I feel like potions, poisons and beverages should require crafted (or bought) flasks (plates and bowls for dishes) and I think that after use they shouldn't just automatically disappear, but be available for the next crafting session. Maybe with added small chance for them to break (10%?).
When using consumables I think there should be a chance (maybe around 20%) not to consume entire portion of it (perhaps connected with a skill which would gain exp whenever we use consumable). The leftovers would then either be available for second use anytime or as a stackable (1/2 or 1/3) component and available for use after obtaining all stacks.
Similar process could be applied to crafting, where herbs or metal bars would not be completely used upon craft - depending on crafting skill and perhaps how well we did in the mini-game.
PS: This thread may have been better in crafting section, but I feel that is has more general aspect to it.
Heya, Hegenox.
I liked your first point about flasks until I realized that we're probably going to end up with basements full of empty beer bottles.... err empty flasks. Maybe a Faerthale scout troop will travel the zones collecting empties?
Overall, I'm not in favour of the rest of your post - not because I don't like the idea, but it seems to add complexity to the vast amount of data already being stored about items. On the flip side, I don't see that it offers a lot of value to gameplay. If you really want to have a chance of not consuming materials when crafting, it could be done with simply deleting or not deleting the item from inventory during the process. I think this could add another level to the addiction to crafting, given that people would always be hoping to get 10 combines out of 9 units worth of material. That could add an extra dynamic.
So thinking this through, partially used items add a lot of overhead without making a substantive improvement to the game. The other half of your idea doesn't create unnecessary complexity and could add to the dynamic with neither major coding nor data management requirements.
Hegenox said:I feel like potions, poisons and beverages should require crafted (or bought) flasks (plates and bowls for dishes).
To this, I can agree with. Empty bottles or flasks can still stack up in your bags and be sold at nearest vendor if you'd choose to do so. I doubt that would need a lot of weight added to the emptied items, so it's not a burden factor to the character.
Have a look at these threads for related topics;
https://www.pantheoncrafters.com/threads/water-as-component-node.305/
https://www.pantheoncrafters.com/threads/crafting-the-fuels.189/
https://www.pantheoncrafters.com/threads/alchemist-vials.170/#post-2850
To have the some %chance to recover a portion of a drink or beverage, seems like an overly complicated mechanic and it could actually put a delay into the economy. As the turn over of crafted item to 'consumed item' would be slower. So you'd risk having an oversupply of goods with a slower sell rate or a lowered item value from the get go. Also, how would this evolve in the long term? Should this be applied to all consumables or just the crafted kind (not quest or looted consumable if any would excist)?
Quite a few people have suggested something similar as resource recovery during crafting or consumption. Can you describe the need for it in the game? What is the hole you're trying to fill with this suggestion? Could you explain a bit more?
Celandor said:Heya, Hegenox.
I liked your first point about flasks until I realized that we're probably going to end up with basements full of empty beer bottles.... err empty flasks. Maybe a Faerthale scout troop will travel the zones collecting empties?
Overall, I'm not in favour of the rest of your post - not because I don't like the idea, but it seems to add complexity to the vast amount of data already being stored about items. On the flip side, I don't see that it offers a lot of value to gameplay. If you really want to have a chance of not consuming materials when crafting, it could be done with simply deleting or not deleting the item from inventory during the process. I think this could add another level to the addiction to crafting, given that people would always be hoping to get 10 combines out of 9 units worth of material. That could add an extra dynamic.
So thinking this through, partially used items add a lot of overhead without making a substantive improvement to the game. The other half of your idea doesn't create unnecessary complexity and could add to the dynamic with neither major coding nor data management requirements.
As Barin already said, empty flasks wouldn't need to weight much - 0.01u or even less would be perfectly fine, and if they stack and are more or less universal (same kind of flask for all kinds of liquids (hp potions may be just more or less potent, they don't need to be in a bigger flask)) i see no problem in the storing issue. If the recipes wouldn't require bottles at all, and the game assumed that everyone always have some containers with them which they can fill, then I guess it would be fine to do without any of that. But many games often requires in their recipes to have special container for the product and I just always found it incredible weird that they couldn't be reusable.
I get that it adds complexity, but that is exactly the charm - I don't suggest it should be added from the beginning, but would certainly be a nice feature in the future - something to keep in mind.
Barin999 said:To have the some %chance to recover a portion of a drink or beverage, seems like an overly complicated mechanic and it could actually put a delay into the economy. As the turn over of crafted item to 'consumed item' would be slower. So you'd risk having an oversupply of goods with a slower sell rate or a lowered item value from the get go. Also, how would this evolve in the long term? Should this be applied to all consumables or just the crafted kind (not quest or looted consumable if any would excist)?
Quite a few people have suggested something similar as resource recovery during crafting or consumption. Can you describe the need for it in the game? What is the hole you're trying to fill with this suggestion? Could you explain a bit more?
For the range of it I was thinking anything craftable/consumable except quest items.
It would add 1) natural feel to everything (realism, if you'd rather call it that) - I mean lets look at it that way - lets say in RL to make a 1-H sword you'll need 2-3 bars of metal (and you won't most likely use this exact amount - you'll be left with some portion of it), forging a ring however wouldn't even require 10th of the bar - however in most RPGs it's standard that you do need entire basic component of 1 bar to do so (you rarely are allowed to smelt and craft direcly from ore - and that I agree with), when you do a loin belt/cloth you certainly wouldn't need entire bear skin (unless you really suck at leatherwork xP). Same situation with cooking and eating - usually you'll have no problems in eating good batch of ribs by yourself, but sometimes you'd be more than glad to have (girl)friend help you out - having to do with the same outcome everytime feels artificial. 2) randomness - exactly the same reason why armors in Pantheon doesn't block static amount of damage and spells and abilities deal damage from certain dmg range. If given mob would do only basic attacks and always hit for 50hp then fights would be boring as hell - since you could predict everything. Sometimes you may find yourself in situation where "crap - I've just got 1 potion left and i need to leave this bloody dungeon " - sometimes having surprising additional use may be a blessing and additional hope before use when you really need this extra use can be very emotional. 3) complexity - in my opinion always a good thing (as long as it's introduced after launch).
I get that one can just go for an easy way out and give a chance to "not consuming item upon use" - but as I said - very artificial
I can see what you are saying with this, but there is a reaso that they have such requirements for even just a simple ring and loin cloth. From what I can understand and have observed, it's to keep the economy at bay. If you have constantly reusable items, like flasks, plates, and containers, chances are you will get to a point that there will be no need to buy them anymore, and you will have na overabundance of them, for free, being traded and then there is no real way of flowing money in and out of the game. For consumables, it is a valid point that you might have leftovers, but then as someone else has said, you would have an overabundance of leftovers not being able to be used for anything. It requires one bear skin for a whole loin cloth, because it keeps uinnecessarry and useless pieces from adding up and piling up in the game; on top of that it also keeps the amount of resources that float around in the game form becoming oversaturated.
I craft, I do a lot of crafting, and if you are compaing it to the real world, I'll give you a real world example. I crochet things as a major hobby of mine (on top of gaming and baking) and lets say I got to make a sweater for someone. This weater calls for 6 balls of a certain type of yarn, and each ball is 315 yards of yarn. Now the sweater isn't going to use all of the yardage, it's going to have some left overs, but because you can't really make a pattern identical to the amount of yards in each ball, you are always going to have leftover yarn, or scraps in this case. I do a lot of different projects with differnet colors of yarn and in the end, I have a bin of scrap bobbins that I seemingly can't do anything with. I can, but usually there isn't a pattern I can use these with. There are very rarely patterns made with scraps in mind. Most patterns that say they use scraps, are usually referring to a faily new ball or skein that has only had a couple yards used out of it (or grams depending on where the pattern is made) Anyways, now I have a bin of these odds and ends that I CAN do ONE thing with: make what is called a scrapghan, or an afghan or blanket made out of these small scraps. That's fine, I have made these blankets before...but after a while you do end up with too many blankets and no one usually likes scrapghans because the colors are just awful together. Even at this point you flood the market with a seemingly useful item, but no one truly uses them. On top of this you still have more scraps you can't do anything with aisde from let them build up again and possibly make another scrapghan. You could try toys and such, but kids don't really like them because the colors are usually too overwhelming. Having a different colored leg or different colored arms is fine, because it's a solid color and it looks patchwork, but to use the scraps on a toy makes it look weird. My point is, while you could find uses for these small items left behind, they usually aren't used on anything useful or even something that is wanted.
It's more economic for the game to require whole items to make something small, than it would be to go based into the real world and overload a game with items that are either useless, or useful that no one really wants.
Yeah I know what you're saying but I think this goes along with 'normal' food, coin weight, pooping and sleeping.
Having to deal with 'empties' might add some realism, but isn't particularly meaningful or fun, to me. It would just be a bag slot that people either let fill up with empties or didn't. It would just be a trivial thing that potion crafters had to think about, but not a challenging or interesting one.
Maybe for some very powerful potions you would need to deal with very rare and expensive bottles and perhaps *those* shouldn't be consumed and could be a 'commodity', but I wouldn't want it for more 'everyday' potions.
Fair enough. What about an adjustment to what disposalist said - there would be different very rare and unique flasks with different effects that could be used while crafting any potion instead of normal flask and only these would be reusable with the chance to break, but majority of potions would be crafted using standard flasks which would act as money sink.
Hegenox said:Fair enough. What about an adjustment to what disposalist said - there would be different very rare and unique flasks with different effects that could be used while crafting any potion instead of normal flask and only these would be reusable with the chance to break, but majority of potions would be crafted using standard flasks which would act as money sink.
Sure, why not? A 'mundane' potion would need just a cheap glass vial, one that is consumed when making the potion and you do not get it back. A special or magical potion might need a more specialized vial, inbued with some magics that could be reused a set number of times with a chance to break.
At first glance, the expert vials look like a good approach to the vials.
Somehow, it could also affect the inherent starting and long term value of those vials. Knowing that those can endure longer in comparison to common vials, could already have a detrimental effect on the perceived value of those vials. The requirements to construct these vials could make up for that, at least at the start. Over time, the abundance of these vials would counter the initial "extra requirement-investement".
Just imagine if those expert vials would be single use as wel, but still have those extra requirements in order to construct these. The market value and value for the crafter while crafting (with possible chance of failure during crafting?) would be more stable and possibly higher.
How about if you have a stack of those vials, you could smelt them into something different? Or a higher tier of the vials, possibly even fill one of the requirements for the construction of those expert vials. In this scenario you're still giving those used vials a second life, but it's not for refilling or recovering any resources bottled within. When emptied, they still hold two kind of values: pure vendor value and reconstruction crafter value which might lead to a improved/different product.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjXOwUnJzA0
this is the reason we can't reuse the glass. you have to consume the whole thing.
it's high fantasy.
I hope a Dev doesn't go math crazy trying to prove a point or force some "lerning" with bizarre 4-3 or 5-4 combos. 4 gets you 3, 5 gets you 4...
regarding vials you may not have done researching from the ground up ( to save plats) in EQ , vials of pure water, aqua regia, vials of muratic acid, celestial cleanser, celestial solvents, dirty vials, clean vials, 4 dirty vials, celestial essences 4 heat sources and a vial of pure water to make oh goodness 5 clean vials or something
and one combine makes 2 clean vials and 3 dirty vials so you have skads of dirty vials and one clean vial to make the thing to scub the pages\
vials everywhere and that bizarre math tha works out ONE TIME! where you have 0 left over! how did that hapen! there must be some math to it! otherwise, you have leftovers. and you tryto puzzle out the math and you figure out, ok 112 of these and 71 of those and that just about works out to an even number so I have 0 left over, but I dont need that many......
and then you fail a combine......
and you have to math it down to 1, and then you have 3 left over and you have to math it back up incrementally to 112 and 71... omgosh
okok I get it, some dev liked numbers I mean rwally realy liike dthe rlationship bewteen odd and even numbers and really liked how the interacted, but man im sorry Im trying to make some spells and living in the woprls, Im not grasping the relationship here and instead I am getting annoyed, ok? I get it, I really do, I see the math underneath it, but, there are monsters out there and I like to think I am being mysterious in crafting this spell- not a math nerd. All due respect...
Wow these are some interesting ideas for sure! A flask breaking is similar to how spell research (the poof) used to work. Flasks, beer barrels.. I hope that alcohol tolerance will exist in Pantheon.