Forums » Crafting

Salvaging

    • 1229 posts
    January 17, 2018 9:31 AM PST

    According to the newletter, Jan. I have a question on this.

    Can for example, does Salvaging skill go based off the type of item you are breaking down?

    Take a woodworker, should they be able to breakdown wood related items as efficently as say armor as they arn't a blacksmith?

    Will Salvaging be a seperate skill able to break down all items or will you need to have the skill in the appropriate tradskill?

    • 208 posts
    January 17, 2018 9:41 AM PST

    That's a good question. Hopefully we get an answer.

    Would be silly for salvagers to just break everything down. Unless that's the only thing they can focus on as a crafter. Selling materials to other crafters to have stuff made for them.

    Unless its like a harvesting skill that anyone can have. Then maybe it would make more sense to only make a specific salvaging skill or kit that is specific to a tradeskill. Otherwise the market place is just gonna be flooded with items that everyone is receiving for salvaging gear/weapons.

    I assume they already thought this through and probably have an idea. We just don't know what it is yet.

    • 110 posts
    January 17, 2018 9:47 AM PST

    I would guess that salvaging would be part of your trade skill. So if you are a blacksmith you can salvage metal based armour but not leather while a leather worker could salvage leather based armour but not metal... If everyone can salvage everything then it would not really make sense and would not promote people working together...


    This post was edited by Kipling at January 17, 2018 9:47 AM PST
    • 1229 posts
    January 17, 2018 9:47 AM PST

    fancy said:

    That's a good question. Hopefully we get an answer.

    Would be silly for salvagers to just break everything down. Unless that's the only thing they can focus on as a crafter. Selling materials to other crafters to have stuff made for them.

    Unless its like a harvesting skill that anyone can have. Then maybe it would make more sense to only make a specific salvaging skill or kit that is specific to a tradeskill. Otherwise the market place is just gonna be flooded with items that everyone is receiving for salvaging gear/weapons.

    I assume they already thought this through and probably have an idea. We just don't know what it is yet.

    Yeap.

    Sure you can take a hammer to something but having knowledge of the process and tools to create the item helps in taking it apart, like saying building a computer and taking a computer apart vs just smashing it on the ground and picking up the little bits lol.

    Even real life salvage operations must have some knowledge on metalworking and electrical issues. I woun't take an accountant and give them a plasma torch and say go take that ship apart lol


    This post was edited by Aich at January 17, 2018 9:48 AM PST
    • 1229 posts
    January 17, 2018 9:48 AM PST

    Kipling said:

    I would guess that salvaging would be part of your trade skill. So if you are a blacksmith you can salvage metal based armour but not leather while a leather worker could salvage leather based armour but not metal... If everyone can salvage everything then it would not really make sense and would not promote people working together...

    I agree, but newsleter wasn't clear so hence the thread. 

    • 1216 posts
    January 17, 2018 10:23 AM PST

    In this thread, iirc, there was some indication either in an article, thread, posting, or stream that there would only be one tradeskill per player.

    I don't think VR has ever confirmed this (one tradeskill per player) and it's not in the FAQ, but obviously it has implications for the number of players/account, or number of acounts per player, depending on design goals.

    As far as salvaging, there's also no confirmation or denial in anything I can find that indicates you would be limited or restricted to one or many harvesting skills.  They seem to be pretty keen on trying the failed experiment of EQ2 crafting interdependency, though, so if that's still true, it may be as bad as 1 tradeskill and one harvesting skill per player, or even 1 tradeskill OR one harvesting skill per player.

    • 1229 posts
    January 17, 2018 10:32 AM PST

    vjek said:

    In this thread, iirc, there was some indication either in an article, thread, posting, or stream that there would only be one tradeskill per player.

    I don't think VR has ever confirmed this (one tradeskill per player) and it's not in the FAQ, but obviously it has implications for the number of players/account, or number of acounts per player, depending on design goals.

    As far as salvaging, there's also no confirmation or denial in anything I can find that indicates you would be limited or restricted to one or many harvesting skills.  They seem to be pretty keen on trying the failed experiment of EQ2 crafting interdependency, though, so if that's still true, it may be as bad as 1 tradeskill and one harvesting skill per player, or even 1 tradeskill OR one harvesting skill per player.

    I'm not talking about limiting harvesting skills, a player should be able to harvest anything. You can learn to fish, mine and skin no problem there but breaking down an existing item as per the newletters says you have to use the appropriate tradeskill workbench to break an item down. If you are a 0 in blacksmithing and 100 woodworking, you shoun't even know how a forge works to even break an item down other then tossing it in and watching it melt into a pile of molten metal.


    This post was edited by Aich at January 17, 2018 10:36 AM PST
    • 1216 posts
    January 17, 2018 10:55 AM PST

    The problem is, in the newsletter, there's no distinction between Salvaging , Woodcutting, Mining, Skinning, or Fishing.

    So either you can master them all, or you can have one.  And there's never been any indication that any harvesting skill would have any bearing on any crafting skill(s).

    I suspect by having  100 in Salvaging, you get everything for all relevant tradeskills by bench.  Just like fishing produces for multiple tradeskills, etc.

    "

    Salvaging

    Want to turn your unwanted items back in to raw ingredients or crafting subcomponents? This is the skill for harvesters that like destroying things!

    Players wanting to work on salvaging will need to get their hands on a salvager's kit and then take their excess armor, weapons, tools, and accessories to an appropriate workstation. Metal goods go to the forge, tailored goods go to the loom, wooden goods go to the woodworker's bench, and jewelry goes to the stonemason's bench.

    Salvagers that are just starting out will find themselves most often receiving raw or broken scraps, bits, and flecks back from their efforts.

    As a salvager gains more skill though they'll be more likely to receive crafting components back such as ingots, bolts of cloth, armor padding, bits of chain, and cut gems and stones.

    Most professions share equally in the yields from salvaging. The exceptions are Alchemists and Provisioners, as separating liquids and foodstuffs is a bit sticky.

    "

    I don't see any of this changing, btw.  I've yet to see a core design decision changed due to forum posts.  So, sure, I mean, ask away, offer feedback, but don't expect it to change.  You're stepping into designer territory and they don't budge easily.

    • 2522 posts
    January 17, 2018 10:59 AM PST

    vjek said:

    In this thread, iirc, there was some indication either in an article, thread, posting, or stream that there would only be one tradeskill per player.

    I don't think VR has ever confirmed this (one tradeskill per player) and it's not in the FAQ, but obviously it has implications for the number of players/account, or number of acounts per player, depending on design goals.

    They said one profession per character in the April 2017 newsletter: "As far as what professions are concerned, we're considering the following as our professions: Alchemist, Blacksmith, Woodworker, Outfitter, Provisioner, Stonemason, and Scribe. Each profession will have a specialization. Players will be limited to one profession, and one associated specialization."

     

    From that same newsletter (which may be old info): "Our line of thinking in terms of access to harvesting is that all players will be able utilize all of the available skills as they wish, provided they have an appropriate harvesting tool. All material types will already be coming from Salvaging and looting materials directly from NPCs, so limiting players’ access to individual skills felt arbitrary. Pantheon’s current harvesting skills are as follows: Fishing, Gathering, Logging, Mining, and Skinning."

     

    So to answer the OP based on the "old" information, Salvaging can be used/leveled up by anyone regardless of if they have any professions or not.

    For example if Gereon wants a Silvered Longsword. He plans to be fighting wererats in the City Underneath in a few days with his guildmates so he has two choices:

    1. Find humanoid NPCs that also have a beef with Lycanthropes, beat them up, and take their stuff.
    2. Find a crafter that has a Silvered Longsword recipe and gather the needed materials (hypothetically speaking, this could be a) acquire an unmodified Longsword, b) acquire silver ingots, and c) acquire a tempering agent).

     

    In this scenario, perhaps Gereon doesn’t have easy access to NPCs that drop Silvered weapons. He has been killing the wrong city’s guards so it is safer and faster for him to find a player to help him out. Crafting gives players like Gereon alternate avenues to acquire those items they need while serving a dual purpose: socializing between players through Economy, and giving players avenues to some solo content (the Crafter or Harvester).

    ...

    Another way Harvesting will come into play is through Salvaging, a method for players to break down existing items and receive components in return. Salvaging items can result in a mix of raw materials and/or crafting components. In our crafting example above with Gareon and his Silvered Longsword, say he’s outgrown the need for the item. He could choose to Salvage it, possibly resulting in silver chunks, a silvered blade, or a hilt.


    This post was edited by Iksar at January 17, 2018 11:02 AM PST
    • 1216 posts
    January 17, 2018 11:06 AM PST

    That one tradeskill per player thing definitely needs to be in the FAQ.  Good recall, Iksar.

    • 110 posts
    January 17, 2018 11:08 AM PST

    I hope we get big bags to carry all the crafting mats we gather then! Although as we will be spending most of our time in groups we will be arguing over sharing all the nodes...

    • 1216 posts
    January 17, 2018 11:12 AM PST

    Well, node visiblity/competition is a whole other ball of wax.  There's a reason GW2 went with crafting inventory and node visiblity the way they did.  Solves a lot of problems.

    • 2522 posts
    January 17, 2018 11:31 AM PST

    I believe an updated FAQ is in the works. At least I seem to recall someone (Brad?) mentioning it.

    • 1688 posts
    January 17, 2018 12:55 PM PST

    vjek said:

    Well, node visiblity/competition is a whole other ball of wax.  There's a reason GW2 went with crafting inventory and node visiblity the way they did.  Solves a lot of problems.

     

    There is a reason, but was it a good choice ? The more you cut every interaction between player, the more the world feels like a SoloRPG in which other players are minding their own business on your screen. Extensive competition can be frustrating, but no competition at all ? All thoses MMO that took shortcuts over shortcuts to make the game easier, faster, less frustrating, accomodated to small and solo individuals, do not seem MMO at all in the end.

    • 1216 posts
    January 17, 2018 1:55 PM PST

    Crafting inventory has nothing to do with player interaction.  I have no interest in "organizing my bags" for the thousandth time.  Give me challenging group content/interaction instead.

    And node competition, with respect to player interaction, was entirely negative, in every game I played that uses(d) such an antiquated system.

    I'm all for player interaction, and group interaction.  But solo racing for harvest nodes, "stealing" harvest nodes, "blocking" harvest nodes, and similar?  I would die happy never doing that again, especially considering there are so many other positive player interactions that can replace it.  Give me group harvesting any day, if that's the solution in Pantheon.

    Convenience features have their place.  Punitive mechanics shrink the target demographic.  There is a grey area where success lies.

    • 3327 posts
    January 17, 2018 2:06 PM PST

    I miss the meaningful harvesting from FFXI.  You know ... where the world was vast, and nodes were spread out in dangerous areas.  It wasn't a matter of people constantly stepping on the toes of other players, but picking and choosing how and where they would spend their time.  Competition is a good thing for MMO's  --  that said, I would be curious to see how group harvesting could work.  The important distinction that I remember from FFXI that separated it's harvesting from any other game was how well risk vs reward was balanced into the equation.  I enjoyed mining in that game ... as a long time hardcore end-game blah blah blah player, this was a very rare treat.  I also enjoyed crafting, and that's because of how awesome the economy was, and how spending a day mining your own ores was actually a choice that held significance.  Risk vs Reward reigns supreme with just about every feature I can think of where it's applicable.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at January 17, 2018 2:07 PM PST
    • 2522 posts
    January 17, 2018 2:19 PM PST

    Not sure node competition is a bad thing. I imagine every game you have played that used it also had a HUD map that also showed nearby harvest nodes? Without a map or any such guidance it will be much harder for someone to just snipe nodes or race from one node to the next. On top of which everything (or almost) that can come from a node can also come from mob drops or salvaging.

    • 1216 posts
    January 17, 2018 3:37 PM PST

    Iksar said: Not sure node competition is a bad thing. I imagine every game you have played that used it also had a HUD map that also showed nearby harvest nodes? ...

    No, they didn't.  But it doesn't matter if they do or don't, because node locations are trivially mapped and/or memorized after a few hours harvesting.  Would be nice if someone had truly randomly placed harvest nodes, in 2019, or used a superior system to "spawn here: X,Y,Z".
    Once again, there are so many superior simple systems that offer so much positive player interaction, environment interaction, and internally consistent thematic experience.. and once again, no-one uses them.  Sad.

    But yes, the fact that most/all harvestable resources come from mobs AS WELL is the one saving grace in this area for Pantheon.  Hopefully they do it right and don't miss a harvestable type.. like some other games did..


    This post was edited by vjek at January 17, 2018 3:38 PM PST
    • 1229 posts
    January 17, 2018 3:39 PM PST

    I didn't know this thread was about node placement or even nodes in general...........................back on track please.


    This post was edited by Aich at January 17, 2018 3:39 PM PST
    • 2522 posts
    January 17, 2018 3:54 PM PST

    Zeem said:

    I didn't know this thread was about node placement or even nodes in general...........................back on track please.

    There is no track left to run on for the original question. 

    • Moderator
    • 8694 posts
    January 17, 2018 8:05 PM PST

    Moved to Crafting as it relates to harvesting and crafting mats.

    • 1515 posts
    January 17, 2018 10:49 PM PST

    So, my thoughts:

    Crafting professions - I agree with and support the stated direction to make crafting profession choice exclusive.  I'd be ok with a "pick two" system, but I feel like allowing crafters to do everything on the same character leads to people not interacting.  I say that as a person who would do exactly that, given the chance.

    Gathering professions - I'm ok with the stated direction as well.  I'd be willing to accept exclusivity here, but given the reasoning that was stated in April, I'm ok with it either way.  My larger concern with gathering is that it has some depth and progression to it, which it sounds like it does from the January newsletter.

    Salvaging - Based on the January newsletter I actually like where salvaging is heading.  In another thread, Cromulent and I talked about how new crafting recipes might be learned.  Salvaging seems like a great way to do that, as well as a good way to keep markets from getting flooded with cheap looted gear and help keep crafted equipment viable.  The devil is in the details and implementation will be key but in concept it seems like a good way to go to me.  The newsletter did mention using the appropriate crafting station, so I would not be surprised to see salvaging linked to a tradeskill as well.  It would make sense if it ends up getting used as a recipe generator.

    Node placement - The information we have would seem to point to nodes being placed in areas where the thing they have would be naturally occuring, so I think to an extent this actually fulfills the desire to have higher-level/more exotic nodes in more dangerous places.  After all, everyone knows that veins of mythril attract all manner of nasty things.  Personally, I also hope that this will mean that nodes are spread out in the areas where they are found.  One of my gripes about the vast majority of games with harvesting nodes (minimap or not), is that usually there's a single set of 4-6 nodes of any given type all in one tight little cluster, which makes it really easy for gatherers to just do a "loop" and accumulate massive piles of whatever it is.  I would much rather see nodes spawning randomly within wider areas, and far more of them than just 4-6, so that the gathering experience is more organic and can support more harvesters simultaneously.

    I'll also say that I don't think a minimap is a great idea BUT there needs to be a way for a harvester to "spot" a nearby node - especially plant and tree nodes.  If you're running through a forest and only some trees are harvestable you need to have some way to tell which ones without being right next to it and realizing that it's clickable.  Otherwise if you happen to be in a "dead" area with no harvestable trees you'll get frustrated really quickly.  That being said, Vanguard pulled this off pretty well (even if all their nodes were in tight little loops), so it should be doable without breaking immersion.

    On competition for nodes - I think this really depends on how many nodes there are going to be in any given area or of a given type.  It's really important that the game be able to support multiple harvesters going after the same things simultaneously in the same areas.  If they're all racing each other from node to node, that will be a very poor experience for most of the players involved - spawn racing for harvesting nodes is honestly NOT fun, especially not for really basic resources that you likely need lots and lots of in crafting.  However, if there's "enough" nodes to make it so that a player could simply move to the other side of the river to get a better chance to harvest what they need, or something - then it might be ok.  The key really is in the placement and quantity of those nodes within zones.  I will say that if nodes are competable, then group harvesting similar to Vanguard really needs to be implemented.  The reason for this is that it allows harvesters to band together and share the proceeds of their gathering expeditions (instead of competing) and still feel like it was a good yield for their time investment at the end of it.

    So that was a lot but hopefully it all makes sense :)

     

    • 582 posts
    January 18, 2018 8:52 AM PST

    oneADseven said:

    I miss the meaningful harvesting from FFXI.  You know ... where the world was vast, and nodes were spread out in dangerous areas.  It wasn't a matter of people constantly stepping on the toes of other players, but picking and choosing how and where they would spend their time.  Competition is a good thing for MMO's  --  that said, I would be curious to see how group harvesting could work.  The important distinction that I remember from FFXI that separated it's harvesting from any other game was how well risk vs reward was balanced into the equation.  I enjoyed mining in that game ... as a long time hardcore end-game blah blah blah player, this was a very rare treat.  I also enjoyed crafting, and that's because of how awesome the economy was, and how spending a day mining your own ores was actually a choice that held significance.  Risk vs Reward reigns supreme with just about every feature I can think of where it's applicable.

    FFXIV had meaningful harvesting? You had nodes in mob areas but you also had invisibility so you rarely if ever were attacked. There was a small mini game with it if you wanted/needed to use it but unless it was special nodes you usually didnt even bother when farming materials. There really was nothing special about the gathering in FFXIV. The crafting was different than most but not the gathering

    • 1688 posts
    January 18, 2018 10:33 AM PST

    Enitzu said:

    oneADseven said:

    I miss the meaningful harvesting from FFXI.  You know ... where the world was vast, and nodes were spread out in dangerous areas.  It wasn't a matter of people constantly stepping on the toes of other players, but picking and choosing how and where they would spend their time.  Competition is a good thing for MMO's  --  that said, I would be curious to see how group harvesting could work.  The important distinction that I remember from FFXI that separated it's harvesting from any other game was how well risk vs reward was balanced into the equation.  I enjoyed mining in that game ... as a long time hardcore end-game blah blah blah player, this was a very rare treat.  I also enjoyed crafting, and that's because of how awesome the economy was, and how spending a day mining your own ores was actually a choice that held significance.  Risk vs Reward reigns supreme with just about every feature I can think of where it's applicable.

    FFXIV had meaningful harvesting? You had nodes in mob areas but you also had invisibility so you rarely if ever were attacked. There was a small mini game with it if you wanted/needed to use it but unless it was special nodes you usually didnt even bother when farming materials. There really was nothing special about the gathering in FFXIV. The crafting was different than most but not the gathering

     

    The collection system is "interesting", yet not enough to make it great and appreciable.

    • 1515 posts
    January 18, 2018 11:25 AM PST

    FFXI and FFXIV are two different games :). OneADSeven was talking about the former game.