I've been playing EQ since 2000. I'm not in a high-end raiding guild but we do have fun testing out the raids. One of the things I began to detest about EQ was the eventual march into using macro's in game or macro utilities to be the "best dps" or as our tanks put it, "when i engage I need to enable 11 different buttons just to survive being hit for 70K."
The casters have bags of clickies they put into their macro feed for an extra 10% here, 5% focus here, epic click here ect.. To me, this has ruined the end-game play. When I'm told (as a Necro) that pulling 262K DPS against Doomfire is "good but not great" and a guild member wants to help me "with your macros" the game has become less about having fun that it did.
Do the developers see this as a future for Pantheon? As expansions go will there be "just more AA's" to buy to get more skills which in a fight become impossible for a person to control and have to resort to macros to play?
It''s what I hate about using Gina. When the boss encounters require it as there are 9 different things you need to be aware of (event wise) it kinda ruins the gameplay.
Maybe I'm just old...
I agree entirely - then again I certainly am not *young*.
Macros for chat do not hurt the game and can be a very nice feature.
But in combat I see little that is enjoyable in clicking a macro, then a minute later clicking another macro (or worse the same one) etc. I do not want success to be based on skill at macro writing. Abilities should be manually activated one at a time as the situation warrents. Combat should involve thinking and judgment. Success should go to those that use the correct abilities at the correct times for the situation they face not just the young whippersnappers with the reflexes to click an icon or macro three tenths of a second faster than most of us. All Gods curse "action combat".
Agreed. When the challenge becomes how expert you are at configuring the UI, the game has failed.
I'm not sure I'm wholly against the need for timely reflexes, though.
As long as it's more a matter of activating an ability at the right moment to coordinate with a monster's vulnerable moment or an attack or to synegise with a group member's ability and not just pounding keys in response to coloured telegraphs like Dance Dance Revolution: RPG version, then I'm fine with needing 'reflexes'.
But, yeah, if we wind up needing third party UI tools just to cope, I'm not going to be interested in raids, etc. (I'm against third party tools for this reason - they become de facto and so, any content that doesn't 'need' them is trivial if you *do* use them).
I have faith that VR are aware of this and will avoid those pitfalls. I'm sure I've seen official comment to that effect.
Trust In Pantheon.
Yep, I'm in total agreement here. I'm absolutely not a fan of ability macros or third party add-ons, and definitely don't want to see the sort of scenario you describe from EQ happen in Pantheon. From everything the devs have said, I think this would be the sort of thing they would want to keep an eye on so it doesn't get out of hand...or hopefully happen at all.
Macros will be in game but I haven't heard VR say there are plans to restrict them. There has been mention of 3rd party programs not being allowed so that helps a bit but doesn't solve the issue.
Power creep is inevitable to some extent. We will all have bags of clickies after awhile.
There seems to be a larger issue here that the OP doesn't like the play style that the guild he is in wants him to play. I understand wanting to eliminate the possibility of that happening here in the future but it seems there is another easy solution in finding a group of people who aren't as nit picky about your macro use.
Macros were quite an innovative part of EQ, something to be celebrated. Most here will remember chain heals and the endless, perfectly timed macros which made possible some last split second healing.
I understand the concern though, when macros are used to squeeze every last bit of dps out of a group in can lead to elitism, which is frustrating.
I think there is a distinction between using macros for fun, communication and timing and using macros in an elitist, exclusive way. I'm not sure what that distinction is, but one is fun and one is not.
Blood
Sugusto said:I've been playing EQ since 2000. I'm not in a high-end raiding guild but we do have fun testing out the raids. One of the things I began to detest about EQ was the eventual march into using macro's in game or macro utilities to be the "best dps" or as our tanks put it, "when i engage I need to enable 11 different buttons just to survive being hit for 70K."
The casters have bags of clickies they put into their macro feed for an extra 10% here, 5% focus here, epic click here ect.. To me, this has ruined the end-game play. When I'm told (as a Necro) that pulling 262K DPS against Doomfire is "good but not great" and a guild member wants to help me "with your macros" the game has become less about having fun that it did.Do the developers see this as a future for Pantheon? As expansions go will there be "just more AA's" to buy to get more skills which in a fight become impossible for a person to control and have to resort to macros to play?
It''s what I hate about using Gina. When the boss encounters require it as there are 9 different things you need to be aware of (event wise) it kinda ruins the gameplay.
Maybe I'm just old...
I think part of this concern is regarding all of the different game play mechanics that have been added to EQ over the years. Many different people have led the design of the game and have continually added new features. Now that all of these mechanics are in, the developers have no choice but to consider them when building content. Therefore, they are required in order to consume the content. Is there a solution? Well to EQ, no, but to a new game it’s possible to try and avoid these mistakes.
To avoid this in new games, you could try to focus on sticking with your targeted playstyle. Don’t add features for the sake of adding new features if it moves the needle away from what you are trying to accomplish with the game. I think many developers fall into this pit, where they feel they have to keep adding features where no new features are needed. You’re digging a bigger hole to try and escape the hole you’re already in.
Another issue is with clicky items. I like clicky items, but are clicky items healthy for the game? Having one or two isn’t going to hurt anything. 15 years later, having a 40-slot bag full that you need? Probably unhealthy. Simply require that all items with effects be worn in order to utilize the abilities. That would resolve the clicky’s issue while allowing developers freedom to move on from the items. Eventually the item will be so underpowered, whatever benefit it once provided will be negligible since you must sacrifice something much better to use it. EQ doesn’t require you to sacrifice anything to use clickies.
Bloodfire said:... chain heals and the endless, perfectly timed macros which made possible some last split second healing.
I understand the concern though, when macros are used to squeeze every last bit of dps out of a group in can lead to elitism,....
I think there is a distinction between using macros for fun, communication and timing and using macros in an elitist, exclusive way. ...
I view chain heal macros exactly the same as DPS macros. One os for a DPS-er and one for a healer. It lets them time things so they can do more of their job through automation and perfect timing, rather than fun and skill.
I agree with the OP and am against any kind of automation and we need to be careful of gaming keyboards that you can program actions with, or outside keystroke macro software, etc.
These things are another layer in between the player and their character that removes them from being immersed in the virtual world and, instead, reminds them they are sitting in front of a console playing a computer game.
I don't mind macros, as long as they aren't capable to pretty much doing everything in a single click.
What I don't like are the min/maxers that insist on telling me how I am going to play. I'll listen to your advice, but don't tell me how to play my character. I play for entertainment, and part of that is doing things on my own, my own way.
Like a true craftsmen could use power tools to build something, but sometimes, there is a pride and therapy in doing things by hand.
From the FAQ:
10.5 Will players be able to make ‘macros’?
There will be plenty of / (slash) commands that players can assign to hot keys. Likewise, the GUI will be customizable. However, players will not be able to create hotkeys that automate playing their character nor chain a long list of commands together.
Bard is simple just have a “melody” skill weaving option. So you can weave a certain amount of songs based on how “epic” your skill of song weaving is. Many skills will allow a click to activate and use while you have resources... see rogue shadow walk. So you have a passive skill song weaving that is upgradable and some cool song combos. At least thats how i would implement a bard.
We do not need one button, one button to rule them all. I prefer clicking or using hotkeys for specific spell/abilities. To me using macros(even if allowed) to cast spells or even simplify something like casting then sitting then pausing then casting. I dont like it. When i see raids in EQ and people are running the CH chain and they keep adjusting do pause 20 or do pause 10. I dont like that one bit. What i want to see is a one line simple formated Incoming %T or casting blah blah on %T. We dont need 5 lines for / commands if i had to vote i would say one line and one / command per line so.... “Casting on %T“ /ability 1
To me it's not macros that are the problem. Macros can be good, and fun. They can be helpful, and informative to people as well. To me, the problems really boil down to 2 issues.
First, there should never be any abiltiy you ALWAYS want to use every time it is off of cool down. Any ability that is that good, will have a spot at the front of a macro. Instead I'd like to see ability selection matter. Making damage types matter is one way of doing this. Also, using mana cost and decent durations of effects are another way of doing this. Few times do people want to reuse an ability if the first time they used it still has lingering effects.
Second, /pause. This type of option should not exist. There are too many abuses and not enough benefits. adding specific time delays allows you to have complete heal chains, shave milliseconds off of time between castings, be prewarned of mes durations ending, etc. If pause can be used in a macro it will not be good for the health of the game.