them. LOS is a thing, aggro management is a thing, social assist is a thing. Just because a given NPC doesn't respond exactly the way you think it might, say for 2 NPCs standing near each other and you expect them to social assist but then do not does not, in any way, negate the possibility of a social assist and the players setting up accordingly.
Again, any player with any MMO experience at all will have little problems jumping immediately into Pantheon (with near zero introduction) and be able to use familiar and long-standing tactics and strategies for the vast majority of content they will face.
Vandraad said:Dikenzu said:Understanding how game mechanics work is not my point. My point was that you can't come into Pantheon using the same methods of gameplay you were used to in other MMOS, not that you can't figure out the new ones.
Oh, but you absolutely can. Many of the same methods of gameplay will apply to Pantheon. 1. Aggro radius, the point beyond which a hostile NPC will not attack you; 2. Social assist, the mechanic whereby NPCs of the same faction will assist each other if one is aggroed; 3. Line of Sight, using objects to stop caster NPCs from casting, forcing them to move to a position of your choosing; 4. Hate list, keeping the attention of the NPC on the tank through various means; 5. Spawn timing, tracking the time between spawns so you know where you should be positioned.
Need me to go on? All these are such old methods as to be something players don't even need to actively think about when going into a new game. They definitely make any game that much easier to play when there are additional mechanics, like Dispositions and Traits, which forces the player to respond differently when facing an NPC.
I'll say it again: Pantheon is not revolutionary in any way whatsoever, only evolutionary in a few areas.
VR has explicily stated that they are trying to add variety and new strategies to combat. They have given examples, but you keep trying to bring up ways that the game will be exactly the same while being dismissive of everything said that will bring something new...why is that?
Vandraad is right, there are basics that will carry over and people will have no issue getting into this game. A perfect example is my father. My dad grew up without video game consoles, but did have D&D. Every strategy that Vandraad has stated is something that was in D&D and had to be used. As my dad got older, The Atari and Nintendo systems were his very first home consoles, and those same strategies and mechanics carried over. Space Invaders, Centipede, Battlezone, Legends of Zelda, Ghosts n' Goblins, all of those; they all had the same mechanics and he easily went from playing D&D to playing console after never experiencing console before in his life. (to be fair I don't think my dad ever went to arcades, he never mentions it) Then we get into things like MMOs, his first being WoW, and because the same mechanics were there from his entire gaming life, he easily jumped into WoW and played that game for a long while. He had no trouble with mechanics and what not, because the same strategies and mechanics were there. Pantheon isn't revolutionizing anything, sure they are evolving things and adding a bit of extra stuff here and there; but as Vandraad has said, people that have even the barest of gaming experience will be able to jump in without issue. It doesn't matter what VR says, and they can add anything they want to their game, but even they know with all their gaming experience collectively that there are basics that will be there, have always been there, and will forever be there, and that no matter how much you change or evolve will never be completely written out.
OCastitatisLilium said:Vandraad is right, there are basics that will carry over and people will have no issue getting into this game. A perfect example is my father. My dad grew up without video game consoles, but did have D&D. Every strategy that Vandraad has stated is something that was in D&D and had to be used. As my dad got older, The Atari and Nintendo systems were his very first home consoles, and those same strategies and mechanics carried over. Space Invaders, Centipede, Battlezone, Legends of Zelda, Ghosts n' Goblins, all of those; they all had the same mechanics and he easily went from playing D&D to playing console after never experiencing console before in his life. (to be fair I don't think my dad ever went to arcades, he never mentions it) Then we get into things like MMOs, his first being WoW, and because the same mechanics were there from his entire gaming life, he easily jumped into WoW and played that game for a long while. He had no trouble with mechanics and what not, because the same strategies and mechanics were there. Pantheon isn't revolutionizing anything, sure they are evolving things and adding a bit of extra stuff here and there; but as Vandraad has said, people that have even the barest of gaming experience will be able to jump in without issue. It doesn't matter what VR says, and they can add anything they want to their game, but even they know with all their gaming experience collectively that there are basics that will be there, have always been there, and will forever be there, and that no matter how much you change or evolve will never be completely written out.
MY QUOTE---What I absolutely love about Pantheon is that we will all be, for the most part, noobs when first starting. No 'I cheesed the zone lines by fighting close to the zone lines' type established meta or anything that was used in previous games. We will have new systems and entirely brand new challenges to learn and figure out. Yes, after some time and years we will establish some metas, but you will not be starting Pantheon with a gameplan based on your experiences with previous MMOs. We will all be on the same page, so to speak. I absolutely love that combat will not be static based on having everything at your disposal so you can just pick the highest damage spells and run a rotation. You won't be able to download and add-on so you can watch a movie while healing and say healing is boring. You have to pay attention. ---END QUOTE
ALSO MY QUOTE---Remember, a big part of this is addressing all the complaints by folks who wanted Pantheon to be just like EQ in it's systems and game designs. That is a big part of my post.---END QUOTE
Even though I responded to these comments, you are all still making this post about things that take away from my initial point. Like I have stressed, my primary reason for this post was because of the folks who heavily criticize Pantheon for not being an updated EQ. I specifically mentioned how they criticized VR about trains. When VR said there would be no more zone lines, some folks talked about the game not being challenging anymore because leashing was a stupid, easily managed mechanic and that VR was taking the challenge out of the game that EQ had. Examples were given as to how the game would still be challenging with the dispositions, acclimations and such. I brought up specific mechanics that folks were familiar with from, mainly EQ, but a few other MMOS. The initial response was that folks will go in doing the exact same things they did before. In WoW you could only do trains inside dungeons or raids because they were instanced. That doesn't apply to EQ since folks said they had no instances so trains were everywhere. You were safe in WoW in the outside world because mobs would only attack you from a train if you initiated, not if you were in arggo range. I never played EQ, so I went off of what EQ veterns said the game was.
I pointed out some the systems Pantheon had that EQ did not and said folks will have to develop new strategies like dealing with a mob with a 'relentless' disposition that would chase you past zone lines. Something that, from what the veterns stated, did not happen in EQ. I brought up the LAS and how that will change how folks play because, again, some were very negative about LAS. I brought up BIS and how there will be more than one BIS for your class with weapons and armor. Having one sword be the only sword worth having at max level is replaced with more than one sword. The top guild camping and taking over one area like they did in EQ(It did not happen in WoW because dungeons and raids were all instanced) will not stop players from going to another area for another BIS sword.
All of the above are the various and many 'metas' that existed in EQ that you cannot bring into Pantheon. Instead of seeing that, some folks decided to be dismissive of my exact points and make my post about something else. All the while giving them yet another opportunity to be negative towards Pantheon. Basically saying there is nothing special about Pantheon.
I will insert my own, personal opinion now. I played the games(MMOS) I did for the decades I did because I saw something special about the game. Some MMOS I played did not have anything special about them to me and/or systems I did not like( Black Desert Online for example. I played for a week or more, but could never get past the action style combat and we all know combat is a major part of most MMOS and greatly affects our enjoyment), so I stopped playing and removed the game from my HD.
---EDIT---. So if there is nothing special about Pantheon and it's 'just like any other game', then I'm not sure why some folks are here spending so much time.
My point has always been to counter the negativity folks spew about Pantheon not being EQ so therefore the game will suck. I see now that I should have never added the other MMOS since that opened the door for the extra comments. I take responsibility for anything said that does not support my main point.
All the things you bring up maybe true, but I wasn't trying to make a general statement about general ways of playing games. It was dealing with speific ways in which folks wanted Pantheon to be that it is not. With that being said, I stand by what I wrote, but I won't respond anymore to folks expanding on what my point was becasue my 'valid' point then becomes lost, minimized into being meaningless and obfuscated.
Dikenzu said:
---EDIT---. So if there is nothing special about Pantheon and it's 'just like any other game', then I'm not sure why some folks are here spending so much time.
My point has always been to counter the negativity folks spew about Pantheon not being EQ so therefore the game will suck. I see now that I should have never added the other MMOS since that opened the door for the extra comments. I take responsibility for anything said that does not support my main point.
All the things you bring up maybe true, but I wasn't trying to make a general statement about general ways of playing games. It was dealing with speific ways in which folks wanted Pantheon to be that it is not. With that being said, I stand by what I wrote, but I won't respond anymore to folks expanding on what my point was becasue my 'valid' point then becomes lost, minimized into being meaningless and obfuscated.
Understood, and agree. I am an EQ vet, and times have moved on. IF Pantheon wasjust a reskinned EQ I would be pretty disappointed.
At the same time though I think myself and others don't like much where MMO have evolved to in the mainstream.
Free to play cash shops, preference for soloing and away from socialisation, need to button mash a sequence and actions per minute being most important thing, themepark worlds with quest trails that make no sense, gear being useless 2 levels after you aquire it.... etc.
What makes Pantheon special is that it (seems to be) a reset back to the orriginal MMO vision shown in EQ (and other early MMO) and then evoling from there.
There will always be an optimal way for dealing with a specific encounter and with time/'big data' this will be found out. What will hopefully be the case is that with different skills, dispositions, atmospheres, classes and resistances there will be enough variety to encounters in that not one build will triumph over the rest and each situation/boss would have a different 'cookie-cutter' setup. Again hopefully for different regions/encounters you will need to change your skill set and I hope having the LAS system will lead to lots of different 'builds'/variety much like in GW1.
First off lets be clear:
This is unavidable. There will ALWAYS an optimal way to perform ANY task. This is as true in games, as it is in life in general. It takes time, and alot of knowledge of the processes, encounters, spells and skills in order to develop this, but you can never defeat optimization.
Now that that is clearly stated - there are ways to curve this optimatzion and VR his doing a fantastic job. With the disposition and trait system, this causes adventurers to reconsider strategies and "rotations". They may have to swap out skills on their bars in order to defeat this new combination of traits and dispositions in this encounter. But, that being said, there will still always be a "best" way do do thigs, this can not be avoided. It will alter, it will change as time goes on and new skills and abilities are updated / added / changed, but there is always an optimal way. This will be most apparent in high end raids. In a group setting, "best" may not always be available dependong on your group make up. Best would mean that you have the right classes, skills and spells slotted for the right encounter. As these dynamics in Pantheon are fluid, with the traits and dispositions, "best" to me is not as important as the memory / experience had when something crazy happens and your group narrowly makes it out alive. Those moments are what make games like this special.
Now, the question to consider is if the "best" way is really necessary? I mean, you CAN use a brick to smash a nail into wood, but using a hammer is probably a better option right? It will be faster and more efficient, but you can still build a dog house with a brick and some nails...What really matters in the end - is that you completed the task / defeated the encounter.
The point where optimization really becomes a pressured goal for guilds / groups is when speed is related to rewards. Once a game incentivises players to complete tasks based on SPEED (better rewards for faster clear times) then you run into situations where it will be required to perform as efficently as possible. If speed is removed from the equation, then there is not nearly as much pressure to find "the highest damage rotation" or "most mana efficient healing rotations". This is not to say that elitest guilds will not want the highest performers. This will happen, but if you dont like that style of game play - don't join those guilds.
Ultimately - the point is that Best / Meta will always exist, but the degree to which it impacts your game experience is still dependent on the Dev team. Time trials, raid mechancis that are heavily based on speed, or encounters that give bonus rewards based off of the speed you clear will create a much higher degree of impact on the importance of guild members performing optimally.
My 2 Cents.
Shagg