Yeah, the whole state where you can hear yourself being beaten to death, and when the client finally renders you, you're a corpse? Not a fan of that. :)
But there are ways to do it elegantly. They just require the desire to do it and the resolve to implement it.
A single extra round-trip check (server->client->server) is all that's necessary before the character appears in the world. Problem solved forever.
Counterfleche said: Random, unexpected deaths from sources outside the game world (like zoning, which is a technical requirement) aren't fun or challenging, they're arbitrary. A game should be hard and create fear of death by having challenging encounters, hidden mobs, etc, not by having broken game mechanics stemming from 20 year old technical limitations.
rofl i just thought of a scenario
a player stands before the zone line selling invunrablity and invisible elixirs at extortion prices.
another player is train mobs on the other side.
only way you getting through its buying said two drugs as a safe passage.
lol another reason why i'm going to play on a pvp server so i can kill highway bandit players XD
Counterfleche said: Random, unexpected deaths from sources outside the game world (like zoning, which is a technical requirement) aren't fun or challenging, they're arbitrary. A game should be hard and create fear of death by having challenging encounters, hidden mobs, etc, not by having broken game mechanics stemming from 20 year old technical limitations.
Agreed. It is just a needless way to potentially punish players for no reason.
OP brings up a good point, and many have forgotten the unwritten sandbox "rules" that came out of it- namely that you "never" camp the Zone in.
from which begat the establishment of camps with nifty player made up names i.e. Disco, Disco 2, or courtyard, hedge maze, upper hall, etc, and then even further to named spawn points (when they were discovered to be static) which then begat the"camp check" shout.
But the temptation was always there, even as older and seasoned players entering a new zone , hoping to get it when no one else was there, to see what it was like, being cautious, feeling like a newb agaion with the safety of the zoneout right there, - clear a bit, untill you can find a good camp spot somewhere deeper in....
and then of course, there was Karnors. didnt matter how far back you were, lol everybody ran and everybody knew it, and everybody complained and everybody saw you coming and there were always 2 determined, bad-ass groups, at each zone out that stood their ground just so they could be seen still standing when everyone zoned back in- just for the sake of reputation making.
If you need an invulnerable camera mode just to prevent the rare occurance of taking damage before you've fully loaded, perhaps this isn't the game for you.
vjek said:Yeah, the whole state where you can hear yourself being beaten to death, and when the client finally renders you, you're a corpse? Not a fan of that. :)
But there are ways to do it elegantly. They just require the desire to do it and the resolve to implement it.
A single extra round-trip check (server->client->server) is all that's necessary before the character appears in the world. Problem solved forever.
To do what? Check and see if there's a mob at the zone?
nope. Zone in at your own risk heheh. I died a thousand deaths going to Unrest at lev 15. Getting there was rough as a Dark Elf. Long boat travel and KOS everywhere.
I wouldn't trade those deaths for anything. it's just part of the game. Embrace it and love it, it's more fun that way :D
Think of it as Horizontal progression. You group, you gain a half a level, you die, you lose a half a level, and rinse and repeat and at the end of the weekend, you gain 20% into your level ;p
Keno Monster said:vjek said:Yeah, the whole state where you can hear yourself being beaten to death, and when the client finally renders you, you're a corpse? Not a fan of that. :)
But there are ways to do it elegantly. They just require the desire to do it and the resolve to implement it.
A single extra round-trip check (server->client->server) is all that's necessary before the character appears in the world. Problem solved forever.To do what? Check and see if there's a mob at the zone?
No...the server needs to know that the client has actually loaded the zone and the player is ready to play. So that situation as vjek described cannot happen (you have a black screen and no control yet, but the server has already put you into the zone).
I'm very much on board for such a check. Otherwise, no to any extra protection beyond that.
Sarim said: No...the server needs to know that the client has actually loaded the zone and the player is ready to play. So that situation as vjek described cannot happen (you have a black screen and no control yet, but the server has already put you into the zone).Correct, exactly right, Sarim. If VR did this? No need for any extra protection, imo.I'm very much on board for such a check. Otherwise, no to any extra protection beyond that.
Yes, in 1999 when you zoned and could be killed before you even had control of your character, that sucked. There was nothing 'fun' about that. No 'risk vs. reward'. No role-playing. No immersive aspect. Essentially a bug.
Sure, we got to know which zones it tended to happen at and sometimes you could mitigate it, but most times it was just an un-fun experience. There were plenty of known issues and bugs in EQ. Knowing how to avoid them didn't elevate them to desirable 'gameplay feature'.
Some deeply rose-tinted glasses on if you're seriously saying Pantheon should be like that.
Even if the technical issue is fixed, though, there's nothing stopping powerful creatures being trained to zone that will kill you before you have a chance to react.
To be honest that always seemed some annoying nonsense, too.
Zoning in itself is a technical restriction. When you zone into Halnir's Cave, your character isn't stepping through a teleporter into the unknown, they are spelunking down into a cave system. Being killed at spawn is an unimmersive technical issue, whether it's a bug or not. At some zones you are literally walking in an open plain and continuing that walk. For a hoard of monsters to be waiting to ambush you on the other side of an invisible border is ok?
If there is some way to overcome that, it should be done. Even just a second or two immunity at zone in would give you time to react and zone straight back out. Why not.
It would still be terrifying without the unavoidable, irritating and worthless death.
Irritating death, sure, but it's not unavoidable, and, it's definitely not a bug - it was a consequence of having zones and no leashing. It could be argued as an unintended consequence, but most emergent gameplay was. As for ways to avoid it, much like anything in EQ, you played smarter:
Use invis, invis vs. undead, zone in with a group, ask the person at the zoneline if a train is at the zone (usually had a good idea when you saw 16 players at the Dagnor's Cauldron - Unrest zoneline at 5% health). Ask the players in the zone, /who all Unrest - or if you have group members there already.
Also, imagine the zone in to Plane of Fear - the zone-in breaking "was" the hard part. With this mechanic you could have a few seconds (or more depending on how you want it implemented) to know what to pull/where to go. That would make a huge difference in the difficulty.
I will agree that the feature had nothing to do with "immersion" and it's less immersive to have zones, but it did make me respect zone lines much more and it does add another "danger" element. I was going to avoid this topic, but it's irritating to see every stance on older mechanics (intended or unintended) are dismissed as rose-colored glasses; but, newer mechanics are always deemed ok.
The only caveat I would add is if it could be shown that you went /Linkdead while zoning and died on zone in, then perhaps some sort of invulerability could be added (I'd think that would be abused also with people zoning quicker and using voice chat to tell friends/guildies to /quit quickly though). So, I'd let a GM petition figure that one out instead.
disposalist said:Yes, in 1999 when you zoned and could be killed before you even had control of your character, that sucked. There was nothing 'fun' about that. No 'risk vs. reward'. No role-playing. No immersive aspect. Essentially a bug.
Sure, we got to know which zones it tended to happen at and sometimes you could mitigate it, but most times it was just an un-fun experience. There were plenty of known issues and bugs in EQ. Knowing how to avoid them didn't elevate them to desirable 'gameplay feature'.
Some deeply rose-tinted glasses on if you're seriously saying Pantheon should be like that.
Even if the technical issue is fixed, though, there's nothing stopping powerful creatures being trained to zone that will kill you before you have a chance to react.
To be honest that always seemed some annoying nonsense, too.
Zoning in itself is a technical restriction. When you zone into Halnir's Cave, your character isn't stepping through a teleporter into the unknown, they are spelunking down into a cave system. Being killed at spawn is an unimmersive technical issue, whether it's a bug or not. At some zones you are literally walking in an open plain and continuing that walk. For a hoard of monsters to be waiting to ambush you on the other side of an invisible border is ok?
If there is some way to overcome that, it should be done. Even just a second or two immunity at zone in would give you time to react and zone straight back out. Why not.
It would still be terrifying without the unavoidable, irritating and worthless death.
This is where my whole "paint the mobs on the wall of the zone" concept comes in that I mentioned earlier in this thread.
In Origanal EQ the mobs stopped at the zone line (actually when the agroed player zoned out causing them to lose agro).
Another possable system would be to simply have mobs stop slightly before the zone line, say they never came withing X distance of the zone line. Whether it be Trained or Pulled.
I suspect this won't be as big an issue as we think it will be. With bigger zones and more thoughtful zonelines i suspect that zoneline deaths will either be from intentional griefing (PVP) or random bad luck or part of the zone-in design. This will be nothing like EQ1 and the many poorly structured zonelines. Even the newer/revamped zonelines from recent expansions have better structure than some of the originals.
That being said.... i hope there are similar experiences to Plane of Fear or Plane of Growth where the zone-in is not safe. Those were some of the most memorable experiences to me... Risk vs. Reward.
kreed99 said:I suspect this won't be as big an issue as we think it will be. With bigger zones and more thoughtful zonelines i suspect that zoneline deaths will either be from intentional griefing (PVP) or random bad luck or part of the zone-in design. This will be nothing like EQ1 and the many poorly structured zonelines. Even the newer/revamped zonelines from recent expansions have better structure than some of the originals.
That being said.... i hope there are similar experiences to Plane of Fear or Plane of Growth where the zone-in is not safe. Those were some of the most memorable experiences to me... Risk vs. Reward.
Another reason that this may be a smaller issue is because they've mentioned that there won't be artifical choke points at the zone lines. So, for instance, if you're in a big wide open outside area, you won't be funneled to a small choke point to zone. It will be interesting to see how they really handle zoning in large areas.
That said, I still am a fan of my idea where if there is something on the other side of the zone line, you should be able to see it on your side of the zone line. You can see the scenery through the zone line, so why not the mobs?