Keno Monster said:Hokanu said:Right, These features are not destroying the game, they are in their infancy
A 6 year old infant? Just listen to yourself.
I think you're letting the flames distort your vision my friend. Take care of yourself.
Not a fan of promoting fast-twitch style gameplay
Going to have to agree with some of the folks here, combos are not the playstyle Im tryin to go for, especially sht with short windows and you gotta do a certain action or feel completely underpowered.
This game should be about strategy, not being able to click buttons fast in a certain order. Leave that to League and FPShooters and kids on adderal.
removing downranking is a-ok if the design of the class is sufficient, meaning that the devs gave a full kit with plenty of options with tradeoffs of course
i can get on board with the current design choice of the las8 uas6 and 2 oocs(8 is it?) it's like poker, i can only have 5 cards in my hand.
living codex is basically specialization(talent tree and spell book folded together- great idea to streamline btw)
yay for gcds clarity. when it goes down to 1 sec, can we get countdown by 10ths?
glad that the prospecting shamans don't feel so gimped now >.> (not that the class was going to be the 'weakest' healer anyways)
i don't really care to see other class showcases tbh
vr probably gave the other classes just as much tlc as the shaman class
i'd rather play the enchanter, then give feedback instead of theorycrafting that shamans are lowkey op(i said it. watch, the most broken healer out the gates and don't complain if you get nerfed. ya had it coming)
i'm content with the 'state of being' (hopefully effects will be easy to see like a whooshing breeze for the duration of state instead of just a icon)
this will really distinguish great players from decent players. the faster one can spell combo, the more fraction of a damage one can do.
and it really is marginal. i'll put it into numbers.
headwinds
1-1.5 sec cast time
30 sec cd
4 sec window
for pve, this narrows the execution to just not getting flustered during your sequence this allows player class improvement. 4 sec window is really forgiving. grandmama is 6 sec faster at slapping a full house during family poker night.
for pvp, OOOOOHHHHHHH yyeaaaa... this is gonna be real juicy.
voice comm:
me- oh the shaman just casted headwinds i'm about to get nuked.
my healer- blows me a kiss, fair thee well brother! i'm am but alas, cc'd
*proceeds to get one shotted a wizard, jumps on the forums and cries about how broken shaman headwinds are*
eh i wouldn't complain about that really. that's just great coordination between the wizard and shaman.
as a team, we should have been ready to either break up the combo or prep the incoming damage.
like poker. call, raise or check.
a good design has tradeoffs.
btw i think mastery should change the profile of the skill in this manner instead of number adjustments or special effects
so if a player isn't comfortable with the twitch or apm tax, they can still be utilize the skill until they feel confident to mastery up in tiers.
headwinds
base level- 1.5sec cast time, 30sec cd, 4sec window
master 1- 1.5sec cast time, 15sec cd, 3sec window
master 2- 1.5sec cast time, 10sec cd, 2sec window
master 3- 1.5sec cast time, 5sec cd, 1sec window
numbers can be adjust but ya get the idea right?
Mana regain
I was pretty disapointed to see the mana regain skill. It was WAY too powerful in that stream and i feel would almost completely remove mana management for shamans when you have such an insigificant hp loss that can also be spamedl far faster than you can use your mana.
Masteries
Also didnt like to see all the passive skill procs that masterys seem to give. For example the HoT skill gives a chance to cleanse a debuff. I feel like debuffs should be looked for and removed by the healers instead of just spaming heals and having them randomly removing bad things. Maybe the HoT could give you a buff that allows you to cast a cleanse off GCD, you would still need to look for debuffs and choose to remove them and you would also need to have the cleanse skill on your skill bar.
I saw that mastery points can come from many diffrent things. I think it might be good to set limits on how many you can get from diffrent sources. Points that would be bound- xp gain and quests could have no limit. Points you can get from trading- crafting and drops would have some restrictions. The idea that you can create a brand new toon and instanty master many skills from shards you bought from your main seems broken.
Downranking
To me the reason for using a low level skill is because the number and variety of high rank skills is lacking. You shouldn't need to slove this by leaving in low level skills but rather make more skills to fill in all needs. For example- Bolt of the Bunny Killer- this skill could go down in mana cost and damage as it levels.
States
I didnt mind this when i saw it. I would guess that states could not only come from player skills but from the environment as well. This mechanic would make me think twice about what skill i cast next and make my choices meaningful- something i thought this game was all about.
A glaring UI "issue" I can see the April 2 stream is the three individual text windows. That takes up a lot of real estate on the screen and I'm pretty sure very few want to see all of that info all the time. I'm really hoping this will (if it's not already done and just not shown) allow these windows to be put into a single window with Tabs. I like to run three, One of Chat, another of all my damage/info, then a third showing everything else (all the other group members damage for example)
I'm sure Jason can make that happen pretty easy and find it hard to believe it's been overlooked, but wanted to mention it just in case. I don't recall any stream showing tabbed windows. I understand that it very possibly is already there and it's just streamers preference to have all of it displayed. Options are nice.
Another preference I have is a WIDE text window to minimize word wrap in messages. The way the action bar with it's nice graphics and all appears to be docked at the bottom center of the screen limiting how wide one could make there text box. I really hope that is movable as well, so I can stretch the tabbed text box across the screen and put the buttons above it.
Zorkon said:Another preference I have is a WIDE text window to minimize word wrap in messages. The way the action bar with it's nice graphics and all appears to be docked at the bottom center of the screen limiting how wide one could make there text box. I really hope that is movable as well, so I can stretch the tabbed text box across the screen and put the buttons above it.
It has been stated more than once that you will be able to move, resize and turn on/off all of the elements in your UI. Having tabs in chat hasn't been mentioned or shown that I can remember so it's a good thing to point out. I have just assumed (!) that it's such a simple functionality that we'll have it.
Jothany said:Zorkon said:Another preference I have is a WIDE text window to minimize word wrap in messages. The way the action bar with it's nice graphics and all appears to be docked at the bottom center of the screen limiting how wide one could make there text box. I really hope that is movable as well, so I can stretch the tabbed text box across the screen and put the buttons above it.
It has been stated more than once that you will be able to move, resize and turn on/off all of the elements in your UI. Having tabs in chat hasn't been mentioned or shown that I can remember so it's a good thing to point out. I have just assumed (!) that it's such a simple functionality that we'll have it.
Same, I've heard the same thing, and have also been assuming something so obvious wouldn't be overlooked. But I keep seeing three individual windows.
And then laity with all the LAS talk, and seeing the bar docked bottom center....
Just wanted to throw it out there.
Keno Monster said:Ezrael said:I pleged for the overall vision behind the game and what I perceived their intentions and goals to be.
I didn't pledge because of how the game appeared during one Pre-Alpha build expecting the game to never change and to release identically to that... sorry that you did.
For me the on-going development, iterations and changes being implemented show Pantheon going from strength to strength. I like it more with every stream and update.
lmfao. The vision beind the game that started the entire thing was how it was manifested in the first pre alphas. I'm genuinely sorry, and not massively, condescending, passive aggressively sorry like you pretend to be, that you don't get that. The irony is painful.
The magic of Everquest is dead, and this was our last chance to feel it again. VR had it in their hands, and they lost it because they didn't have the courage.
They lied to us, or screwed it up along the way. Either way this project looks like a massive failure. This is no longer Brad's vision, this is not a virtual world with the game as the means to the end, this is an arcade bastardization from a music teacher with too many eggs in his basket, and it's a ******* tragedy.
This literally made my laugh out loud. Funniest post I've read in a while and I thank you for that.
For those of you hyperventalating over the "windswept" state and somehow concluding that this game is now akin to Street Fighter (LOL!!), just realize this is a more clever way of applying a short duration elemental-resist debuff to a mob. Shamans can essentially debuff fire resist.....shocking. Your chickenlittle comment serves no purpose other than entertaining those of us that don't perceive the sky as falling. The game that VR is putting together is looking better with each on of these streams. I know it sucks to have to wait endlessly for this game, but that is really the only gripe I have, and I understand it's the nature of the beast with an indy studio. As far as I can see, it will all be well worth the wait.
randomrob82 said:For those of you hyperventalating over the "windswept" state and somehow concluding that this game is now akin to Street Fighter (LOL!!), just realize this is a more clever way of applying a short duration elemental-resist debuff to a mob. Shamans can essentially debuff fire resist.....shocking. Your chickenlittle comment serves no purpose other than entertaining those of us that don't perceive the sky as falling. The game that VR is putting together is looking better with each on of these streams. I know it sucks to have to wait endlessly for this game, but that is really the only gripe I have, and I understand it's the nature of the beast with an indy studio. As far as I can see, it will all be well worth the wait.
It's obvious you don't understand what short duration debuff windows mean, when having to 'set-up' other classes (or yourself) to get a bonus effect to occur. Let me sum it up for you:
"I cannot imagine how terrible it's going to be to have 6 people in a group, let alone 40, screaming over Discord every 6 seconds about what status effect is up. Denying that is what gameplay will devolve into is beyond naive. EQ was great, in part, because it didn't enforce a meta. Imagine all the other status effects across all the other classes, what a nightmare." - Good friend of mine.
Why would a shaman want a fire resist buff from casting a fire dot that will most likely be more resisted by, you know, mobs attuned to fire, and not resisted at all by mobs that aren't? It's really poor design. It doesn't feel good to get a randomly sometimes maybe useful buff from spending so many points. Putting up a buff that may or may not be of ANY use to the player, for such an absurdly short duration, feels very bad for the player. And I just have to laugh and shake my head at the people who think 6 second durations are cool and fun. You're the same ones who want the LAS so the game doesn't become arcade spam, and yet you can say with a straight face this is a good concept? Hell, they couldn't even get their windswept status combo to work on the stream without using dev tools.
Tbh, I don't understand the worry and complaints about the status stuff. I seem to remember that VG had things that worked similarly - but there were never (m)any complaints about VG's combat to be "twitchy". There it was so that once an opportunity to use a specific ability was available, the ability would highlight in your hotbar (and even make a sound effect iirc) so you were immediately aware. You didn't watch chat or debuff effects, you waited for your abilities to highlight. So IMO getting this usable well is an implementation question.
Overall, I was very happy with the stream, and hope to see more indepth views of other classes soon.
Fragile said:"I cannot imagine how terrible it's going to be to have 6 people in a group, let alone 40, screaming over Discord every 6 seconds about what status effect is up. Denying that is what gameplay will devolve into is beyond naive. EQ was great, in part, because it didn't enforce a meta. Imagine all the other status effects across all the other classes, what a nightmare." - Good friend of mine.
Yeah, that would be hellish, so we aren't going to do that. Beyond naive to think we aren't going to scream at each other every status change? You guys really need to adjust your communication habits, your default is too hostile. We will be very familiar with the status effects by the raiding stage of the game, having spent ungodly numbers of hours learning our class abilities and others'. I'm sure there'll be some preliminary discussion about the abilities to expect based on class make-up. And oh no, maybe a few wizards are primed before hand to be ready with their Inferno spell when the Windswept status comes up. These statuses will have visual cues. That's one thing I hope to see improved - better visual cues. But I'm sure those will be worked on more as development progresses. It will be a little messy in the beginning of grouping as we learn the systems and synergies, but that's a fun learning experience. Once we discover the combinations, we'll know how our abilities can stack on what we're observing in the fight. Remember, we won't be fighting many mobs at one time - mostly one, sometimes two, rarely three? For the giant god we're fighting in a raid, our 50 levels of honed observation skills can be employed. For multiple mobs, we'll be separated into smaller units to focus our fighting with. Also, we will not doom a raid encounter if we miss a few opportunities for synergy.
But yes, I hope visual cues are improved to reflect status. I hope spell effects are made to look a little more interesting across the board, really. I'm a little excited by the potential for demonstrating skill by recognizing a mob is being buffeted by magical winds and deciding then to conflagrate them.
So we're not going to be screaming at each other because no one wants to do that and it won't be needed. VR doesn't want us to scream at each other. *rolls eyes*
And Keno - yikes..
I think it is likely that if the states are critical then in a 40 man raid there will be enough sources that it will always be up. The raid might need to setup rotations in order to keep it up around cool downs but thats just raid organization. Make a macro that says who is next in the rotation and the player responsible will need to learn when and how to use it.
There is a big difference between a 1 second response time, 3 second response time, 6 second response time and 12 second. 1 and often 3 seconds will seem rather twitchy but 6 seconds or longer is pretty slow paced. You are not going to be able to AFK dps with 6 second response times and you wont be able to multi box with 6 second response times. Sorry not sorry?
To make a game group based and not solo based being in a group needs to mean something. Outside of filling class roles each character also should be boosted in their own abilities through other classes abilities so that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. This can be done passively through buffs or actively through skill synergies. Again I see the main complaint being based on not wanting to interact with others and again “Sorry, not Sorry”
Just so I'm sure it's said.
I'm extreamly exited and really looking forward to seeing it all in acction, both the satus effects, masteries and shaman in general, you guys a doing super great work, or atleast making a game that makes me all happy and warm inside to think about playing/exploring.
Alexander said:Fragile said:"I cannot imagine how terrible it's going to be to have 6 people in a group, let alone 40, screaming over Discord every 6 seconds about what status effect is up. Denying that is what gameplay will devolve into is beyond naive. EQ was great, in part, because it didn't enforce a meta. Imagine all the other status effects across all the other classes, what a nightmare." - Good friend of mine.
Yeah, that would be hellish, so we aren't going to do that. Beyond naive to think we aren't going to scream at each other every status change? You guys really need to adjust your communication habits, your default is too hostile. We will be very familiar with the status effects by the raiding stage of the game, having spent ungodly numbers of hours learning our class abilities and others'. I'm sure there'll be some preliminary discussion about the abilities to expect based on class make-up. And oh no, maybe a few wizards are primed before hand to be ready with their Inferno spell when the Windswept status comes up. These statuses will have visual cues. That's one thing I hope to see improved - better visual cues. But I'm sure those will be worked on more as development progresses. It will be a little messy in the beginning of grouping as we learn the systems and synergies, but that's a fun learning experience. Once we discover the combinations, we'll know how our abilities can stack on what we're observing in the fight. Remember, we won't be fighting many mobs at one time - mostly one, sometimes two, rarely three? For the giant god we're fighting in a raid, our 50 levels of honed observation skills can be employed. For multiple mobs, we'll be separated into smaller units to focus our fighting with. Also, we will not doom a raid encounter if we miss a few opportunities for synergy.
But yes, I hope visual cues are improved to reflect status. I hope spell effects are made to look a little more interesting across the board, really. I'm a little excited by the potential for demonstrating skill by recognizing a mob is being buffeted by magical winds and deciding then to conflagrate them.
So we're not going to be screaming at each other because no one wants to do that and it won't be needed. VR doesn't want us to scream at each other. *rolls eyes*
And Keno - yikes..
Hopefully, we can use ACT or similar programs which can give audio cues.
Coming back to the video after some marinating, my opinion on it hasn't changed much. I can see why people are concerted about the States, but I think it's a bit early to be so hyperbolic and over the top in reaction to them. They just rolled out the first demo of said system, so it's obviously going to be barebones. I feel like VR is competent enough to understand that a combo system with no indicators other than squinting at a buff/debuff bar, or calling it out in voice chat, is a really poor execution. I'm expecting to see stronger visual cues and/or UI indicators, such as an ability that has a synergy available glowing on your bar in a way that's very hard to miss.
Also, if the 4 second window is too short and twitch-y for some, what would be more acceptable? 8? 10? 30+ seconds, but making it consumped after 1 to X synergies are activated off of it? I do feel like 4 is a bit too short. 6-8 seems like a better place in my opinion.
Sarim said:It's more the durations, not the mechanic overall. Status exploitation is great. What Vanguard had was fun, for myself and those in my guild interested in Pantheon. Trying to react to a 1 second event when human reaction time + packet-round-trip-time consume half of the response window? Not really so much with the fun, and more of the punitive. Even worse if there is a global cooldown of equal to or greater than 0.5 seconds. Then, you just need 250ms for RTT, 250ms for human reaction, and 500ms for GCD. Now? You can't react. It's impossible.Tbh, I don't understand the worry and complaints about the status stuff. I seem to remember that VG had things that worked similarly - but there were never (m)any complaints about VG's combat to be "twitchy". There it was so that once an opportunity to use a specific ability was available, the ability would highlight in your hotbar (and even make a sound effect iirc) so you were immediately aware. You didn't watch chat or debuff effects, you waited for your abilities to highlight. So IMO getting this usable well is an implementation question.
Overall, I was very happy with the stream, and hope to see more indepth views of other classes soon.
It not really twitchy at all for the shaman. He’s activating the state, which would be a standard sequence. It maybe twitch for the other classes that may want to take advantage of the state, such as a fire wizard, but with good communication or awareness, it’s fine. 4 secs is a very long time.
I mean if you take 4 secs to hit or click your next skill... shrugs. Factor in lag with decent internet is 3.5secs. (i forgot additional math, follow up cast 1.5, that's a 2 sec window for the shaman follow up headwinds. side note gcd looks like it starts at the beginning of the cast) if the net code is similar to how wow handles data, then u can do what some folks call “drift casting”.
I would say Asia residents playing on a Na server for pantheon is super extreme example. They’d probably play an action based mmo that exemplifies individualism and very skimpy questionable functionality outfits ;0
also some shamans aren't going to want to be healbots. so they might want the option to be debuffing, state manipulation, dotting machines with a sprankle of healing.
options options options
we get class synergy, more skill expression and teamwork! isn't this what we want?!
It applies equally to anyone in north america too, if the GCD is 0.5 seconds (500ms) and you factor in even 100ms of latency (not atypical) and human reaction time of 250ms. That's at 850ms consumed in a 1000ms window, worst case. Fun? Not really. It essentially means you can't react "normally", but rather, you have to be anticipating every keypress. And to Vandraads point, then you're just playing the UI, not the game. There's nothing wrong with being efficient, but when the design forces you to predict the future, that's not ideal.
Far better to err on the side of caution than ride the knife of frustration, for mechanics like this, if your intended audience is the players seeking a spiritual successor to EQ, old school gameplay, slow paced MMO combat, and/or non-twich gameplay, and/or non-action-MMO gameplay.
@vjek
Your suggestion of 4+ seconds as a minimum response time I think is a fair number. Some of these states may last longer with the intent of getting multiple casts before it fades or last a certain number of triggers before it needs to be reapplied. I could see either one working as a way to add active synergy without getting into twitch territory.
I imagine that the in class synergies will be more as a way of creating complementary LAS setups to support one group role or another. As such the personal states are going to be a lot more predictable and reliable as you control them. This may turn into rotations of say 12 casts where on spell is cast once, two 3 times and a third 8 times for maximum effect but that’s not really any different than what we are used to and far superior to just casting action 1 twelve times in a row with an afk macro.