Liav said:We're talking about artificially lengthening the grind several times over classic EQ
This is not accurate. Are you using p99 as a reference? Is that why the discrepancy? The lvl curve in P99 is quickened compared to original EQ for a number of reason...only a very tiny, minor one of those reasons being what was stated in that: "A lot of the reason it took people so long to level in EQ is because it was new". So tiny of a factor that it can hardly be used as a valid example. Definitely not "A lot of the reason".
I don't want to beat the horse about the differences between early EQ and P99...but we aren't lengthening the leveling time compared to EQ as much as you seem to be implying. Definitely not "several times" longer.
I'm not necessarily using P99 as reference. I guess I have no way to prove that player experience is heavily influential in leveling speed, so I'll just drop it.
Either way, taking a year or more to hit max as a casual is an unreasonable expectation if this game is to survive.
Most modern mmo's are about the Destination ( max level ) not the journey.. EQ was all about the Journey.
Pantheon Seems to be going back to the EQ way of doing things, So i hope leveling is meaningful.
If the Journey to max level is fulfilling, and eventful enough, with more than enough to do, then being very slow to get to max level wont matter.
IMHO most modern mmo's are fast leveling because they do not have enough to do on the way to max level they have Geared their games to be Max level focused with mostly Raids, dungeon crawls and daily quests.
If Pantheon is more focused on the Leveling experience rather than endgame only focused, then being very slow leveling pace wont matter because people will be Enjoying themselves.
Liav said:Either way, taking a year or more to hit max as a casual is an unreasonable expectation if this game is to survive.
Could be in this day and age. There were plenty of casual players that took a year+ to hit max in early EQ (heck, there were players who never did because of the exp penalty).
I tend to think that those casual players have never been the target demographic of Pantheon. That is the niche this game has always been focused away from. If we need the casual players in order for this game to survive it is doomed before it ever started. That goes against a lot of the foundation of what Pantheon is based on.
So to try and stop a post from spining from the subject ........
VR surley have enough experience to figure out where and how to proceed with this sooooo many factor's is involved one among them what Liav said and the other 3 kind of player
"Fast track to end game"
"I will take my time"
and
"I whant to experience every race and class"
To balance these 3 and maybe more types is a tricka and still be able to fit Brad's vision in aswell even more so.I dont think there is 1 solution to this and for my part i think i would prefer a modell where xp might have dimnishing effect involved calculated with the amount of xp you earned since last break/rest THIS is just my personal opinion then you can consider diffrent play styles and add them to the calculation depending on the way we play ex altoholic (like me) alot of loggin/out , HC player less amount break/loggoff and casual player with long logged off time . Use these parametars and VR may come up with a nice xp progression (I hope) ;) now i hope this dont start to upset anyone i just what to present some constructiv ide wich may be of use and ther alot of smarter members on this forum so i hope better ide's for this subject will show up.
philo said:Liav said:Either way, taking a year or more to hit max as a casual is an unreasonable expectation if this game is to survive.
Could be in this day and age. There were plenty of casual players that took a year+ to hit max in early EQ (heck, there were players who never did because of the exp penalty).
I tend to think that those casual players have never been the target demographic of Pantheon. That is the niche this game has always been focused away from. If we need the casual players in order for this game to survive it is doomed before it ever started. That goes against a lot of the foundation of what Pantheon is based on.
There is another side to it too... taking Liav's claim at face value, that some might leave simply because the curve is too long. Well, the other side of that is that if people level too fast (or even level at a moderate pace) and there is no new content in site... they might leave rather than wait for that content.
I think both are valid arguments - i.e. Liav isn't wrong, some likely WOULD leave. But others would stay becuase of that long curve, etc...
When I first played EverQuest it took me around a month to hit level 50 and I considered myself a hardcore casual player. When I reached that level cap it was only then people wanted me in there guilds and I moved into a more hardcore raider type player. In Everquest ][ it again took me about a month to hit level cap, but this time I was already in a guild and cliche where the thing then. When I left to play World of Warcraft about 4 years after it started it took me about two months to get to level cap (Lich King era) and only reason it took me that extra month was constantly being ganked because I rolled on a player vs. player server. When the last MMORPG came out that I played Star Wars: The Old Republic, it took me about a month to hit level cap. I also level 21 more alts before I left the game all level capped and considered myself a hardcore casual player. On every main character I would do a /played and it was just nuts that I would have on average 800 days logged in.
Niche is understandable but niche is a matter of degrees, too. How long of a leveling experience will a sufficiently large playerbase tolerate? Those of us on the forums can say what we personally think but we're a tiny fraction of the number eventual players.
Do we target the fastest people and let the casuals fall where they may, or do we aim for the casuals? Somewhere in the middle? Realistically we just need to pick one. However, if you count degenerate madness like people account sharing to maximize playtime during the initial push, you could easily have people leveling 5x faster than the average.
There's no right or wrong way to answer the question, I guess.
Liav said:I want it to take a long time. At the same time, Pantheon needs to succeed as a game. A lot of the reason it took people so long to level in EQ is because it was new. Now we have gamers with almost two decades of experience playing similar games. We're talking about artificially lengthening the grind several times over classic EQ as a means to "erase" people's experience playing MMOs.
I'm down for a really long xp curve, I'm just saying that 1 month for the most hardcore could easily balloon up to 6 months for some casuals. Is that not long enough?
EQ was new, but IMO the only reason someone could log into EQ today and level faster than before (negating any xp changes), is that we know how and where to get the best xp, and they would probably be more focused on leveling, and less about the social part of the game. Add in that loot that was considered awesome in the first year became easily accessible and cheap to speed the leveling experience to later generations.
Put someone in EQ that has never played it before and they will take close to what it did for anyone back in the old days, maybe slightly faster since the basics of gaming are known to most now, and back in 99 '00 many were just experiencing their first MMo.
Leveling speed comes down to how much xp can a player expect to acquire per hour. And that is controlled by the difficulty of the mobs, the AI, and the xp per kill.
Some players will maximize that xp, and other will just play a massive amount of hours per day, but in the end the hours/days played to max level should be relatively close for most players.
These type of threads concern me because I feel like we are putting an arbritrary number on what has a ton of variables. I don't mind a good long leveling system, but if those guys that race to the end and demand new content end up pushing content releases at a rate that the general population cannot keep up with, eventually people will get tired of chasing a moving finish line.
While I understand the need to put emphasis on the journey and make people spend more than a couple hours in each zone... I also think that artificially putting a time sink on basic progression in the game does not benefit those who are good players. It just ends up benefitting those with the most time on their hands. You already have that benefit in end game content that the casual guy should never get to see (Yes, I said that the casual player should not get to see raid content, and I am probably considered a casual). But, now you want to make sure he can't reach max level either? Remember that most of the extending casual leveling time is because of wandering... chasing butteflies... crafting... seeing what is behind x rock... not taking the optimal path... tonight I think I want to level in South Karana and see what that is like... so spend an hour running there and no one else is there to group with... /sigh... rogue gate... "hey want a group in lake rathetear?" ... you get the idea. I actually LOVE that part of the leveling process. If you tell me that I have to spend a year doing nothing but guk and seb if I want to ding 50..... you can keep it.
Don't get me wrong. Make it a journey... but if I only *lol* play 2-3 hours a day, I shouldn't have to put my nose to the grindstone and do nothing but leveling for over a year to reach max level... it isn't a game. That's a part time job.
Liav said:
Do we target the fastest people and let the casuals fall where they may, or do we aim for the casuals? Somewhere in the middle? Realistically we just need to pick one.
All need to be taken into account. That was already mentioned. Otherwise you aren't getting a good representation of the playerbase. By picking one you miss the big picture. haha I'm so used to repeating myself talking to you.
Rubezahl said:These type of threads concern me because I feel like we are putting an arbritrary number on what has a ton of variables. I don't mind a good long leveling system, but if those guys that race to the end and demand new content end up pushing content releases at a rate that the general population cannot keep up with, eventually people will get tired of chasing a moving finish line.
Don't get me wrong. Make it a journey... but if I only *lol* play 2-3 hours a day, I shouldn't have to put my nose to the grindstone and do nothing but leveling for over a year to reach max level... it isn't a game. That's a part time job.
There is no "finish line" unless you run out of content. Hopefully systems like progeny or AA will be instated to stall the "running out of content" line. All of the content will be there for everyone in their own time. It doesn't go anywhere. (assuming it isn't implemented like sleepers...but that is an outlier.)
Wandidar said:There is another side to it too... taking Liav's claim at face value, that some might leave simply because the curve is too long. Well, the other side of that is that if people level too fast (or even level at a moderate pace) and there is no new content in site... they might leave rather than wait for that content.
I think both are valid arguments - i.e. Liav isn't wrong, some likely WOULD leave. But others would stay becuase of that long curve, etc...
Yep, its a given (Liav and I addressed that on the previous page): "If VR delivers on their promises there will definitely be casual players, and players who haven't experienced challenging gameplay, who try the game and find it is not for them. It is inevitable." ...For a number of reasons..length of leveling being one.
But I don't think those players are part of the equation...making the assumption that VR is sticking to their original vision. Which is under question a bit at this point so take it for what its worth. " If we need the casual players in order for this game to survive it is doomed before it ever started. That goes against a lot of the foundation of what Pantheon is based on."
I think the curve should be long. Maybe 400+ hours played time. I think people should slow a little and enjoy the game world. But you will always have the people who want to race through and be able to say " I was first to get here" etc. But they missed so much content that they really did not enjoy the game. Also you will have the gold spammers who are here to make coin to sell rather than enjoy the game. I can ensure you I will probably be the last one to level.
I hope there is a way to catch the people who all of a sudden go from having 60 gold to 560 gold in a flash. I know it is a money maker to some cultures but it takes the fairness out of the game for everyone else to have most of the high level areas mobbed by people only out to get the cash for selling.
when you need to race to the finish you miss a lot. The people who will play early and look for the fastest way to level are only cheating themselves out of a wonderfull experience. Sure they can go back to the lower levels and catch up but they will be so overpowered that the enjoyment will be gone.
So , yes, please make the leveling curve a little slower than eq was. I will probably curse you for it when I cannot get those final points to get my coveted spells, but I know it will be for the best.
B.T.W. DRUIDS WILL RULE
Liav said:Wow, this thread is horribly detached from reality. One to several years for a casual to hit max level? Enjoy playing a game with 6 people.
If it takes any longer than a month for the hardest core players to hit cap, the average casual will probably just quit. I agree that it shouldn't take 2 days, but let's be real here. You're suggesting we take EQ's 1999 leveling curve and multiply the amount of xp required by ten times or more.
When I stated a year...that was my goal for ME, noone else, just so its not confusing anyone. :) And that I refuse to treat the game as a job, no sleep trying to hit level cap. There are more important things to discover..than the level grind..again FOR ME. *wink*
Cana
philo said:All need to be taken into account. That was already mentioned. Otherwise you aren't getting a good representation of the playerbase. By picking one you miss the big picture. haha I'm so used to repeating myself talking to you.
I feel the same way, as far as repeating goes.
This thread ultimately serves no purpose.
While I think everyone's opinions are valid here, I worry that we're fixating too much on the pace of progression and not enough on the things that players actually will be doing to progress.
It's just that I feel like psychologically we all get focused on the levels but what really matters once we get in game is the content. If we are being both challenged and entertained, most of us will likely be surprised when that *DING* happens and we level up. We'll say "oh, wow, already?!" But on the other hand, if we're a little bit bored, we're probably looking at that experience bar and saying "ugh, hurry up already, I want to try some different content".
So again... I'm all for slow progression, but that also means the content needs to be very compelling. Where I think so-called casuals will start leaving is if progression is slow/grindy AND they aren't having fun while trying to progress. I hope that makes sense :)
Nephele said:While I think everyone's opinions are valid here, I worry that we're fixating too much on the pace of progression and not enough on the things that players actually will be doing to progress.
It's just that I feel like psychologically we all get focused on the levels but what really matters once we get in game is the content. If we are being both challenged and entertained, most of us will likely be surprised when that *DING* happens and we level up. We'll say "oh, wow, already?!" But on the other hand, if we're a little bit bored, we're probably looking at that experience bar and saying "ugh, hurry up already, I want to try some different content".
So again... I'm all for slow progression, but that also means the content needs to be very compelling. Where I think so-called casuals will start leaving is if progression is slow/grindy AND they aren't having fun while trying to progress. I hope that makes sense :)
Looking forward to some of the systems within Pantheon, such as Perception, that means exploring every nook and cranny, also might mean slow levelling ..but so what? :) You and I seem to agree alot in our opinions Nephele. :) Here's to the Journey! Cheers! :)
Cana
Nephele said:While I think everyone's opinions are valid here, I worry that we're fixating too much on the pace of progression and not enough on the things that players actually will be doing to progress.
It's just that I feel like psychologically we all get focused on the levels but what really matters once we get in game is the content. If we are being both challenged and entertained, most of us will likely be surprised when that *DING* happens and we level up. We'll say "oh, wow, already?!" But on the other hand, if we're a little bit bored, we're probably looking at that experience bar and saying "ugh, hurry up already, I want to try some different content".
So again... I'm all for slow progression, but that also means the content needs to be very compelling. Where I think so-called casuals will start leaving is if progression is slow/grindy AND they aren't having fun while trying to progress. I hope that makes sense :)
This is what happens when i get into a game and also this ....
Grizzly shout's out loud "Crap the clock is allready 3AM crap 4 hour sleep again ****"
CanadinaXegony said:Liav said:Wow, this thread is horribly detached from reality. One to several years for a casual to hit max level? Enjoy playing a game with 6 people.
If it takes any longer than a month for the hardest core players to hit cap, the average casual will probably just quit. I agree that it shouldn't take 2 days, but let's be real here. You're suggesting we take EQ's 1999 leveling curve and multiply the amount of xp required by ten times or more.
When I stated a year...that was my goal for ME, noone else, just so its not confusing anyone. :) And that I refuse to treat the game as a job, no sleep trying to hit level cap. There are more important things to discover..than the level grind..again FOR ME. *wink*
Cana
I am with you Cana! I think everyone who looks at this thread is looking at their own play style and making a judgement. I don't mind it taking me a year to hit max level as long as they make the gameplay leveling and grouping diverse and fun all the way....if it takes me a year of nothing but grinding in the same dungeons to keep up... I already work and go to school over 80 hours per week. I don't need another part time job on top of it!
Liav said:philo said:All need to be taken into account. That was already mentioned. Otherwise you aren't getting a good representation of the playerbase. By picking one you miss the big picture. haha I'm so used to repeating myself talking to you.
I feel the same way, as far as repeating goes.
This thread ultimately serves no purpose.
Actually - the purpose it serves is to give the VR guys an idea of what folks are thinking about the topic (assuming they read it). Pretty much the same as all of our threads.
philo said:Rubezahl said:These type of threads concern me because I feel like we are putting an arbritrary number on what has a ton of variables. I don't mind a good long leveling system, but if those guys that race to the end and demand new content end up pushing content releases at a rate that the general population cannot keep up with, eventually people will get tired of chasing a moving finish line.
Don't get me wrong. Make it a journey... but if I only *lol* play 2-3 hours a day, I shouldn't have to put my nose to the grindstone and do nothing but leveling for over a year to reach max level... it isn't a game. That's a part time job.
There is no "finish line" unless you run out of content. Hopefully systems like progeny or AA will be instated to stall the "running out of content" line. All of the content will be there for everyone in their own time. It doesn't go anywhere. (assuming it isn't implemented like sleepers...but that is an outlier.)
Everyone has a finish line eventually. It might not mean you completely stop running. But everyone has their own end game, especially casuals. Because someone like me didn't raid much because I didn't have time to level AND gear for it... you have to set other goals for yourself in game. It might be leveling first.. and then maxing out some tradeskills... perhaps reaching a certain level of money. But everyone has a goal that they are striving for. The most general goal is typically the level cap. And someone who never reaches that level cap and you keep moving that goal away from them. Now I agree that they can't wait for everyone... absolutely. But you can't base it on the guy that plays 8 hours a day because most adults that want this type of game will not have that kind of time to sink.
If you don't want to scare the casual players away by making the leveling a long process, then you have to have enough for them to do in those mid levels. I dont want to grind the same dungeon a hundred times to hit 31. I wouldn't mind spending months between 30-40 if I had enough variation to keep me distracted from my XP bar.
patboy19 said:If you don't want to scare the casual players away by making the leveling a long process, then you have to have enough for them to do in those mid levels. I dont want to grind the same dungeon a hundred times to hit 31. I wouldn't mind spending months between 30-40 if I had enough variation to keep me distracted from my XP bar.
While I know Brad has said he doesn't want Pantheon to be a game where you just camp mobs in dungeons (pretty sure I remember that) - One of the things I always liked about EQ was that there were enough camps across the game world where I never really felt like I was doing the same thing day in and day out... but that was just my perspective.
patboy19 said:If you don't want to scare the casual players away by making the leveling a long process, then you have to have enough for them to do in those mid levels. I dont want to grind the same dungeon a hundred times to hit 31. I wouldn't mind spending months between 30-40 if I had enough variation to keep me distracted from my XP bar.
On top of having enough to do as far as exp camps, mid lvl raid should do a lot to help break up the leveling process.