Hello, So like most of you I am pretty hyped for this game and can't wait to play. I have been passing the time with Classic Wow since I use to play vanilla and enjoy the slower paced games, however... What concerns me.. Is the game going to be "ruined" because of streamers or min/maxers? For example, lets take Alterac Valley, a pvp battleground for instance. For both factions to gain the most points they completely neglect the whole aspect of pvp and just do the objectives in order to get the most Honor(points) per hour. And if you did anything, and i mean ANYTHING that deviates from the most honor gain plan, you would be spam reported by 39 other people to be kicked from the game.
Another instance, while leveling. Most of the try hards would create "dungeon cleave" groups, which would just be a certain few classes that would gather up half the dungeon, just aoe them down in order to gain the most xp per hour. If you messed up a single aoe, or took a wrong step you would be kicked. If you were not the correct class you werent invited, most groups started to have a toxic attitude if you werent going at a godly pace.
Or the fact that if you wanted min/max as a pvper you had to play a horde race, thus creating the huge server inbalances we have now.
I know what you are going to say, well don't play with them. Well if 90% of the server is doing it its kind of hard not to. I just want to know does pantheon have any plans to kind of stop these types of things from ruining the game? I understand there will always be people there to min/max every situation but I just don't want it to ruin a game that I know I will love, kind of like how its ruined WoW a bit for me.
Also, will there be different factions, like horde vs alliance in pantheon? Or will it be like i think rift or i believe tera where everyone is the same faction?
Pantheon is first and foremost a PVE game (See the FAQ) and there are no player factions. How PVP is going to work is still not defined other than it is going to be limited to specific servers.
Anyone coming from WoW to Pantheon will be in for a totally different gaming experience. They will either be pleasantly surprised or will find themselves unwelcome if they start up the sort of crap common on WoW. I think you will find the Pantheon player community to be more mature and less tolerant of toxic behaviour. That's not to say that players won't be competitive. Of course, there are going to be min/max players and people who look for ways to short circuit the game to get to max level. In my opinion, this only becomes an issue if they start to disrupt entire zones such as is common with AoE groups or bard swarming as we used to see in EQ.
A test to the ongoing success of Pantheon will be how the CS and Dev teams handle emergent gameplay that the community doesn't seem to be able to cope with internally.
Celandor said:Pantheon is first and foremost a PVE game (See the FAQ) and there are no player factions. How PVP is going to work is still not defined other than it is going to be limited to specific servers.
Anyone coming from WoW to Pantheon will be in for a totally different gaming experience. They will either be pleasantly surprised or will find themselves unwelcome if they start up the sort of crap common on WoW. I think you will find the Pantheon player community to be more mature and less tolerant of toxic behaviour. That's not to say that players won't be competitive. Of course, there are going to be min/max players and people who look for ways to short circuit the game to get to max level. In my opinion, this only becomes an issue if they start to disrupt entire zones such as is common with AoE groups or bard swarming as we used to see in EQ.
A test to the ongoing success of Pantheon will be how the CS and Dev teams handle emergent gameplay that the community doesn't seem to be able to cope with internally.
Thanks for the reply, Id had hoped for atleast a faction base system like EQ2 was but thats fine and I understand. There were talks like this before classic released and it still ended up being the majoring following what the streamers are doing and the toxic behavoir that follows with it. I hope you are right about the dev teams handling emergent issues though and we can only pray.
hsiegfried44 said:
Thanks for the reply, Id had hoped for atleast a faction base system like EQ2 was but thats fine and I understand. There were talks like this before classic released and it still ended up being the majoring following what the streamers are doing and the toxic behavoir that follows with it. I hope you are right about the dev teams handling emergent issues though and we can only pray.
For the "vision" to effectivly work this is absolutely necessary and must be/will be performed. I think the "test" is how well will those implementations be. To that extent we can only pray.
hsiegfried44 said:Hello, So like most of you I am pretty hyped for this game and can't wait to play. I have been passing the time with Classic Wow since I use to play vanilla and enjoy the slower paced games, however... What concerns me.. Is the game going to be "ruined" because of streamers or min/maxers? For example, lets take Alterac Valley, a pvp battleground for instance. For both factions to gain the most points they completely neglect the whole aspect of pvp and just do the objectives in order to get the most Honor(points) per hour. And if you did anything, and i mean ANYTHING that deviates from the most honor gain plan, you would be spam reported by 39 other people to be kicked from the game.
Another instance, while leveling. Most of the try hards would create "dungeon cleave" groups, which would just be a certain few classes that would gather up half the dungeon, just aoe them down in order to gain the most xp per hour. If you messed up a single aoe, or took a wrong step you would be kicked. If you were not the correct class you werent invited, most groups started to have a toxic attitude if you werent going at a godly pace.
Or the fact that if you wanted min/max as a pvper you had to play a horde race, thus creating the huge server inbalances we have now.
I know what you are going to say, well don't play with them. Well if 90% of the server is doing it its kind of hard not to. I just want to know does pantheon have any plans to kind of stop these types of things from ruining the game? I understand there will always be people there to min/max every situation but I just don't want it to ruin a game that I know I will love, kind of like how its ruined WoW a bit for me.
Also, will there be different factions, like horde vs alliance in pantheon? Or will it be like i think rift or i believe tera where everyone is the same faction?
I don't see most of this happening and not becuase it is unavoidable but becuase essentiall when WoW classic came out their was basically 15 years of "Testing" before it came out, so the min/max, known pvp routes, dungeon runs and everytihng was been basically been known for and basically prefected for over 10 years, as for pantheon even though will be essentially min/maxxed to a point pretty fast in some regards i don't see it being as dominate for the mere fact it will be new and excepting that level of skill into a game no one has played seems less likely than a game that has exsisted for over 15 years and tried to bring back the "Classic" experience.
Plus if they do succeed in have CC be part of the quaternity than cleaving would counter it and therefore wouldn't be advised.
Riahuf22 said:hsiegfried44 said:Hello, So like most of you I am pretty hyped for this game and can't wait to play. I have been passing the time with Classic Wow since I use to play vanilla and enjoy the slower paced games, however... What concerns me.. Is the game going to be "ruined" because of streamers or min/maxers? For example, lets take Alterac Valley, a pvp battleground for instance. For both factions to gain the most points they completely neglect the whole aspect of pvp and just do the objectives in order to get the most Honor(points) per hour. And if you did anything, and i mean ANYTHING that deviates from the most honor gain plan, you would be spam reported by 39 other people to be kicked from the game.
Another instance, while leveling. Most of the try hards would create "dungeon cleave" groups, which would just be a certain few classes that would gather up half the dungeon, just aoe them down in order to gain the most xp per hour. If you messed up a single aoe, or took a wrong step you would be kicked. If you were not the correct class you werent invited, most groups started to have a toxic attitude if you werent going at a godly pace.
Or the fact that if you wanted min/max as a pvper you had to play a horde race, thus creating the huge server inbalances we have now.
I know what you are going to say, well don't play with them. Well if 90% of the server is doing it its kind of hard not to. I just want to know does pantheon have any plans to kind of stop these types of things from ruining the game? I understand there will always be people there to min/max every situation but I just don't want it to ruin a game that I know I will love, kind of like how its ruined WoW a bit for me.
Also, will there be different factions, like horde vs alliance in pantheon? Or will it be like i think rift or i believe tera where everyone is the same faction?
I don't see most of this happening and not becuase it is unavoidable but becuase essentiall when WoW classic came out their was basically 15 years of "Testing" before it came out, so the min/max, known pvp routes, dungeon runs and everytihng was been basically been known for and basically prefected for over 10 years, as for pantheon even though will be essentially min/maxxed to a point pretty fast in some regards i don't see it being as dominate for the mere fact it will be new and excepting that level of skill into a game no one has played seems less likely than a game that has exsisted for over 15 years and tried to bring back the "Classic" experience.
Plus if they do succeed in have CC be part of the quaternity than cleaving would counter it and therefore wouldn't be advised.
I agree that WoW Classic had a big problem being such a known world. There were guilds power leveling and raiding as fast as possible so they could 'own' their server. Sad, really, and totally missing the point.
The point is, though, there are players/guilds like this these days. There are people that aren't just playing for the joy of a (new) RPG experience. There are those that feel the most fun to be had is in 'beating' other players and, even at the expense of ruining others' fun.
Personally, I do not care *at all* if others get to max level and do all the content before me. I *do* care if they then stop others from doing the same at their own speed (either intentionally or not).
The devs do need to use their experience and try and have systems and mechanics that mitigate and alleviate that kind of stuff. It is possible without the evils of instancing or other 'carebear' hand-holding systems...
To the OP I hope that the past is not totally gone and this will not be as bad in Pantheon. But even EQ had some of this back in the day so sadly I expect it will be a issue and as disposalist said I hope the devs address it.
philo said:If you think vanilla wow is "slower paced" you will hopefully be in for a surprise. When it released it was considered extremely fast leveling/gameplay etc. compared to other games of the time.
I have mostly given up using the search function so maybe others can find this but I am concerned by what the devs have suggested on how long it will take to level. If and this is a big if I remember right in the last year a dev suggested around 4-6 months for max level for an avg player. For me this still seems really quick as it took me over a year to get to max level in EQ. But the level cap also kept changing on me. I was also a lot younger and I am sure I would have leveled a lot faster at my current gaming skill. But I have also learned that leveling is not the main goal I should have, so who knows it might even have taken longer…
znushu said:It was also considered a EQ Clone for Casual as well.
I had never heard WoW described as an EQ cone in any fashion. Other than it was the same genera I saw almost no similarities. I am not disagreeing with your statement or anything just surprised people saw it that way.
OP: your concerns are very well-taken. Nothing makes me want to /puke more than maximizers and streamers who exploit the game. Other than game development, I have yet to watch a gamer “stream.” I can‘t stand social media either - I refuse it (and don’t get me started on Facebook /puke). Lol. I hear your concerns though. The good news is that even after a couple decades of absence and scatteredness, good people are coming back to Pantheon (for the most part). If there is a community that shares your concern, it’s this one.
starblight said:...I am concerned by what the devs have suggested on how long it will take to level. If and this is a big if I remember right in the last year a dev suggested around 4-6 months for max level for an avg player....
I remember being a little concerned by dev comments in that area, but I think they suggested it would take even the most hardcore player months to get to max level. Some players did get to max even in Classic EQ in a few months.
Me, it took well over a year and then I was happy to play alts, so played several characters over several years.
I'm hoping Pantheon will be similar (or slower). I'll be playing alts from the start and will exploring and crafting, so should take longer than EQ hopefully.
Oh my, I can't wait!
starblight said:
I have mostly given up using the search function so maybe others can find this but I am concerned by what the devs have suggested on how long it will take to level.
Here you go:
What is your vision for typical time played to reach max level?
Chris (Joppa): At a highly aggressive/competitive pace, I’d like to see it take around 2.5 months, ~10 weeks. At a normal pace, around 4 months, ~16-18 weeks.
philo said:starblight said:I have mostly given up using the search function so maybe others can find this but I am concerned by what the devs have suggested on how long it will take to level.
Here you go:
What is your vision for typical time played to reach max level?
Chris (Joppa): At a highly aggressive/competitive pace, I’d like to see it take around 2.5 months, ~10 weeks. At a normal pace, around 4 months, ~16-18 weeks.
Didn't he also say he meant played time, not chronological? So, 1700 hours at aggressive pace and 2800 at average?
Maybe that's wishful thinking, but I'm sure there was more discussion around it than that simple quote might imply.
It's from the old FoH interview. Feel free to go look for yourself. That quote is pretty straight forward except for 1 thing imo.
The only thing slightly off is our definition of what "aggressive/competitive pace" is I think. It seems like the competitive number should be quite a bit faster in comparison to the "normal pace" number.
Thanks philo
My goals while playing an mmo have changed so much over the years I am just not sure if the level time will be an issue or not. I know in Vanguard I had to use the skill provided to stop all exp gain so I would not out level a quest or a dungeon before I was finished with it. Getting a max level in Vanguard took me around 6-8 months but again I had changed to enjoying the leveling and taking my time not rushing at all. I hope it will be sorted out in Alpha and Beta.
starblight said:I know in Vanguard I had to use the skill provided to stop all exp gain so I would not out level a quest or a dungeon before I was finished with it.
There will be ways to delevel in order to play content at the appropriate lvl through the use of the mentor system from what we have been told.
philo said:starblight said:I know in Vanguard I had to use the skill provided to stop all exp gain so I would not out level a quest or a dungeon before I was finished with it.
There will be ways to delevel in order to play content at the appropriate lvl through the use of the mentor system from what we have been told.
I have talked about this in another post and would rather not derail this thread too much. But in short mentor system is awesome and has its uses but being able to turn off your own exp gain has unique uses.
hsiegfried44 said:Hello, So like most of you I am pretty hyped for this game and can't wait to play. I have been passing the time with Classic Wow since I use to play vanilla and enjoy the slower paced games, however... What concerns me.. Is the game going to be "ruined" because of streamers or min/maxers? For example, lets take Alterac Valley, a pvp battleground for instance. For both factions to gain the most points they completely neglect the whole aspect of pvp and just do the objectives in order to get the most Honor(points) per hour. And if you did anything, and i mean ANYTHING that deviates from the most honor gain plan, you would be spam reported by 39 other people to be kicked from the game.
Another instance, while leveling. Most of the try hards would create "dungeon cleave" groups, which would just be a certain few classes that would gather up half the dungeon, just aoe them down in order to gain the most xp per hour. If you messed up a single aoe, or took a wrong step you would be kicked. If you were not the correct class you werent invited, most groups started to have a toxic attitude if you werent going at a godly pace.
Or the fact that if you wanted min/max as a pvper you had to play a horde race, thus creating the huge server inbalances we have now.
I know what you are going to say, well don't play with them. Well if 90% of the server is doing it its kind of hard not to. I just want to know does pantheon have any plans to kind of stop these types of things from ruining the game? I understand there will always be people there to min/max every situation but I just don't want it to ruin a game that I know I will love, kind of like how its ruined WoW a bit for me.
Also, will there be different factions, like horde vs alliance in pantheon? Or will it be like i think rift or i believe tera where everyone is the same faction?
So far as Disposalist there is no PvP planed but might have pvp servers later.
Dungeon cleave so far : Camping will be welcome and any issues with this play stile VR would like the Comunity to sort this out as its a comunity centered game, if we get any helping mechanics for this is yet not decided but discussed.
Min/Max as there is no pvp its not of any concern for this BUT If we fear some classes could be obsolete we kinda cant yet as we are in PA state my concern is scouting with the expanded climb system we need scouting as a major concern for any groupe, but wich classes will be able to scout only Ranger/Rough ? but we are in a early state and Joppa is on top of all the classes.
There will so far not be any Faction like other MMO ie Hord/Alliance but there will be Factions i guess we will have a Faction for each race and to other groups as well.
There is alot of stuff/mechanics VR whant to add but it will be after game is realesed like Housing.
Faerthale is made so they have a streaming enviroment and a ground for world building when its done they have more time for game mechanics like Crafting and such.
Hope this answears soe of your pondering on Pantheon :)
disposalist said:Riahuf22 said:hsiegfried44 said:Hello, So like most of you I am pretty hyped for this game and can't wait to play. I have been passing the time with Classic Wow since I use to play vanilla and enjoy the slower paced games, however... What concerns me.. Is the game going to be "ruined" because of streamers or min/maxers? For example, lets take Alterac Valley, a pvp battleground for instance. For both factions to gain the most points they completely neglect the whole aspect of pvp and just do the objectives in order to get the most Honor(points) per hour. And if you did anything, and i mean ANYTHING that deviates from the most honor gain plan, you would be spam reported by 39 other people to be kicked from the game.
Another instance, while leveling. Most of the try hards would create "dungeon cleave" groups, which would just be a certain few classes that would gather up half the dungeon, just aoe them down in order to gain the most xp per hour. If you messed up a single aoe, or took a wrong step you would be kicked. If you were not the correct class you werent invited, most groups started to have a toxic attitude if you werent going at a godly pace.
Or the fact that if you wanted min/max as a pvper you had to play a horde race, thus creating the huge server inbalances we have now.
I know what you are going to say, well don't play with them. Well if 90% of the server is doing it its kind of hard not to. I just want to know does pantheon have any plans to kind of stop these types of things from ruining the game? I understand there will always be people there to min/max every situation but I just don't want it to ruin a game that I know I will love, kind of like how its ruined WoW a bit for me.
Also, will there be different factions, like horde vs alliance in pantheon? Or will it be like i think rift or i believe tera where everyone is the same faction?
I don't see most of this happening and not becuase it is unavoidable but becuase essentiall when WoW classic came out their was basically 15 years of "Testing" before it came out, so the min/max, known pvp routes, dungeon runs and everytihng was been basically been known for and basically prefected for over 10 years, as for pantheon even though will be essentially min/maxxed to a point pretty fast in some regards i don't see it being as dominate for the mere fact it will be new and excepting that level of skill into a game no one has played seems less likely than a game that has exsisted for over 15 years and tried to bring back the "Classic" experience.
Plus if they do succeed in have CC be part of the quaternity than cleaving would counter it and therefore wouldn't be advised.
I agree that WoW Classic had a big problem being such a known world. There were guilds power leveling and raiding as fast as possible so they could 'own' their server. Sad, really, and totally missing the point.
The point is, though, there are players/guilds like this these days. There are people that aren't just playing for the joy of a (new) RPG experience. There are those that feel the most fun to be had is in 'beating' other players and, even at the expense of ruining others' fun.
Personally, I do not care *at all* if others get to max level and do all the content before me. I *do* care if they then stop others from doing the same at their own speed (either intentionally or not).
The devs do need to use their experience and try and have systems and mechanics that mitigate and alleviate that kind of stuff. It is possible without the evils of instancing or other 'carebear' hand-holding systems...
My point is that if Pantheon made a classic version 15 years after it was made the exact same thing would happen, as i said i don't think it's unavoidable, which I don't know if you could really make it unavoidable to a certain point, people natural through being competitive as we are will always try to find the best way to do anything you can in a game, thats just the way we are, and once you find it and prefect it, you naturally have an edge against someone who doesn't know it or hasn't prefected it, it's just that simple, so the flaw isn't in the game itself, it's us, we are naturally competitive and if their is a easy, fast, simple way of doing somethign most people will take it, much like air wanting to go thorugh an open window rather than concrete, and yes sometimes when people are unknowledged or simply unwilling to make it easier for others than can be irriated with you, but again that isn't the game fault, that simply us being us, and unless the devs address it and make it harder/or chnage the formula of that particular event, than people will except others to do it the easiest way, like we do it most things.
Like if their is a healer mob and no one is stunning we ask to stun them, becuase it easier.
If the mob is a caster and no one is stunning we ask to stun them, becuase it easier.
If we have a monk we have them pull to minimize the risk of getting bad pulls, becuase its easier.
And i could litterally list at least 25 different others things that are true and we "Expect" these things to happen, and not really be viewed differently, becuase it part of the game and it is part of there role amongst other things, and if you can kind other things that also be done with those classes that should be viewed as a good thing becuase you can play it another way, and not as a negative way, unless if it is breaking the game, but than thats something the dev should change, much like I'm sure if WoW classic realized you could do these things efficently the way they do it now back 15 years ago, they would of done something about it to keep the content challenging, but they didn't and it only became a thing after years of playing the game over and over agina for "Years" that it became a thing.
I hope that WoW stays strong and Pantheon lives along side it. I hope all (or at least the majority) of min/maxers and world first mythic chasers stay playing WoW and leave those of us who grew sick of that sort of play to thrive in Pantheon. I'm sure there will still be guilds wanting to clear content first, but hopefully they will be in the minority and not become an all invasive and ruthless playstyle willing to kick people for even the most minor infraction.
I had a lot of people in EverQuest do things to me or my group that awarded them on my personal KoS list because of things they did. Not what race they selected at the beginning of the game. Every other MMO has team based pvp, where you join side A & fight side B. I hate that system. I don't understand you folk wanting the game to tell you what players you should kill. Write your own adventure =)
Kusa the Ranger - Not racist PK Tracker for Hire!
starblight said:I had never heard WoW described as an EQ cone in any fashion. Other than it was the same genera I saw almost no similarities. I am not disagreeing with your statement or anything just surprised people saw it that way.
Seriously ? Other than being Fantasy setting you saw no similarities ? Class based, Level based, Level specific area based (now known as themepark). Quest oriented, Group option for more difficult content, raid option for most difficult content. Dungeons. and I could go on and on. Yes, WoW was an EQ clone in a lot of ways. What made it so popular, successful and profitable was a "perfect storm" of things that all happened at once. The game was more casual friendly, the game was much easier and much less time intensive (more instant or close to it) gratification. Then you have to take in all the outside variables like the fact that the internet was becoming less expensive and as such more accessible to the multitudes, parents were just getting to the point of allowing their children to play online, internet speeds were being raised to the point that you did not have to wait 5 minutes for a game to load. Variety was not so much back then, you had a few games to choose from. Warcraft was a major IP of the day and had huge followings itself. Many many things all happened at once for WoW to be the success it was and only some of those were about the actual game itself.