letsdance said:dorotea said:"social" selling forces me to either spend far more time than they are worth or just dump themyes, that's a decision! good games are about hard decisions! and not just following the trampled path down to the AH to dump your items mindlessly 1 silver piece cheaper than whatever is currently the cheapest price.
In fairness, there isn't really any more thought involved in this than just undercutting another player you see trying to sell the same item in /auction. This happens all the time. At which point you just "mindlessly" spam Shift+Up+Enter until someone sends you a tell.
letsdance said:Nanfoodle said:Its not the same thing for one reason. There is one part of the game that is less fun then any other. A part of the game we wish we never had to do. Inventory management. When you have been gaming for a week or two and you have piles of crafting goods, blue drops and many other items that need to go. Who wants to spend hours organizing them? Yelling about them? Taking time looking up what’s a fair price for each item? With an AH you can take 5 seconds on each item to see what the going price is and just post it. Then go back to gaming. This has nothing to do with breaking down other systems like group finder. If you don’t see that, you don’t get why people want an AH.how much fun any part of the game is, is subjective. a friend of mine loves inventory management. preferably path of exiles style with different item sizes so you have to calculate value per size. altough i did not trade in EQ, i liked the ec tunnel atmosphere. let those get the cash who are willing to spend time for it, and let those level up faster who spend more time with that. the AH fits a bit into the "give everyone everything" mentality.
yes it has nothing to do with a groupfinder, but it does just the same =) as you said, it saves you time for something that would otherwise require time. other examples are fast travel, shared bank, sending items per mail etc.
i'm not opposed to an AH in general, but i see too many small issues, where pantheon moves away from being an EQ style game (which is what i expected), to pleasing the crowds. this is one of them.
You are forgetting that there was a lot of social selling in EQ even after the Bazaar was launched. On my EQ server there was a Bazaar chat channel that was dedicated to social selling and people would meet up in the Bazaar to close the deal. I remember talking to loads of people who were looking to sell items and when I was looking to sell or buy items. Having a local auction house won't destroy social selling. It certainly didn't in EQ.
but EQ bazaar is very different from auction house. i like the bazaar, because it's pretty much the same as direct trading. i know the lotro AH and yes, people are also trading in channels, but that's like 1% of all trades. in any case, my issue is not the AH by itself. it's the fact that they added a feature that exists solely to make content (trading in this case) accessible more easily and less time consuming, so "everyone" can do it.
i was hoping that the game offers enough content so you can be happy without participating in everything it offers. i'm totally fine without crafting if it's cumbersome. i'm totally fine without trading if it works EQ style. let those do it who are willing to invest time and reap the rewards for that. "it's not a game for everyone". then why should every feature in it be for everyone? let everyone play the way they prefer, but let that have different consequences. the trader may be rich, and the crafter may be renown and the dungeon grinder reaches the maximum level first. sounds fine to me, and now everyone has their own distinctive character.
Liav said:In fairness, there isn't really any more thought involved in this than just undercutting another player you see trying to sell the same item in /auction. This happens all the time. At which point you just "mindlessly" spam Shift+Up+Enter until someone sends you a tell.in the AH you always find everything. without AH, chances are alot higher that no one else is selling the same item at the same time. or that someone haggles.
letsdance said:i was hoping that the game offers enough content so you can be happy without participating in everything it offers. i'm totally fine without crafting if it's cumbersome. i'm totally fine without trading if it works EQ style. let those do it who are willing to invest time and reap the rewards for that. "it's not a game for everyone". then why should every feature in it be for everyone? let everyone play the way they prefer, but let that have different consequences. the trader may be rich, and the crafter may be renown and the dungeon grinder reaches the maximum level first. sounds fine to me, and now everyone has their own distinctive character.
This is one of the things that bothered me about the later expansions of Warcraft. It felt like I was spending half my play time managing all the different systems in the game. Unfortunately it also felt like those systems were not optional.
My hope is that Pantheon makes these "systems" not only optional, but also fun enough that if I want to participate I don't mind spending my gaming time doing so.
letsdance said:Liav said:In fairness, there isn't really any more thought involved in this than just undercutting another player you see trying to sell the same item in /auction. This happens all the time. At which point you just "mindlessly" spam Shift+Up+Enter until someone sends you a tell.in the AH you always find everything. without AH, chances are alot higher that no one else is selling the same item at the same time. or that someone haggles.
I've mentioned it before in other threads like this, but there would almost certainly be a trade forum or some kind of external way to search for items and whatnot. The internet just isn't the same as it was back in 1999. There are a lot of talented webdevs and such that play games like this that are more than capable of doing it.
Not to mention that plenty of haggling occurs in games with auction houses. I see people spamming WTS/WTB all the time in games that have auction houses.
i think you overestimate how many people would use the trade forum. in many cases it's not worth the effort. the big difference is that you still need to meet the person in game, while in the AH you don't even have to be online at the same time. therefore it's also not the same in respect to undercutting prices. usually you'll pay more to get the item immediately, instead of hoping that the seller one some website still has it, and is actually going to sell to you for that price within reasonable time.
Frankly, with the small team working on Pantheon, the danger of major issues getting created from hacking, bots and other means of code based cheating nags at me. One of the most nefarious cheating tools that modern MMOs battle are bots and cheats gaming their super advanced, instant-access anywhere, global, insta-sell market systems.
Hacking tools of this nature allow cheaters to essentially use "arbitrage" techniques to manipulate and corrupt player exchanges.
With all game items (well almost everything) being tradable, the gold farming and item-selling for cash will exist and depending on how hackable and how popular the game becomes will determine how pervasive the corruption will be. Most if not all of this type of activity will not manifest until the game reaches a release point. Hackers use alpah's and beta's to tweak their tools, but not wreaking the market and exposing themselves.
Creating regional markets may help the immersion, but I doubt it will stop this pattern of cheating. If anything it will help it by allowing those monitoring multiple market exchanges to constantly buy low and sell high from multiple locations.
Even with no cheating, players that like to play the "economy" game will be sitting watching lets say 3 accounts with characters on all 3 markets. Constantly scanning price changes and trying to buy low at market A, and sell high on Market B. Or simple trying to corner the market on some resource, to simply sell later during high demand periods such as weekends and so forth.
This kind of economy manipulation has been around since I first went online in 96' with UO. And has only gotten vastly more advanced and automated these days.
I doubt it can be defeated anymore and frankly with the wide open monetization of modern MMOs most games are simply embracing it or profiting from now.
I think only the truely organic market (EC tunnel) is the purest and hardest for hackers and market manipulators to control. I would be interested in seeing if Pantheon could function with that style of item trading.
Kilsin keeps on mentioning how the trading system in place on launch will be so augmented, we won't recognize it. Apparantly, it may deal with most if not all of our worries regarding an auction house. Now that we are hearing phrases like "localized auction houses" in the streams, I hope further details come soon. Specifically:
1. Assuming the auction houses will be localized as stated clearly on the stream: On the likelihood that most players find one or two central locations to do their trading, what are the plans, if any, for an auction house that gets left behind and sees little to no trade?
2. Do you plan on making the auction house SO inconvenient that players actually explore other means of trading, such as the player stalls/stores mentioned in the stream, or over the chat?
3. Do you plan on making the auction house..not automated? Can we expect some system where the players run the auctioning?
4. If the answer to that last question is no: May we see localized, automated, systems for other social activities beyond trading, like grouping, despite previous VR statements seemingly against the idea?
Liav said:letsdance said:Liav said:In fairness, there isn't really any more thought involved in this than just undercutting another player you see trying to sell the same item in /auction. This happens all the time. At which point you just "mindlessly" spam Shift+Up+Enter until someone sends you a tell.in the AH you always find everything. without AH, chances are alot higher that no one else is selling the same item at the same time. or that someone haggles.I've mentioned it before in other threads like this, but there would almost certainly be a trade forum or some kind of external way to search for items and whatnot. The internet just isn't the same as it was back in 1999. There are a lot of talented webdevs and such that play games like this that are more than capable of doing it.
Not to mention that plenty of haggling occurs in games with auction houses. I see people spamming WTS/WTB all the time in games that have auction houses.
I disagree, even if such a website rose up and EVERYONE used it...(and none of it's competition) You would still need to communicate in game to finalize the trade. You might even haggle or build relationships on the website itself depending on how it works.
In addition, I imagine there are many hardcore play ideas VR has which can be circumvented somewhat by websites online...Such as websites to facilitate grouping, with things like gear scores and the whole shebang.
The point that people might circumvent anything online, when VR themselves said they don't care about online maps, is, IMO, moot, so long as complicated macros and mods remain illegal.
P.S. I've never haggled, on the auction house, nor had anyone attempt to do it with me. The closest I've gotten is pms complaining about jacking the price some way or the other (depending on if the pmer is buying or selling). People only seem to resort to WTS/WTB with auction houses if they are desparate (haven't gotten what they needed from the auction house in a VERY long time) far as I can tell. Either that or they just make the message once after putting the thing on the AH to make sure folks know it's there. AH just doesn't strike me as social as a required trade chat barter system, or even a bazaar system.
letsdance said:i was hoping that the game offers enough content so you can be happy without participating in everything it offers. i'm totally fine without crafting if it's cumbersome. i'm totally fine without trading if it works EQ style. let those do it who are willing to invest time and reap the rewards for that. "it's not a game for everyone". then why should every feature in it be for everyone? let everyone play the way they prefer, but let that have different consequences. the trader may be rich, and the crafter may be renown and the dungeon grinder reaches the maximum level first. sounds fine to me, and now everyone has their own distinctive character.
I feel the exact same way. I'm not into trading, I don't have the patience for it and to me that's fine, it can have consequences as far as I'm concerned. To me an auction house eliminates those natural consequences and by doing that, it pretty much nullifies it as a true gaming aspect. Trade becomes a mere feature, very convenient but also shallow. There's no personal investment and therefore no personally earned reward.
I understand that to many, going out in the world, obtaining something and putting it in an AH to have it sold while they can do other things, does seem like the fair reward. But to me they are two different aspects of a game, and should both be approached as such, instead of having the gain from one automatically being a gain in the other. Personally I feel the minute you make something very convenient and straightforward, it usually loses a lot of its depth.
I hope VR manages to give auction houses a new meaning and am perfectly willing just to wait and see what they've come up with. I'm curious. Slightly worried too tho, as I perfectly understand that to many trade as an important aspect of the game matters a great deal. It's not just about making plat (or whatever the currency will be :)).
zewtastic said:This kind of economy manipulation has been around since I first went online in 96' with UO. And has only gotten vastly more advanced and automated these days.
I doubt it can be defeated anymore and frankly with the wide open monetization of modern MMOs most games are simply embracing it or profiting from now.
I think only the truely organic market (EC tunnel) is the purest and hardest for hackers and market manipulators to control. I would be interested in seeing if Pantheon could function with that style of item trading.
I think you're dead wrong there. AH don't create market manipulation, they merely facilitate it. Without an AH, what's to stop a player or group of players from going around, identifying hot items, buying them all up and reselling at speculative prices? It may be harder to do than with an AH, but it's doable, and the rewards are even potentially higher because the lack of an AH also makes it harder for buyers to get a sense of whether a price is being jacked.
ESO had no central AH, although it wasn't purely a player-to-player model either. Guilds could hire traders for a week and use them as small, local AHs. Only guild members could sell there, but anyone could buy. This had a number of negative impacts:
- One zone was clearly the highest-traffic zone, so all the big trading guilds set up shop there; another 2 or 3 locations (namely faction capitals) were decent, but not nearly as good; and the rest of the game world was essentially ignored.
- Despite the lack of a central AH, it wasn't that hard to hit the top 10-20 guild traders, buy up all of a fast-selling item and reposting it at a hefty profit. I remember seeing ordinary crafting materials disappear from the market, only to come up for 5x the normal price.
It is clear to me that AH and healthy economy are concepts that may touch, but are NOT synonymous. If you want to prevent speculation you'll need other tools such as long cooldowns between buying an item and reselling it, something in the order of weeks. This means owning up to the fact that the purpose of Pantheon's market is to allow players to find items TO USE, and that playing the market isn't something that is officially supported. I don't know if VR are willing to go there, and I'm certain some people would be upset if they did since they consider playing the market a valid aspect of gameplay.
I am actually happy that VR is trying to reach some middleground on this topic. I loved the feeling that there was a community of traders in EQ, but honestly I dreaded the time I had to spend auctioning the few wares that I had. It wasn't "trading" or "haggling" for me that defined the experience. It was being a faceless spammer, which was like a nagging strain on the heart of both me and the character I had developed. I am looking forward to testing this proposed system.
I would hope to see a couple of things implemented.
1) Tax rates calculated as a function of market share. If the auctionhouse on the top of the volcano is never used, then the tax rate should be proportionately scaled down, and maybe you'll get some circles of traders using the volcano AH for its low tax rate. If the thronefast auctionhouse makes up 90% of the total auctionhouse use, then the greedy royalty would be silly not to increase the taxes.
2) Buy orders as well as sell orders. This really helps in situations where supply is low compared to the number of goods available, which is an issue that is exacerbated by local trade centers.
3) Variable prices on common vendor goods by region. If exotic glass goods are commonly found in the Dark Myr areas because of an abundance of corresponding natural resources, then it would be nice to see those natural resource be less expensive in those regions. Plain silk thread should cost 10 silver pieces from the vendor close to where it is made, but should cost 20 silver pieces from the vendor 5 zones away.
I think these kinds of things would add to the feel of a regional living system.
I didn't realize how much I loved EC Tunnel in EQ until I was running through there after it was gone. It was an interesting moment. I was there for a few minutes thinking that something just felt... wrong... and then it hit me. It was empty. The emptiness... the quiet... was, in a word, unsettling. I remember feeling in that moment that something in EQ had died.
It might seem like an annoyance or a meaningless time sink, but one of the things I really used to like doing was collecting a bank full of stuff I thought would sell, planning a night, and heading to the tunnel to see what I could sell - and what I could buy. It was an extended experience, not just an experience of being in the tunnel. That is, getting a drop... putting it in the bank... watching my collection grow... figuring out what I thought I could afford to get if I got good prices for all of it. I never considered it time spent poorly... and was always amazed at how fast that night went (you would think that sort of time would drag - but it never did for me).
I would very much favor distinct auction zones - places where you went to sell so that the sales flooding your chat window weren't flooding the chat windows of people trying to hunt something...
For me - that experience is something I would love to see and do... even if it comes at the cost of losing the convience of what we all currently experience with modern MMO auction houses.
daemonios said: ... ESO had no central AH, although it wasn't purely a player-to-player model either. Guilds could hire traders for a week and use them as small, local AHs. Only guild members could sell there, but anyone could buy. This had a number of negative impacts:- One zone was clearly the highest-traffic zone, so all the big trading guilds set up shop there; another 2 or 3 locations (namely faction capitals) were decent, but not nearly as good; and the rest of the game world was essentially ignored.
- Despite the lack of a central AH, it wasn't that hard to hit the top 10-20 guild traders, buy up all of a fast-selling item and reposting it at a hefty profit. I remember seeing ordinary crafting materials disappear from the market, only to come up for 5x the normal price.
It is clear to me that AH and healthy economy are concepts that may touch, but are NOT synonymous. If you want to prevent speculation you'll need other tools such as long cooldowns between buying an item and reselling it, something in the order of weeks. This means owning up to the fact that the purpose of Pantheon's market is to allow players to find items TO USE, and that playing the market isn't something that is officially supported. I don't know if VR are willing to go there, and I'm certain some people would be upset if they did since they consider playing the market a valid aspect of gameplay.
Another possible solution is: non refundable listing fees, time limited sales and volume limited sales. This means each player can only have so many listings of so much duration, punitive enough to prevent what you're describing, and account-wide if necessary.
Add in travel to buy, (and grossly punitive delivery fees) and it would cut down and most of the 'cartel/monopoly stock market-esque' abuse.
Zikkar said:Standing in a Tunnel spamming a sell macro is NOT social interaction at all it is tetious and boring. They are going for a more get out and do stuff appraoch and I for one love it.
Your statement is an opinion, not a fact.
My experience (as stated above) was vastly different than your opinion implies.
Don't feel like using a side feature of the game (using killing/PvE as the "main" feature here), then you pay extra to circumvent it. Don't like/want to deal with spending time leveling crafting? Pay a crafter to make your stuff. Don't like to play the merchant/economic game and don't want to spend the time? Pay to have an AH sell your **** for you. Don't want to spend the time to travel across the world? Pay a Wizard or Druid to port you.
Auction Houses with a static 15-20% fee isn't as punishing as being made out or otherwise gutting anyones pockets. If you choose to spend time unloading your wares in person then you make more profit.
Depending on how you want to interpret the core tenets of the game, you shouldn't reap the same reward as someone playing merchant while using an AH: "An understanding that player involvement is required for progression. All actions (or lack thereof) should have consequences. Positive actions should be rewarded. Apathy or lack of action should not be rewarded with bonuses."
I don't think they should worry about the fact that people will set up trading forums outside of the game, that will happen no matter what and honestly isn't worth caring about.
daemonios said:I think you're dead wrong there. AH don't create market manipulation, they merely facilitate it. Without an AH, what's to stop a player or group of players from going around, identifying hot items, buying them all up and reselling at speculative prices? It may be harder to do than with an AH, but it's doable, and the rewards are even potentially higher because the lack of an AH also makes it harder for buyers to get a sense of whether a price is being jacked.
Either you have never played a real MMO where the world is actually large, or are too used to instant-travel hand-holding MMOs, because no "group" of players is going to be running around causing economy craziness. If someone wants to put in the hard work to just be a market mover then all power to them, that would be an organic motivated activity. And someone might be successful at it until someone else noticed and started the same thing. But it would be a natural process. AH just allow easy control and manipulation. Too easy.
Do crazy flucuations occur with item prices from organic markets? Yes. It can be purely an issue of necessity or raw availability though, but it is usually more about which players are willing to simply put the work in to have the product and actively market it.
What happens in some situation is player A is in Guk , gets a drop that is lore (meaning you can only have one of it) does not want to leave the group and/or camp and knows they may get another drop of the same tem, player A auctions to a chat channel that he has the item for sale immediately but you have to come and get it where he is. In that situation you might get a nice price break.
Wandidar said:Zikkar said:Standing in a Tunnel spamming a sell macro is NOT social interaction at all it is tetious and boring. They are going for a more get out and do stuff appraoch and I for one love it.
Your statement is an opinion, not a fact.
My experience (as stated above) was vastly different than your opinion implies.
Going to have to go with Wandidar here. Unless you actually have played a game with a true organic market like EQ1 (and I am not aware of any other), you have no argument to make, you have never experienced it. Is it less convenient? Yes. Can it be tedious and sometimes boring? Yes. Is it more immersive? Yes. Does it lead to more social interaction? 100% Yes.
Zikkar said:Standing in a Tunnel spamming a sell macro is NOT social interaction at all it is tetious and boring. They are going for a more get out and do stuff appraoch and I for one love it.
I have yet to hear any of the EC Tunnel people state that this "spamming of a sell macro" is specifically what they want.
They want social interaction. It is always the pro-AH people that keep saying this, and referring to there requested for "social interaction" as "spamming chat with WTS, WTB"
I'm of the belief it's the Gathering of people they're looking for. It's all the people in the same place with an active chat channel. And that is indeed social intetaction... it's one big party. The channel itself does not have to have WTS or WTB in it.
zewtastic said:daemonios said:I think you're dead wrong there. AH don't create market manipulation, they merely facilitate it. Without an AH, what's to stop a player or group of players from going around, identifying hot items, buying them all up and reselling at speculative prices? It may be harder to do than with an AH, but it's doable, and the rewards are even potentially higher because the lack of an AH also makes it harder for buyers to get a sense of whether a price is being jacked.
Either you have never played a real MMO where the world is actually large, or are too used to instant-travel hand-holding MMOs, because no "group" of players is going to be running around causing economy craziness. If someone wants to put in the hard work to just be a market mover then all power to them, that would be an organic motivated activity. And someone might be successful at it until someone else noticed and started the same thing. But it would be a natural process. AH just allow easy control and manipulation. Too easy.
...
The two points daemonios made are:
1) The organic market can be manipulated - You agreed with that point by saying that individuals (and by extension groups) can be "market movers", which is the same as "market manipulators".
2) The AH makes it easier to manipulate markets - You agreed with that point directly by saying "AH just allow easy control and manipulation. Too easy."
So if you completely agree with daemonios, why would you denegrate his/her MMO credentials? It feels like you're picking a fight for no reason.
zewtastic said:Either you have never played a real MMO where the world is actually large, or are too used to instant-travel hand-holding MMOs, because no "group" of players is going to be running around causing economy craziness. If someone wants to put in the hard work to just be a market mover then all power to them, that would be an organic motivated activity. And someone might be successful at it until someone else noticed and started the same thing. But it would be a natural process. AH just allow easy control and manipulation. Too easy.
Do crazy flucuations occur with item prices from organic markets? Yes. It can be purely an issue of necessity or raw availability though, but it is usually more about which players are willing to simply put the work in to have the product and actively market it.
What happens in some situation is player A is in Guk , gets a drop that is lore (meaning you can only have one of it) does not want to leave the group and/or camp and knows they may get another drop of the same tem, player A auctions to a chat channel that he has the item for sale immediately but you have to come and get it where he is. In that situation you might get a nice price break.
It's true I don't have the EQ experience many here have. But I insist it's naïve to think that people won't form (in-game) worldwide guilds for the purpose of gaming the market. It's very clear that this aspect of the game appeals to many players. You can dismiss it as an organic market, but inflation is inflation however you colour it. Playing the market and making huge profits devalues the in-game currency and inflates the cost of items. It hits new or casual players particularly hard, as they will have a tough time finding their feet in an over-inflated economy.
In the end it comes down to the developers' decision. Much of this discussion is a matter of opinion, but I still firmly believe that one issue is player engagement / time spent, and another, separate issue is regulating the in-game economy. As for the first issue, I for one would prefer not to have to take out an evening's play time to stand on some spot spamming trade chat (although it's perfectly valid if people enjoy doing it). If some sort of AH doesn't materialize, I suspect I won't be much of a trader, but I can live with that. As for the second issue, the devs will have to choose whether they want organic markets, along with market failures, or regulated markets that serve a wider purpose instead of being an objective in and of themselves.
Zorkon said:Zikkar said:Standing in a Tunnel spamming a sell macro is NOT social interaction at all it is tetious and boring. They are going for a more get out and do stuff appraoch and I for one love it.
I have yet to hear any of the EC Tunnel people state that this "spamming of a sell macro" is specifically what they want.
They want social interaction. It is always the pro-AH people that keep saying this, and referring to there requested for "social interaction" as "spamming chat with WTS, WTB"
I'm of the belief it's the Gathering of people they're looking for. It's all the people in the same place with an active chat channel. And that is indeed social intetaction... it's one big party. The channel itself does not have to have WTS or WTB in it.
Yeah - saying it is spamming macro's HINTS to me that the person never really did it (although they may have). It was SO much more than that. For sure, you would type in your list of sales and wants in a quick macro and push it... but that was nothing more really than a conversation OPENER with other people.
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Player A (macro): /OOC WTS Zarkon's Blade, 2500pp; Mystical Mightstone 5000pp. WTB Xaerron's Robes 8000pp
Player B: /Tell Player A I don't have 2500pp for the Zarkon's Blade, but would you take 500pp and a Brutal Glaive?
Player C: /Tell Player A I have Xaerron's Robes. How about 8500pp?
Player D: /Tell Player A Would you take 4500pp for the Mightstone?
Player A: /Tell Player B Sure thing! Meet me at T2! (meet and make the sale)
Player A: /Tell Player D How about we split the difference... 4750pp?
Player D: /Tell Player A No thanks... thanks anyway!
Player A: /Tell player C How about 8000pp plus a Brutal Glaive?
Player C: /Tell player A I guess, meet me at T1. (go to T1, pay for and get your robes)
Player A (macro): /OOC WTS Mystical Mightstone, 5000pp
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And THAT is a fairly realistic example of life in the tunnel when you went to buy and sell. It was fast paced, it was dynamic. You could make great deals. You could lose great deals because you just couldn't quite get enough money (or items to trade that the seller wanted). If all you did was sit there and spam... well, you weren't really there.
daemonios said:zewtastic said:Either you have never played a real MMO where the world is actually large, or are too used to instant-travel hand-holding MMOs, because no "group" of players is going to be running around causing economy craziness. If someone wants to put in the hard work to just be a market mover then all power to them, that would be an organic motivated activity. And someone might be successful at it until someone else noticed and started the same thing. But it would be a natural process. AH just allow easy control and manipulation. Too easy.
Do crazy flucuations occur with item prices from organic markets? Yes. It can be purely an issue of necessity or raw availability though, but it is usually more about which players are willing to simply put the work in to have the product and actively market it.
What happens in some situation is player A is in Guk , gets a drop that is lore (meaning you can only have one of it) does not want to leave the group and/or camp and knows they may get another drop of the same tem, player A auctions to a chat channel that he has the item for sale immediately but you have to come and get it where he is. In that situation you might get a nice price break.
It's true I don't have the EQ experience many here have. But I insist it's naïve to think that people won't form (in-game) worldwide guilds for the purpose of gaming the market. It's very clear that this aspect of the game appeals to many players. You can dismiss it as an organic market, but inflation is inflation however you colour it. Playing the market and making huge profits devalues the in-game currency and inflates the cost of items. It hits new or casual players particularly hard, as they will have a tough time finding their feet in an over-inflated economy.
In the end it comes down to the developers' decision. Much of this discussion is a matter of opinion, but I still firmly believe that one issue is player engagement / time spent, and another, separate issue is regulating the in-game economy. As for the first issue, I for one would prefer not to have to take out an evening's play time to stand on some spot spamming trade chat (although it's perfectly valid if people enjoy doing it). If some sort of AH doesn't materialize, I suspect I won't be much of a trader, but I can live with that. As for the second issue, the devs will have to choose whether they want organic markets, along with market failures, or regulated markets that serve a wider purpose instead of being an objective in and of themselves.
A group of people that want to join together to attempt cornering the market will find a way to make that attempt regardless of whether or not there is an AH or a more organic market system in the game, no? I could be wrong.
Wandidar said:A group of people that want to join together to attempt cornering the market will find a way to make that attempt regardless of whether or not there is an AH or a more organic market system in the game, no? I could be wrong.
Yes. That is what I've been saying, because one of the main arguments against an AH is that it creates market distortions, which is only a part of the story. So again, yes, if people are willing, they will find a way to try and corner the market. If that is not intended or desired, VR will have to implement mechanisms to deal with that: resale cooldowns, sales taxes, limited listings, etc.