Jason said:
How harsh should death be ? XP and possible level loss if your xp bar is pretty empty ? XP loss only ? "Rez effects debuffs " only ? No penalties ? What do you think Terminosians ?
Poll here !
https://www.pantheonrotf.com/polls/view/192/the-sting-of-death
Weakened player stats for a set period of time upon respawn (5 minutes?)(Unable to receive buffs), gear damage (?) (But considerable enough to take a chunk of gold or whatever the currency is in the game, not miniscule), minor xp loss.
To those against xp loss, or any type of negative effect...this is what is wrong with today's MMORPG's. With no sting to death, no one cares about death. So many make stupid choices and don't think about what they do and zerg in because "Well, I'll just respawn at a safe zone with no damage, no debuffs, or anything, miniscule repair costs. What do I care if I die" attitudes.
Harsher penalties makes a player think about their actions and makes the prospect of death a bit scary AND exciting trying to avoid it. IMO of course.
Kaledren said:
Jason said:
How harsh should death be ? XP and possible level loss if your xp bar is pretty empty ? XP loss only ? "Rez effects debuffs " only ? No penalties ? What do you think Terminosians ?
Poll here !
https://www.pantheonrotf.com/polls/view/192/the-sting-of-death
Weakened player stats for a set period of time upon respawn (5 minutes?)(Unable to receive buffs), gear damage (?) (But considerable enough to take a chunk of gold or whatever the currency is in the game, not miniscule), minor xp loss.
To those against xp loss, or any type of negative effect...this is what is wrong with today's MMORPG's. With no sting to death, no one cares about death. So many make stupid choices and don't think about what they do and zerg in because "Well, I'll just respawn at a safe zone with no damage, no debuffs, or anything, miniscule repair costs. What do I care if I die" attitudes.
Harsher penalties makes a player think about their actions and makes the prospect of death a bit scary AND exciting trying to avoid it. IMO of course.
I really dont think any here are against a harsh death penalty, in fact I think that is one of the main attractions to this game. I think most are just arguing how harsh the penalty should be.
Here's my idea.
Death means EXP loss and a naked corpse run. Should you decide to naked run for your corpse, once you get to your corpse, you "pray" at your corpse, you gain EXP back, all or part is up to dev's.
If you can't or don't want to do that, go to the "alter" and pray, you get yoru gear back, but can't recover that lost EXP.
Armor durability is good for the economy, but it should be the players that repair it or sell kits to repair, not NPC's. Could work that in I suppose, but not as part of death, more of "over time".
This is one of the deal breakers for me. If there is not a big penalty for death then there is no point really. I want the average player to actually think before they go into a zone or pull a mob"will this work out for me?" and know that if it doesn't pain is on the way. Bare minimum naked corpse run and an hour or two of experience lost per death. There also needs to be no way of recovering more then say 50% of that exp if any at all. Just makes people play smarter and makes them learn from mistakes. Anything else added on like equipment damage is fine. I just need the CR and XP loss to be happy.
Sabot said:This is one of the deal breakers for me. If there is not a big penalty for death then there is no point really. I want the average player to actually think before they go into a zone or pull a mob"will this work out for me?" and know that if it doesn't pain is on the way. Bare minimum naked corpse run and an hour or two of experience lost per death. There also needs to be no way of recovering more then say 50% of that exp if any at all. Just makes people play smarter and makes them learn from mistakes. Anything else added on like equipment damage is fine. I just need the CR and XP loss to be happy.
Agreed. Also agree with the 50% exp recovery. In retrospect, allowing 90%+ exp to be restored made death at high levels feel inconsequential. I'm all for scaling up some convenience as we level up (access to teleports, faster run speeds, resurrection spells), but too much can trivialize the game.
Dullahan said:Sabot said:This is one of the deal breakers for me. If there is not a big penalty for death then there is no point really. I want the average player to actually think before they go into a zone or pull a mob"will this work out for me?" and know that if it doesn't pain is on the way. Bare minimum naked corpse run and an hour or two of experience lost per death. There also needs to be no way of recovering more then say 50% of that exp if any at all. Just makes people play smarter and makes them learn from mistakes. Anything else added on like equipment damage is fine. I just need the CR and XP loss to be happy.
Agreed. Also agree with the 50% exp recovery. In retrospect, allowing 90%+ exp to be restored made death at high levels feel inconsequential. I'm all for scaling up some convenience as we level up (access to teleports, faster run speeds, resurrection spells), but too much can trivialize the game.
I agree, which is why I play P1999.
However, the dev's need to ensure the game caters to more than just a new EQ. It will not succeed as an EQ clone with pretty graphics and new story. It has to have some slight differences to attract new players away from P1999 or EQ live.
Other ideas not related here but maps...we need IMO a map that is uncovered as you explore, but not showing PC or NPC's on it, just an in game overlay to navigate like we did with EQ Atlas on a second computer or printed paper (anywya off topic but you see hwat I mean by catering slightly to both crowds, but maintain the great that was/is EQ)
i like the idea that recovering the corpse gives back some of the lost XP. adds more player decisions - if they rez you, you know the severe penalty will de-level your character. so the choice is do you make them wait for you to run back or do they go ahead and rez, knowing your character will be a bit weaker...not a super exciting choice, but a choice to make non the less.
side question, how many deaths should it take to de-level? if you are lvl49 , 1% away from 50, for example. three deaths? two? i didnt play EQ, so dont know what it was like then.
Liav said:Make death too harsh and suddenly nobody takes risks. Getting sent to my bind spot was enough to piss me off in most games.
You say that like theres been a game that was so harsh no one took risks.
EQ was considered harsh, but people took risks. Sometimes players did think twice about things, but thats the point. It adds meaning to your decisions. If you can deal with the higher risk and you are successful, you get a greater reward. If you fail, it motivates you to learn or strive to further empower your character. Those are the things I remember when I reflect on my mmo past. Sadly though, there aren't many of those moments outside of EQ.
The game needs EXP loss, If eq wasnt as scary as it was it would have been 1/10 the game. The vastness of the world because you couldn't go wherever you wanted made it 10x more exciting and kept us coming back for more. And AA's are amazing.
I'd honestly be fine with xp loss, but I'm not a fan of deleveling. Experience debt is also a system that I liked. EQOA had experience debt and it also didn't have any res spells whatsoever. If you died, you were running back. Strategic use of bind locations was required any time you were going somewhere isolated, in conjunction with the coach system that allowed you to quick travel to various locations given that you had already visited them once. I think just not having res spells in general would go a long way towards punishing people without having to resort to deleveling and severe XP loss.
I guess I don't care either way, to be honest.
I admit to learning to manage the deleveling, when it came to level restsicted zones. By that I mean, I would not run to the level dependent zone once I reached the level knowing the possibility of losing the level on first death would keep me out of the zone and possible corpse rot. Definitely a GM call- but then again, I was the sort that felt GM;s should not need to be bothered for self-mistakes. It fostered building a buffer of Exp.
Of course we remember the "good " corpse runs. But any EQ player will cringe at the Plane of Fear repeated wipes. It really drove home the angst of futility expressed in books like "catch 22" and the strange calm when the second guild that came to help- who were familair and succeeded previously with fear- also wiped while trying to help you get corpses. Vile spectres. "just...don't...aggro the spectres and bring them to ZONE-IN!" lol.
I like the idea of Exp-debt but I think deleveling should still be there. The horror when you realize you now cannot equip your best new weapon is not forgotten and a good learning tool.
I'd flip death on its head. First, I'd throw in some of the traditional aspects. Xp loss, and corpse runs. Item degradation is cool but what does dieing really have to do with item degradation. To me item degradation should happen when a player takes damage, I don't see why dieing would effect this any more.
Things I would 'change'.
- stat debuff. Some games debuff your stats for simply dieing. I'd debuff stats after the player died a few times in a row. Say the player died 3 times within 30 minutes that player would then get a debuff. But not for simply dieing once.
- I'd alter the classes so that healers are not the classes that rez. I think Druids, Pallies, and Necros would be a great start for being the only rez classes. This way the players have to make a decision whether or not they will bring a rezzing class with the group. Rather than always having a rezzer since the group will always have a healer.
- Finally, I'd throw a monkey wrench in to corpse runs. Something similar to VG where there would be grave yards near by sort of like the altars in VG. When a player dies they spawn at these grave yards and then have a few options; first they can click something in the grave yard to summon their corpse and receive zero xp back, they can return to their corpse and click on their corpse and receive some xp back, OR they can drag their corpse BACK to the grave yard (to bury their corpse, because for some reason MMOs make us eat our corpses and think it's normal) to receive a large portion of their xp back.
Just my $.02. Whatever the course of action is, I just want something that is different. I want death to sting a healthy amount but I also don't want it to just be EQ in 2000 or VG at its sunset. I want old school challenge and that old school immersion but I also want something new and different.