Chanus said:sevnptsixtwo said:I don't care for any of these suggestions. Reading through them gives me the feeling of aggravation instead of just gaming for fun.
Shh! Keep it down! A lot of people here don't like hearing the F-word when talking about a video game!
i know not why i do what i do, but i do what i do just to do.
Nephele said:So, I'm not quite sure what problem we're trying to solve here. At first this thread was about RMT, but lately it seems like the discussion has shifted to inflation and currency pooling in the economy in general.
I think we should all keep some key things in mind when offering up potential solutions:
1) Any time you make an item difficult, challenging, or expensive to obtain in game, there is the potential that some players will resort to RMT to obtain that item. History has shown that this can't be avoided. That doesn't mean that it has to be easy and that there shouldn't be penalties for doing that, but we should never be under the illusion that we're going to be able to stamp the practice out altogether.
2) In order for people to feel economically "successful" while playing, they need to be able to earn more money than they have to spend via normal gameplay. It doesn't have to be a lot more - but it has to be there. If people feel like they are unable to earn money without significantly changing the way they play, they will become bitter and resentful because of that. Due to this, we must accept that there will always probably be some level of currency pooling occurring.
3) Money sinks that target only a specific portion of the playerbase or a specific activity (such as crafting) are generally not effective in the long term. At best, they will slow down that set of players (or force them to raise the prices they charge everyone else). At worst, they will actively drive players away from that activity by making it something that's simply not fun to do for many of them.
I have my own opinions (obviously) on what works and what doesn't in terms of money sinks but I just wanted to point these three things out for now, because they're more or less universal truths that I think apply here. It doesn't mean that there can't or shouldn't be controls on money and the economy, but it means that care must be taken if you want those things to help the game rather than harm it.
Nephele said:So, I'm not quite sure what problem we're trying to solve here. At first this thread was about RMT, but lately it seems like the discussion has shifted to inflation and currency pooling in the economy in general.
I think we should all keep some key things in mind when offering up potential solutions:
1) Any time you make an item difficult, challenging, or expensive to obtain in game, there is the potential that some players will resort to RMT to obtain that item. History has shown that this can't be avoided. That doesn't mean that it has to be easy and that there shouldn't be penalties for doing that, but we should never be under the illusion that we're going to be able to stamp the practice out altogether.
2) In order for people to feel economically "successful" while playing, they need to be able to earn more money than they have to spend via normal gameplay. It doesn't have to be a lot more - but it has to be there. If people feel like they are unable to earn money without significantly changing the way they play, they will become bitter and resentful because of that. Due to this, we must accept that there will always probably be some level of currency pooling occurring.
3) Money sinks that target only a specific portion of the playerbase or a specific activity (such as crafting) are generally not effective in the long term. At best, they will slow down that set of players (or force them to raise the prices they charge everyone else). At worst, they will actively drive players away from that activity by making it something that's simply not fun to do for many of them.
I have my own opinions (obviously) on what works and what doesn't in terms of money sinks but I just wanted to point these three things out for now, because they're more or less universal truths that I think apply here. It doesn't mean that there can't or shouldn't be controls on money and the economy, but it means that care must be taken if you want those things to help the game rather than harm it.
They directly have to do with each other.
Ashreon said:Nephele said:
It's called IP-banning. It's horrendously effective. Blizzard Activision used to do it, they stopped doing it. I don't know why. Probably to cut costs of their customer service.
I remember moving out from home and to my new dorm room, I was all ready and trembling to try out this new thing called Fiber Optic internet in Warcraft III TFT. To my horror the previous tennant of the room had been IP banned. It took me one e-mail and some proof of change of tennant and it was lifted.
I know that it is "unfair" if your dynamic IP changes, but an effective repeal system would lift this issue - besides the vast majority of IPs are more or less static even if they are dynamic as they are leased for a certain period and then renewed if they are continously used by said household. Rarely do the ISPs actually give you a brand new IP.
RMTs would quite quickly be barred from the game with this system.
Secondly, chat spy's that look for certain phrases which they always use and then ban them accordingly (temporarily or permanently) is also effective.
Third of all anti-cheat software which is developed from the ground up that detects code injections and accordingly suspend the account in question until proven guilty/not guilty of cheating. In cases of guilty it leads to permanent ban of said account and/or IP banning (but not permanent so that in cases of dynamic IP it can be lifted).
Fourth of all software to detect third party programs to prevent botting, certain softwares can be green listed to allow for multi boxing purposes others can be blacklisted. BUT BUT BUT!! They would have to spy on my PC then. Yes, yes they would and you would probably agree to that in their ToS/EULA etc. Google, Facebook, Twitter, Apple, Samsung, Microsoft etc. all spy on you already, you've just given your consent to them spying on you (not that you have a choice).
Fifth of all. Player report system that actually logs said reported message in question as well as links to the player logs for a GM to go through and ban/not ban accordingly.
Most of the time RMTs are rampant, because they, the Companies developing the game, does not actually lose much of anything. The reason why they bother to do anything about it is the potential loss of players if players didn't care you can be sure the companies developing wouldn't care either.
this is some good stuff here. let me make sure i understand you. activision blizzard were shanking currency exchangers, but they stopped because activision said: yo we can be the currency exchangers, *cough wow game time tokens cough*
i defer second point to my boy chanus. we got pencils. how many pencils you need? a no3 or a no7?
point 3 i can get behind it. an ai pantheon police would be pretty good.
point 4 insert mark zuckerberg facebook meme
point 5 i think i'm against this? well i guess it doesn't matter to me. i can kill rmt characters on pvp servers sooo XD
Syrif said:Chanus said:Didn't they say in one of the streams that coin wouldn't have weight because of things like griefing by handing a player so much copper they can no longer move?
Even if coin isn’t counted as weight, it can still be capped as to how much each character can hold at a time; making banks a useful tool (with a fee that scales to amount).
Players with little coin aren’t punished, and such a system makes it more difficult for RMT and exploitation of market. Mind you, it doesn’t eliminate the problem but it sure helps.
no.
why would I be punished for having more money then someone else? That makes 0 sense. If I'm willing to put the brain dead effort into farming mobs for coin, or if I spreadsheet hard and play the marketplace, or invest heavily into lifeskills and turn large profits, why am I being punished? Why am I being taxed more then the casual or new player who just does whatever? more work shouldn't equal less money.
Rakan said:Syrif said:Chanus said:Didn't they say in one of the streams that coin wouldn't have weight because of things like griefing by handing a player so much copper they can no longer move?
Even if coin isn’t counted as weight, it can still be capped as to how much each character can hold at a time; making banks a useful tool (with a fee that scales to amount).
Players with little coin aren’t punished, and such a system makes it more difficult for RMT and exploitation of market. Mind you, it doesn’t eliminate the problem but it sure helps.
no.
why would I be punished for having more money then someone else? That makes 0 sense. If I'm willing to put the brain dead effort into farming mobs for coin, or if I spreadsheet hard and play the marketplace, or invest heavily into lifeskills and turn large profits, why am I being punished? Why am I being taxed more then the casual or new player who just does whatever? more work shouldn't equal less money.
Yes.
I’m talking about enormous levels that exploit and/or RMT the market. The enormous fees would scale to enormous amounts of coin. This doesn’t have to be the exact system obviously, but there had better be a system in place that at least addresses exploitation and RMT.. Rakan. And I’m sorry, but not even you should have the power to exploit the market regardless of how much time you want to put into it.
Since the game isn't finished, it's better to discuss / implement / test in pre-alpha than after release.
Having items last 2-3 years with 20-30 hours per weeek every week use ...are you really all terrified of that happening that you will be useless without your 3+ year old item ?
Soulbound items like every other game is the same as 100 % immediate item damage, except for you.
When items exist in perpetuity and are tradeable, item deflation becomes a thing, and I think that's worse than money inflation. There is an unlimited supply of money, you just have to put in the time, the game generates infinite money.
Items sitting in your bank should last in perpetuity if unused. (not sure what to think about food / drink)
There is some realism / cost to using things, it makes you think plan and hunt for backups, a reason to revisit areas possibly.
Currently, a number of games attach player name to crafted items. If Dark age of Camelot in 2001 could track traded items with durability and condition (and crafter), no reason Pantheon cannot.
a peice of armor 20 % beaten down could still be good, just not as good as it could be. it adds variance and a money sink on use.
Also, it makes crafting as a side business have a 2nd use beyong creation : it can also be used for repair. Great for those who have 30-60 minutes to spare but not enough to find a group and travel somewhere. Service for all, builds community (adding crafters to friends lists ?)
Euther said:Since the game isn't finished, it's better to discuss / implement / test in pre-alpha than after release.
Having items last 2-3 years with 20-30 hours per weeek every week use ...are you really all terrified of that happening that you will be useless without your 3+ year old item ?
Soulbound items like every other game is the same as 100 % immediate item damage, except for you.
When items exist in perpetuity and are tradeable, item deflation becomes a thing, and I think that's worse than money inflation. There is an unlimited supply of money, you just have to put in the time, the game generates infinite money.
Items sitting in your bank should last in perpetuity if unused. (not sure what to think about food / drink)
There is some realism / cost to using things, it makes you think plan and hunt for backups, a reason to revisit areas possibly.
Currently, a number of games attach player name to crafted items. If Dark age of Camelot in 2001 could track traded items with durability and condition (and crafter), no reason Pantheon cannot.
a peice of armor 20 % beaten down could still be good, just not as good as it could be. it adds variance and a money sink on use.
Also, it makes crafting as a side business have a 2nd use beyong creation : it can also be used for repair. Great for those who have 30-60 minutes to spare but not enough to find a group and travel somewhere. Service for all, builds community (adding crafters to friends lists ?)
Its storage space, which costs money. WHy would inactive account be kept forever?
We will not delete old account unless necessary, in which case we will notify the players who own them before we do.
We will not sell or auction anything.
We will not have item degradation in Pantheon and have been clear on this (as per Brad).
RMT has been discussed to death, this is not the place for it.
This thread has gone so far off-topic I am just going to close it. Please do not create posts like this again unless you search beforehand.