This came up on the /r/PantheonMMO sub: "How to make a simple minimap in Unity3D"
What's your feelings on this?
For it?
Against it?
Hope the Dev's figure out a way to prevent it?
Don't care one way or the other?
The end result can't be prevented. (looking at maps while playing)
As a result, personally I'm ambivalent about what VR does in game (much like their stance on arbitrage) regarding maps because players can and will completely ignore whatever VR chooses or implements, if it's not what they want.
Hopefully the maps people look at won't be viewable in game. I'm hoping they take a hard stance on mods and add ons...though it isn't realistic to think that will solve the problem 100%.
If they at least make it so mods/add ons are against the user agreement that would be a start.
It's a slippery slope. Give people an inch and you end up with that old thread about dps meters and other add ons from a few years back that caused a large argument.
I am against mods of any kind in general. The developers create the game, we choose if we like it or not. I'd prefer everyone played the game as it was designed. And I really don't want someone to change the design idea because "people are going to break the rules anyway."
I even refused to use mods in WoW everyone though probably 98% of players used them.
vjek said:But.. if I can play Pantheon in a window, and have mspaint open, viewing my map, on the same monitor/screen.. How can you prevent that?
It's not an add on. It's not a mod. It's mspaint.
Obviously you can't, just like you cant prevent someone from printing out a map, that is a given.
That doesnt change anything about not wanting mods or add ons in game. That creates issues much larger than a mini map.
philo said:Obviously you can't, just like you cant prevent someone from printing out a map, that is a given.Yet, if a third party image/map viewer is acceptable, then.. the difference is what?That doesnt change anything about not wanting mods or add ons in game. That creates issues much larger than a mini map.
Hmm, no addons or addons honestly the end is the same, if you cant technically have an addon you cn still run a bot in the background that technically isn't part of the game and have it run the numbers and have it tell you and your parties dps anyway, if you don't put in maps you can simply just load it up on another computer and problems solved, the only addons that will make a huge difference would be like making a LAS into a UAS, obviously this is a huge difference and should be stopped, but when it comes to maps, dps meters, or a bag organizer, or an addon that helps you compare gear together, and such things like this don't really make difference, and if you think dps meter does, than agin even if you do stop it in game, doesn't mean they cant download something to do it anyway, they just won't technically have it in game but still have it, so basically pointless.
@vjek
If you don't understand that allowing mods/add ons is about so much more than just a minimap then I don't know what to tell you. This shouldn't have to be explained...it's fine if it's not tied directly to the game of course as far as a map goes. Have a map on a second screen or print one out if you want.
I would prefer they limit client side info as much as possible but that is getting into a different discussion.
vjek said:If it's "allowed" or not doesn't matter, as the end result is the same regardless.
Limiting client side info would be beneficial but what about all the add ons that require a twitch reaction time that interact in game. They don't work if you have to focus elsewhere. It is a slippery slope...but again, I feel like I'm stating the obvious and there is a disconnect here
vjek said:If it's "allowed" or not doesn't matter, as the end result is the same regardless.
If you round any value down to one then no value has any difference anymore, which is what you're doing with the map subject.
Ingame maps and outgame maps are different, and only a small portion of players can use an outgame map as well as an ingame one, especially with no direct view of their character position and the direction they face. If the result only matter for a minority of player that will do anything to tweak the possibilities into easyness and comfort, then it's still valuable and worth.
I'm okay for ingame bought maps with no precision and a feeling for "Fantasy drawn maps", but not more.
They can have a stance of "no" for things like DPS meters or player made /loc maps from parsing without actively going after players who use them.
FFXIV devs (unless it has changed) do the same for DPS meters, it allows them the room to punish/remove players who use them to harass/call out/shame other players while leaving it more of a gray area the rest of the time as those who keep it to themselves are free to use them for their own improvement.
Bonechip said:This came up on the /r/PantheonMMO sub: "How to make a simple minimap in Unity3D"
What's your feelings on this?
For it?
Against it?
Hope the Dev's figure out a way to prevent it?
Don't care one way or the other?
Anyone that thinks map's arent going to happen one way or another (or probably several differant ways in reality) is already living in a pretty cool fantasy world.
I would prefer VR produce us a game and forget about mapping it... there are Fans just waiting to show of there map making ingenuity that will handel this just fine.
Iksar said:They can have a stance of "no" for things like DPS meters or player made /loc maps from parsing without actively going after players who use them.
FFXIV devs (unless it has changed) do the same for DPS meters, it allows them the room to punish/remove players who use them to harass/call out/shame other players while leaving it more of a gray area the rest of the time as those who keep it to themselves are free to use them for their own improvement.
Sadly, the FFXIV devs have expressed a desire to go after people who use ACT even completely passively, in relatively recent times.
Maybe one day, devs will stop treating their playerbase like children.
Liav said:Iksar said:They can have a stance of "no" for things like DPS meters or player made /loc maps from parsing without actively going after players who use them.
FFXIV devs (unless it has changed) do the same for DPS meters, it allows them the room to punish/remove players who use them to harass/call out/shame other players while leaving it more of a gray area the rest of the time as those who keep it to themselves are free to use them for their own improvement.
Sadly, the FFXIV devs have expressed a desire to go after people who use ACT even completely passively, in relatively recent times.
Maybe one day, devs will stop treating their playerbase like children.
For that to happen I think that a plurality of MMO players will have to stop behaving like children and generating customer service complaints from everyone else, honestly.
Neverwinter did "meters" well - allowing players to view their own statistics and simply granting a bonus to rewards/xp based on contribution within a given role. So this promoted maximum participation as well as gave feedback as to how you did in a particular encounter if you wanted to compare your own progress from a previous encounter and try to perform better in the next.
But to address the O.P. there will absolutely be third party maps online if the devs do not have some kind of map in the game... which will only introduce an inconvenience to everyone that will end up needing to use maps because once the majority starts using maps for referencing (and updating quests/perception points) EVERYONE will need to use them because of FOMO.
Add: EQ had no maps, and classic still doesn't - yet there are VERY detailed maps of every inch of the game online. Playing P99 was incredibly cumbersome having to have a map open on a second screen all of the time.. then going over to the other screen whenever you change maps... just inconvenience for the sake of inconvenience at this point of our existence.
One of the only ways to mitigate the damage map sites will do to the game is limit the amount of static spawns of any type; harvest nodes, quest npcs, mobs of all types. Would be even better if camps and such could be destroyed and despawn then respawn somewhere random in the zone.
Some of these arguments would be like saying "People are going to speed in their cars anyway, so let's just get rid of speed limits."
Don't change the rules to fit those who "cheat." I get it, people are going to do what they're going to do no matter what, it doesn't mean we have to tell them "it's fine."
This is about much more than simply a mini-map. It is about mods and add-ons...which have been discussed many multiple times on these forums.
Here is a direct quote from Kilsin responding to Liav:
"you will not be allowed to tap into that information and display it in real time in-game for the same reason we don't have a mini-map or "?'s" and "!'s" above NPCs heads for quests, we will not give that information to you to make it easier, you need to figure that stuff out by yourself by trial and error, touch, feel, positional awareness, game sense and any other way that will help you become a better player."
Why is this so hard to understand, it is very simple, we will not allow visual guides of DPS/Aggro in-game but won't stop you parsing this information out of game, we have not decided yet on how much information we will allow to be sent to the chat log.
Any further posts arguing this topic will be removed.
So, it is over 4 years after that quote...do we know how much information will be sent back to the chat log yet at this point?
I'm guessing we don't have any new information.
I'm confused about what the purpose of this thread is. Haven't we already had dozens of threads whining about addons? What does this have to do with the OP, which is an instruction video for how a developer can add a minimap to their Unity project?
Either I'm really confused, or everyone else is confused.
Also, third party chat log parsing has nothing to do with addons and I have no idea why it's being brought up in this thread. Kilsin's quote doesn't really have any relevance to the OP that I can see.
Someone please send help because I feel like I'm having a corona fever dream.
Nephele said:For that to happen I think that a plurality of MMO players will have to stop behaving like children and generating customer service complaints from everyone else, honestly.
It depends. To some extent, the developers should acknowledge that FFXIV's design is more adversarial than cooperative.
If I tell someone that they are wasting my time and need to learn to play their class, I don't think that's unacceptable (contextually). People join clear parties in FFXIV all the time without knowing any of the early phase mechanics, then get salty and file reports when they get kicked out or criticized.
The times people get mad over a parse in an inappropriate situation is extremely, extremely rare. You'd think it happens all the time, but it doesn't. It's a boogeyman that people are terrified of that simply doesn't exist.
99% of the time, nobody cares if you underperform.
FFXIV's devs are cowards who want to shelter their legions of ERPers who are scared of a problem they probably never face, or if they have faced it, it was in a situation where it was warranted. That's SE's problem, not my problem, but SE loves to coddle.
Taking it at the base level/face value you are right Liav. Maps are a non issue. Of course there will be maps.
Myself and others were extrapolating on how those maps might be used. Such as in add ons. Maps in and of themselves don't seem like a necessary conversation.
That quote from Kils above is about in game add ons if you read the thread he was referencing. Maybe the quote wasn't enough to convey that?